Question for the A&Ps

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
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How did you do it? School/Apprentice?

I want to get my license but not really sure how or what classes to take. the community college offers several A&P courses but I'm pretty sure I don't need all of them for a license. I'm an idiot when it comes to avionics but pretty handy when it comes to engines and airframe. Just not really sure which path to take. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years prior to cross-training to ATC. Back then the "P" portion was a slam dunk for those who took it and the "A" portion required going to some month long class to learn how to cut, form, rivet and weld aluminum. I'm sure it has changed drastically since then.

Just wondering how to get started.

Tim
 
2 year school....full time at the local community college. Turbine engines was a small portion of the practical and written tests....but you'll have a nice start.

Start studying AC 43.13 1b.....you'll need to know every chapter well.
 
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Seems like getting paid to learn as a apprentice, beats paying to learn, plus it's as real world as you can get.

Just got to find a good shop who is willing.
 
James331 said:
Seems like getting paid to learn as a apprentice, beats paying to learn, plus it's as real world as you can get.

Just got to find a good shop who is willing.
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That would beat relocating for school and burning a lot of money.
 
usually those programs require taking everything.....vs ala carte. But, you should call and talk with the lead instructor and see if any of your OJT counts.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I already hold a bachelor's degree (which I'll never use) so I meet the pre-requisites of this program: https://www.pima.edu/programs-cours...ation-technology/aviation-technology-aas.html

So.....do I just take all the air frame and power plant courses or do I need to take the structural repair and avionics technician classes as well?
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What do you want to do with the A&P?


Specialties:

Structures - Sheet metal and composites

Wiring/Install - Remove/Install avionics and harness

Avionics Line - Typically perform 91 required checks "on-wing" and troubleshoot any system asked for advice.

NDT - Inspections via Eddy Current, Ultrasound, Dye Penetrant, X-Ray, Magnetic Particle etc. (Some are A&P but I think most aren't. NDT is it's own industry)

Engine Shop - Tear down, inspect and overhaul engines.

Engine Line - Perform "on-wing" maintenance

Airframe, does a little of everything. I worked nights a lot and that's were you get stuck rounding up equipment and performing inspection tasks and function tests.
 
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James331 said:
Seems like getting paid to learn as a apprentice, beats paying to learn, plus it's as real world as you can get.

Just got to find a good shop who is willing.
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Yep, reality is if you are a mechanically inclined person, you can easily get a job as an unlicensed mechanic working for some FBO or operator under their supervision making better than minimum wage, but not a whole lot.:lol: (I did get a free place to keep my plane and free maint and a fair bit of fuel, plus I still had my job on Catalina that tipped really well, so I never complained one bit.) Over the course of the next 30 months you study for your writtens and get them done a year or so down the road. Then at the end of the 30 months you take a quicky course to prep you for the practice exam, turn in your service documentation from your boss, and the FAA signs you off to test.
 
I simply want to be able to do all my own maintenance on my own airplane and if I can help some friends keep their airplanes in the air I'd like to do that too. So Brian as an answer to your questions:

Structures - Sheet metal and composites - Yes

Wiring/Install - Remove/Install avionics and harness - Not so much

Avionics Line - Typically perform 91 required checks "on-wing" and troubleshoot any system asked for advice. - not at all

NDT - Inspections via Eddy Current, Ultrasound, Dye Penetrant, X-Ray, Magnetic Particle etc. (Some are A&P but I think most aren't. NDT is it's own industry) - No

Engine Shop - Tear down, inspect and overhaul engines. - Maybe

Engine Line - Perform "on-wing" maintenance - Yes
 
Timbeck2 said:
I simply want to be able to do all my own maintenance on my own airplane and if I can help some friends keep their airplanes in the air I'd like to do that too. So Brian as an answer to your questions:

Structures - Sheet metal and composites - Yes

Wiring/Install - Remove/Install avionics and harness - Not so much

Avionics Line - Typically perform 91 required checks "on-wing" and troubleshoot any system asked for advice. - not at all

NDT - Inspections via Eddy Current, Ultrasound, Dye Penetrant, X-Ray, Magnetic Particle etc. (Some are A&P but I think most aren't. NDT is it's own industry) - No

Engine Shop - Tear down, inspect and overhaul engines. - Maybe

Engine Line - Perform "on-wing" maintenance - Yes
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For a "personal use" A&P the only thing that makes sense is your local community college evening program. For the cost of going through a full time professional A&P program to save on your own maint is unrecoverable for all intents and purposes. Between the cost and lost income you can pay someone else to do it.

In fact, for doing owner maint there is no need to have an A&P at all, there is no problem with finding A&Ps who will work with you for way less than the cost of even the community college program.

If you want to learn though, the CC option is a nice one, but then so is partnering up with someone and building an experimental. If you have a partner, building an RV will teach you everything you want to know, and leave you with a cool plane at the end for not much more than you have in the Community College course in either time or money, and IIRC the FAA takes experience building experimentals towards the practical prerequite time to take the A&P license.
 
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Wana make a lot of money in a A&P school.. own the school.
 
Timbeck2 said:
How did you do it? School/Apprentice?

I want to get my license but not really sure how or what classes to take. the community college offers several A&P courses but I'm pretty sure I don't need all of them for a license. I'm an idiot when it comes to avionics but pretty handy when it comes to engines and airframe. Just not really sure which path to take. I was a jet engine mechanic for 10 years prior to cross-training to ATC. Back then the "P" portion was a slam dunk for those who took it and the "A" portion required going to some month long class to learn how to cut, form, rivet and weld aluminum. I'm sure it has changed drastically since then.

Just wondering how to get started.

Tim
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If your DD-214 shows a power plant related NEC/MOS the "P" is a slam dunk. FSDO will give you the letter to take the "P" & the "G" written. no matter how old the DD-214 is.
The "A" is either OJT or school. Your choice. (FAR 65)
 
I worked for a factory that built sailplanes and for a mechanic who did general aviation maintenence. After 30 months I got signoffs from the guy who ran each business and took the writtens...passed and took the practical. If you have good mechanical skills and pay attention you can go that way. Not sure if all that is still valid but it was in the 80s. Still have the A&P and use it for my own plane and those of others. The rating has helped with other work over the years too. Its worth doing but not at the expense level of a 2 or more year school.

Frank
 
bnt83 said:
Why not just buy an experimental? :dunno:
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Question for all...

Since I built my experimental and hold the repairmens cert for it. I seem to remember I might be able to expedite the A&P process??
True or false?
 
N801BH said:
Question for all...

Since I built my experimental and hold the repairmens cert for it. I seem to remember I might be able to expedite the A&P process??
True or false?
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depends....what your FSDO will allow.....:rolleyes:

I guarantee you didn't do half what's in the AC43.13 1b.....did you overhaul your engine? ....demonstrate knowledge for radial and turbine engines?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
depends....what your FSDO will allow.....:rolleyes:

I guarantee you didn't do half what's in the AC43.13 1b.....did you overhaul your engine? ....demonstrate knowledge for radial and turbine engines?
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I build my own motors.. Was a professional engine builder for years... Done radial stuff and have a basic knowledge of turbines... I am 100% sure I could pass any Airframe and Powerplant test.....
 
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N801BH said:
I build me own motors.. Was a professional engine builder for years... Done radial stuff and have a basic knowledge of turbines... I am 100% sure I could pass any Airframe and Powerplant test.....
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Well....sheeee....go for it. :D

but....all that was separate from your lil building project. :yes:

Read thru the handbooks I posted....and that'll give you an idea of the breadth of the knowledge required for all three tests.....regs are another ball of wax to be conquered too.
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
Well....sheeee....go for it. :D

but....all that was separate from your lil building project. :yes:
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Ha.....

4000 hours into it... And the FSFO watched the entire thing go together and they are IMPRESSED....

I am too old to change professions so the A&P no good for me.....

I have "heard" of (people) building experimentals and using that experience to fast track into a A&P though....
 
N801BH said:
Ha.....

4000 hours into it... And the FSFO watched the entire thing go together and they are IMPRESSED....

I am too old to change professions so the A&P no good for me.....

I have "heard" of (people) building experimentals and using that experience to fast track into a A&P though....
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It can be done....but some FSDOs are not as amenable as others....so, it's no guarantee. Your best bet is to get a "sponsor" IA (FSDO approved) to supervise you for a period of time....then take the written tests and practicles.
 
N801BH said:
I build my own motors.. Was a professional engine builder for years... Done radial stuff and have a basic knowledge of turbines... I am 100% sure I could pass any Airframe and Powerplant test.....
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That's a bet you'd lose. Everyone I know needed to study/memorize the test study guides.
 
N801BH said:
... I am 100% sure I could pass any Airframe and Powerplant test.....
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I'm sure you could Ben but that's not the hurdle, which is getting the FAA's permission to take the test. :rolleyes:
 
For anyone who wants to work in Aviation to make a living, I suggest that you find the job that is fun doing, Do it well work out of your own building/garage/work shop.
I know of several people doing this, one works just on old antique mags, another does fabric only, another does rebuilds on Cessna wings, yet another does nothing but repair tube fuselages, Be very special, be very good. you will gain a reputation and your business will grow.

Most of this type work doesn't even require you be an A&P.
The parts are placed in service by A&Ps that declare airworthiness when installed.
 
N801BH said:
Question for all...

Since I built my experimental and hold the repairmens cert for it. I seem to remember I might be able to expedite the A&P process??
True or false?
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True, they count it towards the work experience, but you'lll probably need to go through one of the test prep classes that most the people going the work experience route take to fill in all the aircraft specific minutia that makes the tests. Go to the FSDO and see what they say.
 
N801BH said:
Question for all...

Since I built my experimental and hold the repairmens cert for it. I seem to remember I might be able to expedite the A&P process??
True or false?
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Ugh, so much misinformation.....

Appendix A-D of Part 147 contains all the relevant tasks. I uploaded a color coded document to sort through the required tasks. Basically Level 1 and 2 if you've walked past someone doing it, you qualified.

the FSIMS 8900.1 5-1135 said:
- http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2

A. Practical Experience. The practical experience must provide the applicant with basic knowledge of and skills in the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment used in aircraft construction, alteration, maintenance, and inspection.

C. Expectations. There is no expectation that an applicant be highly proficient in overhauls, major repairs, or major alterations in the minimum 18 months of experience.

G. Programs without Approval. Applicants who have not graduated from an FAA-approved AMTS or JSAMTCC A&P certification program must present documents from an employer, coworker, or other sources satisfactory to the Administrator to establish the required record of time and experience.

1) Applicants will document a proportionate amount of experience directly applicable to the certificate and ratings sought. The applicant must have verifiable experience in 50 percent of the subject areas listed for the rating sought (refer to part 147 appendices B, C, and D) in order to be eligible.

2) The FAA inspector must evaluate the documents submitted to determine the applicants’ eligibility for a test authorization.

3) There is no expiration for this eligibility.
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So, long story short - if have experience in 50 percent of the subject areas of Appendix A-D Part 147, then you qualify.

Facts are amazing things.

edit - before some smarty pants gets all huffy, the document titled Appendix A is actually Appendix A,B,C,D ;)
 

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GlennAB1 said:
I've heard of people that went to A&P school, that studied the test preps, and still failed the A&P exams.
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I'd say that most of my class never got their license. They got some government grant to pay them to go to school or it might have been a condition of their parole (ha ha). I could hear them playing video games in the back of the classroom. If something interested them they put away their I-Phones and participated but for the most part, I doubt they ever intended to get a job working on airplanes (thank goodness).

There's a lot of information and if you didn't take the tests immediately upon finishing the applicable sections and taken multiple practice tests to get familiar with the tricky questions, you could easily fail any of the tests.
 
N801BH said:
I build my own motors.. Was a professional engine builder for years... Done radial stuff and have a basic knowledge of turbines... I am 100% sure I could pass any Airframe and Powerplant test.....
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State the formula for finding the total resistance of a series parallel circuit.
 
Tom-D said:
State the formula for finding the total resistance of a series parallel circuit.
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one over one over R plus one over R....plus one over one over R plus one over R...

and in 38 years as an A&P and avionics tech I've never had to use that formula for anything.

I honestly can't imagine how anyone who wanted to pass the A&P exams could possibly fail. By the time you go through the study guides and get to the exam you pretty much know the answer to the question when it pops up just by the shape of it without even reading it. :rolleyes:
 
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