Question about long commercial cross-country requirement

[Kenny Phillips]

I do know the numbers, that's not a problem; I'll visit friends during my trip, which will far exceed the requirement.
So: does it matter if I stay overnight, and also give my friends rides during my stops?
Or should it just be one flight with the required distances and number of landings?
I think I'm OK with what I plan, but it's not an issue to change stuff.

 

[RussR]

Spirit/intent vs strict reading. Your scenario has enough differences from what the DPEs normally see that it will raise some questions as described.

Multiple days - should not be an issue. After all, you can log it on one line or log it on 3 or more lines depending on how you usually like to log.
Giving friends rides - this is a tricky one. It's my opinion that the trip in its entirety meets the spirit and intent of the regulations, however, it probably wouldn't pass muster with a DPE*. And that's simply because of the "a XC flight" language. While breaking the trip up into multiple days can still be called one flight, it's harder to argue that a "solo XC flight" where you stop for local flights with passengers can still be considered the same flight.

* Reason 182 why I am not a DPE. I think this would be a great trip to use to meet the intent of the requirement, but I just can't see it passing an "audit".

There are certainly other ways to make the logged flight acceptable.

 

[geezer]

Not the rules answer, but my DPE looked at the cross-country to total of more than 300 hours, and asked where I went.

Florida and Missouri to visit family, wife and 2 sons on board. He did not even check the length of the legs, and obviously the loops ended at home.


Edited to add:
My DPE was more interested in whether I flew outside my "Home airspace", and whether I had another pilot on board.
Other peripheral questions, how did I get my weather? Did I file flight plans, how many different airports did I stop at? I named at least 12.

He had a good picture of the experience I had acquired in those 300 hours

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Not the rules answer, but my DPE looked at the cross-country to total of more than 300 hours, and asked where I went.

Florida and Missouri to visit family, wife and 2 sons on board. He did not even check the length of the legs, and obviously the loops ended at home.

Can't have the family aboard for the commercial long CC!
I think I'll visit folks (and give rides) on the outbound leg; the inbound leg is plenty long, and I'll just make the required stops then.

 

[RussR]

Can't have the family aboard for the commercial long CC!
I think I'll visit folks (and give rides) on the outbound leg; the inbound leg is plenty long, and I'll just make the required stops then.

That is certainly the best and safest way to go.

The Commercial XC is not a "training" requirement, it's an "experience" requirement, and to me that means that it's something which "should" be obtained throughout the course of normal flying after getting your Private - which is exactly what you are doing. Yes, it can be a targeted "I'm going to do my Commercial XC trip now" but it's so much better when you're already doing a flight that meets, or almost meets the requirements (and can be adjusted to meet them). When I went for my Commercial, I already had several flights that more than met the requirement, and that's by far the preferable way to do it.

 

[asicer]

my DPE looked at the cross-country to total of more than 300 hours, and asked where I went.

I’d have asked too. Did you go the loooooong way around the globe?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Spirit/intent vs strict reading. Your scenario has enough differences from what the DPEs normally see that it will raise some questions as described.

Multiple days - should not be an issue. After all, you can log it on one line or log it on 3 or more lines depending on how you usually like to log.
Giving friends rides - this is a tricky one. It's my opinion that the trip in its entirety meets the spirit and intent of the regulations, however, it probably wouldn't pass muster with a DPE*. And that's simply because of the "a XC flight" language. While breaking the trip up into multiple days can still be called one flight, it's harder to argue that a "solo XC flight" where you stop for local flights with passengers can still be considered the same flight.

* Reason 182 why I am not a DPE. I think this would be a great trip to use to meet the intent of the requirement, but I just can't see it passing an "audit".

There are certainly other ways to make the logged flight acceptable.

I also see a problem with the rides. The regulatory language is, "One cross-country flight .."

The multi-day thing as constituting "one cross country flight" is pretty well established. The old orphaned Part 61 FAQ said, "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay." The same concept later found its way into a 2009 Chief Counsel opinion letter:

“There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.”​

So, for example, my long solo commercial cross country covered three days (if I had been thinking about the requirement, it would only have been one[*]).

But, especially considering the solo requirement, it's harder to say that

Day 1: AAA to BBB solo;​

Day 2: BBB to BBB with others on board;​

Day 3: BBB to CCC solo;​

is "one" cross country flight while solo. Even if the rides don't break up the cross country, the people on board breaks up the solo nature of it.

[*]

but it's so much better when you're already doing a flight that meets, or almost meets the requirements

That was mine. It was a business trip.

 

[bonefishpete]

Pick a nice day and knock it out solo.
Don’t complicate it.

 

[RussR]

Pick a nice day and knock it out solo.
Don’t complicate it.

See, that's where I disagree. Doing it on a "real" flight brings with it real pressures, real weather, real considerations that just flying 250 nm out and 250 nm back on a nice day doesn't get. It shows piloting ability beyond just normal training flights. If I was a DPE, I would much rather see applicants doing "real" flying than just flying to check off requirements.

 

[JOhnH]

See, that's where I disagree. Doing it on a "real" flight brings with it real pressures, real weather, real considerations that just flying 250 nm out and 250 nm back on a nice day doesn't get. It shows piloting ability beyond just normal training flights. If I was a DPE, I would much rather see applicants doing "real" flying than just flying to check off requirements.

On the other hand, flying to see friends and actually go somewhere and eve do extra personal trips sounds more to me like "real flying" whereas just flying a single roundtrip sounds more like checking off a box.

edit: Upon reading your post again, it sounds like we actually agree.

 

[DoubleD]

Don't log the local flights with friends.

 

[DGlaeser]

I have had commercial students do that, and it wasn’t an issue.
The friend rides are local - not part of the XC, so logging them should not be a problem.
The best way to be sure is talk to the DPE you plan to use and see what he/she says.

 

[flyingron]

The FAA is very lenient as to how you carve up or aggregate legs to make fligths. Overnight stops are fine.

 

[M20K]

As others have said, it should not be a problem. But if you get one of those DPEs that start wondering.... and you find yourself defending your flight per the Regs.

How far is the furthest friend or family that you're going to visit? If you went there first, would that meet the XC requirement? Maybe go there and be done with what the flight was for. Then take all the time you want heading home and visiting everyone.

 

[midlifeflyer]

but it's so much better when you're already doing a flight that meets, or almost meets the requirements

That was mine.

 

[WDD]

Don't you have to have the CFI along on the X Country ride?

 

[RussR]

Don't you have to have the CFI along on the X Country ride?

No, in fact until recently it HAD to be solo. Now they allow a CFI along as "insurance ballast", which IMO for a single engine airplane is the biggest crock of sheet ever invented. If a Commercial candidate can't successfully fly a XC by themselves, they clearly aren't ready to be a Commercial Pilot.

But it can still, and IM obvious O should, be flown solo.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Don't you have to have the CFI along on the X Country ride?

There are three commercial cross countries. Two of them are “training” flights. The third is solo. To use the commercial single as an example

20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—​

One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in daytime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;​

One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;​

The there’s the third

Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—​

One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point.​