Pre-buy Inspectors Responsibility

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Don't put words into my mouth, and stop twisting things to meet your agenda.
     
  2. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Then tell us what you feel is your responsibility.

    I feel we have a moral responsibility far beyond the FAA requirement.

    My agenda, right.
    like you throwing insults like the one above.
     
  3. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What if during the pre-buy inspection, you find a missing placard that is listed in the tcds? The one that every airplane has comes to mind - "This airplane must be operated in compliance with ....". Or another gotcha is a missing compass correction card.

    The aircraft is technically not airworthy (does not conform to the type design). There are lots of reasons for an aircraft to be considered not airworthy, not just the mechanical reasons.

    How many owners would run right out and get those items fixed before further flight?
     
  4. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Those type of discrepancies don't kill ya,, a cracked spar, corroded carry thru, or an engine making metal will.
    When I see any owner unwilling to repair this type of discrepancy, I'm asking my PMI to remove the airworthiness certificate.
    and I believe he would.
    Then the ferry pilot is on their own, fly it with out an AWC it's on them.
     
  5. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Tom-D:
    While I understand your reasoning, unless that owner operates the aircraft with your known disc it is highly unlikely your ASI will/can "pull the AWC." There are no FARs that prevent an owner from having an unairworthy aircraft, only operating an unairworthy aircraft. As you mentioned above: "There are so many derelicts setting on the ramp where would you start/stop?" none of those aircraft require their AWC to be pulled and never had to be. Unfortunately, morals/ethics and laws/regulations usually don't follow one another and it is a very slippery slope to try with the good guy rarely winning.
     
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    The FAA (fsdo) can and will pull the airworthiness certificates. they often pull the AWCs of aircraft that were involved in accidents. Then re-issue when the aircraft is proven to be airworthy again.
     
  7. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    They can and will, but at the demand of an overly empowered A&P? Nope, they have much bigger fish to fry. This is all covered in the FARs, and typically, since morals are not measured easily, you won't find the definition in Section 1 of 14 CFR either. If you are feeling the need to tell the FSDO (or whatever they call themselves now) about every deemed-by-you unairworthy aircraft, please find something else to do with your time, or stop accepting new clients.
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Do you believe I wouldn't have fully documented evidence when I contacted my PMI?
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    This discussion is absolutely fascinating.
     
  10. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Never said they couldn't. But if you're implying your local ASI can walk up to an aircraft, open the door, reach in and physically take the AWC, then I'm afraid you are mistaken. There is specific FAA policy against that. An ASI can't even enter your aircraft with you there unless you give them permission. Plus the fact an AWC may only be revoked, suspended, or surrendered and each has a specific FAA process to follow.

    The most an ASI can do at the FSDO level is issue a Condition Notice but that also requires a FSDO supervisor level decision. The ASI can't simply issue the Notice on the fly. And if the ASI is a operations guy he can't flag anything maintenance wise. He must wait for a maintenance ASI. So while you can bring it up to your FSDO there is a whole other process they must follow as the burden of proof of the unairworthy condition falls onto the FSDO not you the A&P. And as I said before, unless the owner/operator/pilot operates that aircraft in an unairworthy condition there is no violation.

    As for removing the AWC after an accident. Maybe in your end of town, but every wrecked/damaged aircraft I've ever bought always had its AWC otherwise I would not have bought it. I've seen the NTSB pull the certificates on the 135 side but returned them within a few days after they concluded their investigation. And besides the majority of AWCs are issued/reissued by DARs not ASIs and it would cause issues if the Feds "took" your AWC then made you pay to get it back.
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Not at all.
     
  12. Brad Smith

    Brad Smith Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It's very possible the seller will not know everything that is wrong with his aircraft when he puts it up for sale. If the prospective buyer or the pre-purchase inspector does not inform the aircraft owner of an unairwothy condition revealed during the inspection he may well try to sell the unsafe aircraft to another buyer. The next inspector hired may be less skilled or less experienced in type and could possibly miss the same flight critical item which results in a very dangerous situation. Full disclosure of a problem to all parties involved when it is discovered is always the best policy.
     
  13. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You assume the seller has scruples.
     
  14. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    Compass correction card required, can you give us the FAR for that. Lots of new radio install and other work that require compass swing never get a new card done, let alone the ones missing the cards or only have the 50+ year old one still in place.
     
  15. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    (a) A placard meeting the requirements of this section must be installed on or near the magnetic direction indicator.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Why is this starting to sound like a mechanic who is trying to milk a seller under the guise of morality?

    "I'm calling the FAA to investigate your airplane just in case you are not honest; after all, it's the moral thing to do. You are not going anywhere until it's fixed or you pay to load it on a cart. "

    That's probably not the intent, but oh, how subject to abuse!
     
  17. Brad Smith

    Brad Smith Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You're absolutely right, you cannot ensure that the seller in any transaction has scruples. You've done your part by informing the seller of the discrepancy and it has been documented in your records and the prospective buyers. The seller will be liable if the actual buyer of his aircraft suffers death or injury due to an unairworthy condition that was covered up to increase his chances of making a sale. Two witnesses plus documentation would put the seller in a very unenviable position in court.
     
  18. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    (a) What, can you be a little more specific on the FAR?
     
  19. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    23.1547
     
  20. brien23

    brien23 Line Up and Wait

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    Am I missing something who does this for a Cessna 150.

    1. CFRTitle 14Chapter I › Subchapter C › Part 23 › Subpart G › Section 23.1547
    § 23.1547 Magnetic direction indicator.

    (a) A placard meeting the requirements of this section must be installed on or near the magnetic direction indicator.

    (b) The placard must show the calibration of the instrument in level flight with the engines operating.

    (c) The placard must state whether the calibration was made with radio receivers on or off.

    (d) Each calibration reading must be in terms of magnetic headings in not more than 30 degree increments.

    (e) If a magnetic nonstabilized direction indicator can have a deviation of more than 10 degrees caused by the operation of electrical equipment, the placard must state which electrical loads, or combination of loads, would cause a deviation of more than 10 degrees when turned on.
     
  21. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are you really an A&P, or do you just play one on the Internet?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  22. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Did he sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
     
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  23. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    Are you serious?

    I did that, to my 150, at last annual.
     
  24. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Brien, ya gotta remember that most of those reading this on this site are too busy watching their GPS to know if their mag-compass is right.
     
  25. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Did you re-swing your mag compass last time you swapped out the radios? you were supposed to.. didjya huh?
     
  26. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I'll vouch for Brien, Navy trained Avionics tech, A&P-IA with more tickets and time in aviation than any 10 others here.
     
  27. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A compass card is one of those things, like an empty weight and equipment list, that has no other FAR or guidance to follow up on after the aircraft is built and gets its original airworthiness certificate. And those items can remain legally untouched and forgotten unless something on the original aircraft is altered or repaired. Then the guidance like AC43.13-1 & 2 directs you to swing a compass or change the empty weight. I think if there was a regular requirement to check those certification items things would be kept more updated... but who wants another regulation. Not me for sure.
     
  28. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  29. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    To be in compliance read FAR 43.13
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    (b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).

    any thing that would alter the magnetic field, should have a new compass correction card.
     
  31. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Compass deviation check and updated compass card is required every annual here in Canada. Wish it was more like the US, though it isn't a major big deal to comply with.

    Also have 24 month altimeter recertification for vfr in certain airspace. 406 elt requirements are coming for private aircraft.