Pre-buy Inspectors Responsibility

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    You've been hired to preform a Pre-buy inspection.
    during that inspection you discover a safety of flight discrepancy.

    What is your responsibility to the buyer and /or seller?

    Who else should you inform?
     
  2. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    What is your responsibility to the buyer and /or seller? - tell them
    Who else should you inform? - nobody
     
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  3. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Are You still considering it a morality issue?
     
  4. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    Who hired you? And for what scope of work? Isn't that really all that matters, basically obligated to the person paying and to give them what they asked for? No more, no less?
     
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  5. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    "Mr. Buyer, I discovered a maintenance item that I consider a safety of flight item. The frammis has become discombobulated. In addition I found these minor items that you may wish to know about. I'd be happy to discuss any of these items with you."

    "Mr. Seller, I discovered that the frammis on this airplane has become discombobulated. You may wish to discuss this item with your regular mechanic."

    End of story.

    Jim
     
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  6. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    Your responsibility to the buyer all depends are your agreement with them. Your responsibility to the seller all depends on how you found the discrepancy.

    If you were walking around the aircraft and visually saw it, a verbal comment to the buyer and if you're so inclined a comment to the seller. For me, I would also tell the seller.

    If you were performing maintenance, like a compression test and found a dead cylinder, 43.13(a) may require a formal written comment for the seller, especially if the method or practice you are following requires further action or results in a pass/fail condition.


    Like the Feds? No.
     
  7. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Is this a rhetorical question?

    Either way, I'll be watching to see where where the thread goes. (Other than the obvious - the mechanic has an obligation to his customer - I don't have a publishable opinion on the subject)
     
  8. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Hypothetically, you do a prebuy and find wing spar corrosion, you tell the buyer, and he walks away. Another buyer ends up buying the aircraft without a prebuy and he dies shortly thereafter when the wing folds in-flight. During the accident investigation, the NTSB and FAA learn that an A&P knew about the corrosion... would you want to be that A&P?
     
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  9. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I have a prebuy mech lined up for my future purchase.
    He said he wants us both there so anything he finds, he can show us both right then.
    I'm liking not only that modus operandi, but that attitude of openness.
     
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  10. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    In all my pre buys,the inspector worked for me. I would then inform the seller,and also give the mechanic permission to talk to the seller.
     
  11. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    You should start more threads, Jim. You write way better than the overly prolific thread-starter at hand.
     
  12. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    That reminds me, I need to go clean the contacts on my own frammis.
     
  13. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Frammis are never considered safety of flight items.
     
  14. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    Please, the plural of Frammis is Frammes. Mind your grammer and speling (sic). :cheerswine:

    Jim
     
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  15. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    I rite gud for a living in addition to the engineering. Some say my writing is better than my engineering. Sigh.

    Jim
     
  16. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    Huh, I always thought it was Frammiseseses. Learn something new everyday!

    And as to the original question, inform the buy, for whom you are working. If it's an airworthiness issue, inform the seller. It's the owner's responsibility to take care of it.
     
  17. SEMOAV

    SEMOAV Pre-Flight

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    I say you only have an obligation to the person paying you. I say this because there is no regulation on a pre-buy inspection I know of. I am not familiar with any published data from a manufacturer or the FAA that spells out what a pre-buy is.

    Things change though if the pre-buy is an annual inspection. Just my two cents.
     
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  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    When you find a safety of flight discrepancy, anyone feel a moral obligation to report it?
     
  19. SEMOAV

    SEMOAV Pre-Flight

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    Safety of flight issue yes. It must be reported. As a mechanic I feel compelled to report anything like that.
     
  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    to who?
     
  21. SEMOAV

    SEMOAV Pre-Flight

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    Both parties. The one is paying me and the other owns it. So if the deal goes south the owner needs to know what’s wrong. He may decide not to fly home or whatever or discuss it with his mechanic.
     
  22. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Your attorney?
     
  23. danhagan

    danhagan Cleared for Takeoff

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    The buyer (he paid you - "don't buy this POS")
    The seller (tell him he'll probably die flying this back - and ask if his life insurance current?)
    Your mom (not helpful)
    POA (less helful than your mom):confused::p
     
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  24. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    how about the fsdo? so they don't issue a ferry permit.
     
  25. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    How about NASA?
     
  26. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    To take a page from your play book, why would the FSDO need to issue a ferry permit when nobody has declared the airplane unairworthy?
     
  27. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    That is an issue, isn't it? this leaves the inspector to make a hard decision.

    When the owner knows there is a safety of flight discrepancy, the aircraft is automatically unsafe to fly, 91.7 which by definition makes the aircraft un-airworthy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  28. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    What inspector?
     
  29. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Why does that make it hard for the IA/mechanic? Notify the owner of the unsafe condition then what they do with their airplane is their decision.

    It may be worth notifying the owner via written communication rather than just a verbal conversation. But that is just to provide the mechanic some legal footing to stand on should things go south. beyond that I don’t think the mechanic could be held accountable for much.
     
  30. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    So the unscrupulous ass hires a ferry pilot,, you want to be that guy? what protects that guy?
     
  31. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Is it not in that ferry pilot's best interest to perform an adequate investigation/preflight prior to departing with the plane? Wouldn't you mention it to the ferry pilot when they showed up to pick the plane up? Oftentimes an owner's reputation and the condition of their airplane gets around so the ferry pilot may already know what kind of situation they're dealing with.

    I've been in those shoes before. To be honest, I don't think involving a FSDO would have changed the outcome much, if at all.
     
  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Will a ferry pilot do a complete inspection to discover this discrepancy?
    How/why would I be there when the ferry pilot was there ?
    How will a ferry pilot discover the discrepancy?
     
  33. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    Assume I'm the buyer. What duty does my A&P have to the seller? That's not to say some lawyer representing the seller's interests won't pursue the A&P for not reporting a dangerous condition to an owner whom he does not work for, but really, other than perceived ethics, what else is there?

    At the end of the day, there will be likely few buyers that will walk away without telling the seller why they are walking, and if not told, few sellers that will not ask why the buyer walked away. Mix in a few cases where the buyer decides to negotiate and tell the seller the reason for a heavy discount, and the many cases where we have ethical A&Ps, and this hypothetical becomes few and far between I believe.

    But crappy flying weather is coming, so let's argue on the Internet. :confused::D
     
  34. Bell206

    Bell206 Line Up and Wait

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    So by extension, if you were walking by a transient aircraft (owner unknown) at your favorite local airport and noticed what you perceive to be an un-airworthy condition with the aircraft, you would call the FSDO to "protect the next guy" who flies it?
     
  35. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Good question, What is your responsibility?
    There are so many derelicts setting on the ramp where would you start/stop?
    I would like to believe that Ferry pilots, CFIs, and regular pilots would see these aircraft for what they are.
    but an aircraft that is for sale wouldn't be so apparent
     
  36. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    Pretty sure 91.3(a) and 91.7(b) answer the airworthiness before flight and whether or not to operate the aircraft in question, question.
     
  37. Norman

    Norman En-Route Gone West

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    Tom,
    The only responsibility the A&P/IA has is to the one who is paying him to do the evaluation. He may advise the owner of discrepancies but he is not obligated to do so because it is not a formal inspection. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
     
  38. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    Safety of flight is in the eye of the inspector. Once I have advised the owner (in writing to save my fanny) that I believe this to be a safety of flight issue and HIS mechanic/inspector says, "That will buff right out" then his/her @$$ is on the line, and not mine. I have completed my responsibility to the owner, who is RESPONSIBLE for the maintenance.

    Jim
     
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  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I don't know what you've been smoking but we all have a moral responsibility.
    So what you are saying you don't care if a unsuspecting ferry pilot get killed.
     
  40. AWACSEng

    AWACSEng Cleared for Takeoff

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    By that logic, we all have a moral responsibility to never leave our houses because an unsuspecting pedestrian can be struck by our cars, or our rattletrap, un-airworthy flying machines may unsuspectedly fall upon the innocent bystanders bellow.

    There is a certain amount of inherent risk associated with our daily activities. Being an unsuspecting ferry pilot is not without its own share of risks, and they should be mitigated or accepted as the pilot sees fit.

    The responsibility of the "inspector" is nothing more than what it appears at face value. If one feels that they are not capable of drawing the line of what they can or cannot control, it's time to find a new line of work (or retirement).