PPL solo X-country... am I allowed to plan my own route?

It matters not if you give them away or sell them. If you are carrying items for the business, you may not do that. Transporting yourself and transacting business while at the destination is OK. Your personal effects (papers, order book, computer, etc...) are OK. But if it looks like you are delivering things via the plane, they're going to think you are carrying cargo.

By the way, I don't know how far we've strayed from the original topic, but you can't do any business in furtherance of a business on your STUDENT PILOT license. That includes just flying yourself out solo to meet a customer (no matter what you carry). That is a privilege you don't get until you get your private.
 
JCranford said:
So he could deliver unpaid samples, take orders later and ship them conventionally and be good to go?
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According to the FAA, no he could not. If his business is reimbursing him for the flight, he cannot carry any business product.
 
Adding your commercial rating is fun! After your instrument and 250 hours...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ragedracer1977 said:
You specifically said you were going to deliver widgets. Further, yes, you can use a plane to fly yourself where you would normally drive a car. You can not be reimbursed by your business for the cost of flying. You need a new attorney
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Delivering widgets is not my business. Nor is flying my business. There is no "reimbursment", it's all incidental to the business. Just like the guys who own overhaul shops and use a plane to chase parts. They're not paid to fly parts, they're paid to overhaul engines. The airplane is nothing but a tool. You have to look at the big picture and what a businesses SIC code is. If the case should ever arise, a competent FAA official would be doing the same.
 
I planned my own and my CFI signed off after suggesting it might be a tad long at 260 NM. Took about 4 hours in a 152. When I got back to my home airport, winds were 11G21 which was not the forecast. I was tired and ready to get on the ground. Thankfully, tower gave me an option where the winds were more or less straight down the runway. What's funny is my CFI was instructing another student and holding for me to land. He later told me if I didn't take the favorable runway he would jumped on the radio and "instructed" me otherwise.

If you're curious the route was KLOU-KBWG-KSME-KLOU.
 
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OP: Just curious, is part of your rationale for the unusually long cross country to get through your required 40hrs faster?

I have been slowly tooling up to take my private pilots lessons. Medical is next week and I'm narrowed down to somewhat short list of 3 instructors / locations. My first real hiccup is a possible medical issue so I learned quickly to not get ahead of myself as much as I want to rush through it.

Fortunately, my wife was already a pilot and we have a plane. When I first met her I had these daydreams of traveling someplace far (say 300nm) each weekend. I learned very quickly the sheer amount of weather I DID NOT UNDERSTAND - and believe me I thought I knew it all.

When I fly with her she makes it seem so easy. One day she challenged me to "try" fly the pattern until I turned final...crap, was I humbled. I thought I did okay...NOT. I remember telling her like 10 times later how I felt so behind everything.

Since then I've decided I know nothing. Listen to the ones who have been there and done that. And make no assumptions, none at all. I went to a great aviation seminar by a retired airline pilot and CFI. He basically said mistakes rarely do you in. Its the bad decision that will get you. After what little experience I have and prior to any official training, a 1500nm student solo cross country sure seems like it falls in that "decision" category vs a mistake.

Oh yeah, now owning a 182 I think the $100 hamburger is probably closer to $130 nowadays :)
 
Multi-state flying is easy, you just have to do it in New England.

I found hand flying a multi-leg xc as a student to be quite tiring. 3hrs was plenty for me, but if you want to go further, have at it.
 
Sinistar said:
OP: Just curious, is part of your rationale for the unusually long cross country to get through your required 40hrs faster?
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Time building, maintaining proficiency, etc. etc. Plan is to build as many hours as possible that will count both towards my PPL and instrument requirements. I've done many long leg hops before, granted they were in a 421 or 210, so maybe I'm a bit optimistic in what a 172 can do in a day. I'll work it all out when the time comes.;)
 
azblackbird said:
Delivering widgets is not my business. Nor is flying my business. There is no "reimbursment", it's all incidental to the business. Just like the guys who own overhaul shops and use a plane to chase parts. They're not paid to fly parts, they're paid to overhaul engines. The airplane is nothing but a tool. You have to look at the big picture and what a businesses SIC code is. If the case should ever arise, a competent FAA official would be doing the same.
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Good luck.
 
azblackbird said:
Time building, maintaining proficiency, etc. etc. Plan is to build as many hours as possible that will count both towards my PPL and instrument requirements. I've done many long leg hops before, granted they were in a 421 or 210, so maybe I'm a bit optimistic in what a 172 can do in a day. I'll work it all out when the time comes.;)
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I see zero value in doing this kind of flight as a student. Focusing on 10 steps from now instead of where you are now is going to get you killed. If you're that eager stop talking about it and take a lesson.
 
Salty said:
I see zero value in doing this kind of flight as a student. Focusing on 10 steps from now instead of where you are now is going to get you killed. If you're that eager stop talking about it and take a lesson.
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I'll get there eventually. Concentrating right now on getting a business launched, and reading tons of FAA material in prep for my written. When I come across something that piques my interest I'll ask a question. Doesn't hurt to ask questions does it? ;)
 
Clark1961 said:
Not a problem for my instructor. We reviewed the plan and he approved the airports that were new to me after a little discussion of anything special about them. I flew to new airports on two of my three solo cross country flights.

A student needs to be ready to go to new airports after the cert is earned. Best to demonstrate it along the way.
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.93

(2) Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided -

(i) The authorized instructor has given the student flight training in both directions over the route, including entering and exiting the traffic patterns, takeoffs, and landings at the airports to be used;
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Salty said:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.93
(2) Repeated specific solo cross-country flights may be made to another airport that is within 50 nautical miles of the airport from which the flight originated, provided -

(i) The authorized instructor has given the student flight training in both directions over the route, including entering and exiting the traffic patterns, takeoffs, and landings at the airports to be used;
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...this isn't the normal solo XC endorsement, it's a special one for repeat flights. The normal XC endorsement is described by 61.93(c) and no requirement exists for the instructor to fly to the to other airports with the student before giving it.
 
azblackbird said:
Isn't it called a "cross country" for a reason? WTF do they expect a guy to do? Stay within walking distance of his home base? I thought planes were meant for flying places. :)
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In not sure if it's a bit of internet post misinterpretation, but if you take your words and attitude literally, you already sound like a pilot we'll be reading about in "Never Again". Hope I'm wrong.
 
Lndwarrior said:
In not sure if it's a bit of internet post misinterpretation, but if you take your words and attitude literally, you already sound like a pilot we'll be reading about in "Never Again". Hope I'm wrong.
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A little bit of sarcasm, that's all.
 
azblackbird said:
Delivering widgets is not my business. Nor is flying my business. There is no "reimbursment", it's all incidental to the business. Just like the guys who own overhaul shops and use a plane to chase parts. They're not paid to fly parts, they're paid to overhaul engines. The airplane is nothing but a tool. You have to look at the big picture and what a businesses SIC code is. If the case should ever arise, a competent FAA official would be doing the same.
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You're going to do what you want to do, quite obviously. It's your license....
 
azblackbird said:
Time building, maintaining proficiency, etc. etc. Plan is to build as many hours as possible that will count both towards my PPL and instrument requirements. I've done many long leg hops before, granted they were in a 421 or 210, so maybe I'm a bit optimistic in what a 172 can do in a day. I'll work it all out when the time comes.;)
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So you think you can accrue a ton of xc hours as a student pilot and apply them toward your instrument rating? You need some ground instruction, son. And probably better parenting, but it seems way too late for that. :D Seriously, though, you have so much to learn and every time you post it proves the point. Please be careful out there. I hate hearing about airplanes getting wrinkled up.
 
Why couldn't apply he XC hours as a student pilot to his instrument rating? You need 50 hours of XC. You're telling me the hours earned as a student pilot suddenly don't count?
 
Clark1961 said:
Yes. So? Do you have a point or do you just like to post fragments of Regs? Perhaps I would be kinder if the fragment of the reg had any bearing on the situation I described and you quoted.
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I'm confused. How is that not applicable?
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Why couldn't he apply XC hours as a student pilot to his instrument rating? You need 50 hours of XC. You're telling me the hours earned as a student pilot suddenly don't count?
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Yea, I'm trying to figure that one out myself. I didn't even bother replying to his post. Not worth my time.
 
dmspilot said:
...this isn't the normal solo XC endorsement, it's a special one for repeat flights. The normal XC endorsement is described by 61.93(c) and no requirement exists for the instructor to fly to the to other airports with the student before giving it.
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Are you claiming that to repeat a flight you have to have instruction at the destination airport, but the first time you go there you can solo? That makes zero sense.
 
ragedracer1977 said:
Why couldn't apply he XC hours as a student pilot to his instrument rating? You need 50 hours of XC. You're telling me the hours earned as a student pilot suddenly don't count?
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The real question is, why couldn't he get his license and do 40 hours solo after having completed training rather than working on the next rating before completing the first one.
 
jordane93 said:
50 hours XC PIC
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Don't I need dual time also? Ideally I will do several long leg XC with CFII, and return trip XC instrument dual training. I think theres some rules that I"m allowed to do that and log both times as XC student and dual instrument. I'll definitely ask my CFII when we get to that point. Some of you guys can be so confusing. :p
 
Salty said:
Are you claiming that to repeat a flight you have to have instruction at the destination airport, but the first time you go there you can solo? That makes zero sense.
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No. Try reading all of 61.93 instead of cherry picking excerpts. The excerpt you posted says that it applied to flights less than 50 nautical miles, does that mean student pilots can't fly more than 50nm? That makes zero sense.
 
dmspilot said:
No. Try reading all of 61.93 instead of cherry picking excerpts. The excerpt you posted says that it applied to flights less than 50 nautical miles, does that mean student pilots can't fly more than 50nm? That makes zero sense.
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I'm trying to understand it. So, if you want to fly solo for 1500 miles the faa is cool with you not having instruction at the destination, but if it's nearby, you must have it? I'm not following that line of reasoning.
 
Salty said:
I'm trying to understand it. So, if you want to fly solo for 1500 miles the faa is cool with you not having instruction at the destination, but if it's nearby, you must have it? I'm not following that line of reasoning.
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No. 61.193(b) ALLOWS a student to make repeat flights with ONE endorsement...IF the student received flight instruction over the route and to the other airport(s). It is an exception to 61.193(c), which requires an endorsement for EACH cross-country flight.
 
You don't understand. It matters not if delivering widgets is your business or incidental to your business, the private privileges for flying for business specifically bars you from carrying passengers or cargo.
 
flyingron said:
You don't understand. It matters not if delivering widgets is your business or incidental to your business, the private privileges for flying for business specifically bars you from carrying passengers or cargo.
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Oh I understand completely! If what you're implying was the case, every single business owner I know who uses their airplane for business purposes would have a commercial license and be a part 135 operator. Fact is... not a single one of them have a commercial license, and all have written their plane expenses off their business taxes ever since they've been in business. Many regularly fly their employees and equipment back and forth between their offices and client locations. I have yet to ever hear of any of them being hassled by the FAA for anything. A couple have been audited by the IRS, but it had nothing to do with their business use of their airplane.
 
Salty said:
I'm confused. How is that not applicable?
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The word "repeated" is the first clue. The "less than x miles" is your second clue. I was also signed off for x-c to nearby airports under that reg.

All that said, the discussion is about student x-c greater than the limit in the reg fragment you quoted.

Now tell me we're you playing ignorant or were you truly incapable of reading the reg and understanding it? Either way I don't care.
 
You're obviously incapable of listening. First off, 135 is required for common carriage, that is when you provide transportation services to others. If you're flying around a plane you obtain for your own business (with your employees or merchandise) this is private carriage and can be done with just a commercial PILOT certificate.

Again, moving cargo or people (other than yourself) around for the furtherance of business requires a COMMERCIAL PILOT certificate. Moving yourself around for furtherance of business, can be done with a PRIVATE pilot certificate. You can't do anything with regard to a business with your STUDENT pilot certificate (that means solo, if you want to get your instructor to accompany you somewhere for a business trip while getting instruction, that's on his certificate).
 
flyingron said:
The FAA, and don't believe it hasn't happened.
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Do you have any supporting material? And I'm not referring to the BS about an employee of a company wanting to get reimbursed from his boss for flying his co-workers to some business convention. Or the guy who wanted to use his airplane to check power lines for the electric company he worked for and wanted reimbursement for that.

I want solid hard facts of a private pilot business owner using his airplane as an incidental tool to his business, and who may occasionally move his employees or equipment around from location to location during his "normal" everyday business activities. I'll hold my breath....
 
flyingron said:
Again, moving cargo or people (other than yourself) around for the furtherance of business requires a COMMERCIAL PILOT certificate.
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Uh huh... if that was the case then every owner of a company who uses a company vehicle to move his equipment or employees around would be required to have a commercial drivers license under the FMC regs. Look at the big picture. Any competent FAA official would do the same.

The regs were written because they didn't want every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a private pilots license hanging out their shingle and advertising to the world that they would "fly for hire" equipment or bodies around for profit. Apples and Oranges!
 
azblackbird said:
Uh huh... if that was the case then every owner of a company who uses a company vehicle to move his equipment or employees around would be required to have a commercial drivers license under the FMC regs. Look at the big picture. Any competent FAA official would do the same.

The regs were written because they didn't want every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a private pilots license hanging out their shingle and advertising to the world that they would "fly for hire" equipment or bodies around for profit. Apples and Oranges!
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Planes are not cars. Or motorcycles.
 
azblackbird said:
The regs were written because they didn't want every Tom, Dick, or Harry with a private pilots license hanging out their shingle and advertising to the world that they would "fly for hire" equipment or bodies around for profit. Apples and Oranges!
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A commercial pilot still can't even do that. You are clueless.
 
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