PPL solo X-country... am I allowed to plan my own route?

I had hundreds of hours with my grandfather in several planes. I figured I knew what the hell I was doing. Trust me, you don't.

ETA: I'm also a MC rider. Been riding for 30+ years. Doesn't make me a better pilot. It's not even in the same country, much less the same ballpark.
 
I feel it's the other way around. Everybody thinks they are the expert and love to dish out the advice. When it comes time to offer your advice, you can speak until you're blue in the face, but it rarely does any good.

I'm talking about genuine expertise. Credentialed people, experienced people, scientists, etc.

Yes there is a concurrent epidemic of people pretending they have expertise too.

Up to us to respect the real expertise, not just what we want to hear. Imho.


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I'm talking about genuine expertise. Credentialed people, experienced people, scientists, etc.

Yes there is a concurrent epidemic of people pretending they have expertise too.

Up to us to respect the real expertise, not just what we want to hear. Imho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed.
 
My first solo XC was Jeffco-Cheyenne-Sterling-Jeffco and the long XC was Jeffco-Syndey-Goodland-Jeffco. All the students in the 141 school did those. After that if you still needed solo XC time to round out the training, you could go where you wanted. I went to Ft. Morgan it appears looking at the log book.

Amusingly, I used to book the plane for XC at the FBO opening time in the morning. The girl at the desk said that one of the other instructors could review my stuff. I said, no problem, my instructor would do it. She said, he doesn't come in that early. I told her I'd wake him up. At this point I had to explain that Dale and I had been sharing a condo for the past five months. In fact, he signed me off the night before, confident that I would know enough not to launch if the weather was bad (unlikely in Colorado anyhow).
Cool story! I lived in Ft. Morgan, so your XC was basically in my front and back yard. Our buddy with the 210 and 421 was based out of Kimball, NE. Whenever we were out of town on a job (usually in western CO, western WY, eastern UT, eastern MT, western ND, or northern NM) he'd usually offer to fly down, up, or over and pick us up so we could all be home on the weekends. Naturally since I was the aspiring pilot of our crew, I'd always sit left or right seat and would take instruction from him. I also "legally" started taking instruction from a CFI in Brush, CO whenever I had the time off to do so, which was very little. I officially had 4 hours of logged time with him and 2 hours logged aerobatic time from a CFI out of Sidney, NE. That was all back in the late 70's early 80's during the heyday of the oil field when I had the money but not the time to burn.

The CFI in Brush was a crop duster by trade and had a nice 182 that I took instruction in. I remember taking my lessons in the winter, pulling the plane out from the hanger, doing my pre-flight, warming it up, and then taxing over to pick him up from the nice warm FBO shack to begin our lessons. He'd hop in, then light up a cigarette and proceed to tell what he wanted me to do. I'd take off and we'd head out over the plains, get some altitude and I'd do my coordinated turns, stalls, spins, etc. then head back and do some pattern work. That was about it. He wasn't much for talking nor really instructing for that matter. He handed me a couple books to read to prep me for the written but I never had the time to read them. The CFI in Sidney was also a crop duster by trade. He had a nice Citabria which I took a couple hours of aerobatic training in at the suggestion of my friend in Kimball. I wanted to do that type of training not only because it was fun, but so I could get a feel for unusual attitudes. An hour in that thing was almost more than I could handle. I'd be light headed for a day or two after each flight. It was a good euphoric type feeling. Almost like I was walking on air.

In 1986 s**t hit the fan in the oil patch. Since nobody was drilling and the majors were drastically cutting their budgets, our jobs (pipe inspection and cathodic protection services) started getting further and farther between. I didn't think it was fair for my boss to keep me on the payroll and me not doing any actual work, so I told him I was going to take a long vacation and head down to Phoenix, AZ for the winter and golf. I loaded up my golf clubs and a few clothes and headed down for a well deserved vacation. I've been here ever since. I guess I just got tired of living out of a suitcase all the time. Sure the flying back and forth with our buddy was cool and I always looked forward to the weekends, but my heart was just no longer in the oil patch.

It wasn't long before I started a moving company, sold it, and then started a motorcycle courier company, sold it and then started an advertising agency which I still own to this very day. Flying was always in the back of my mind, I subscribed to all of the flying magazines just to keep abreast of all the new planes and cool gadgets that were coming out. Many of the friends I've made over the years have airplanes and I will occasionally go up with them for the so-called $100 hamburger run, but it just isn't that exciting to me anymore. I guess I'm the type that needs a purpose and mission (so to speak) of where I want to fly and why I want to fly, which now brings me to this point in my life. With my new start-up business, I will now have that purpose and a mission. :cool:
 
You should probably also pretend to get your commercial rating for that one, unless you can prove that flying was only incidental to the delivery. ;)
I've already consulted with an aviation attorney and my accountant on using a plane for my business. I'm good to go with a PPL on either renting or owning and taking the write offs. No need for a commercial.
 
Cool story! I lived in Ft. Morgan, so your XC was basically in my front and back yard. Our buddy with the 210 and 421 was based out of Kimball, NE. Whenever we were out of town on a job (usually in western CO, western WY, eastern UT, eastern MT, western ND, or northern NM) he'd usually offer to fly down, up, or over and pick us up so we could all be home on the weekends. Naturally since I was the aspiring pilot of our crew, I'd always sit left or right seat and would take instruction from him. I also "legally" started taking instruction from a CFI in Brush, CO whenever I had the time off to do so, which was very little. I officially had 4 hours of logged time with him and 2 hours logged aerobatic time from a CFI out of Sidney, NE. That was all back in the late 70's early 80's during the heyday of the oil field when I had the money but not the time to burn.

The CFI in Brush was a crop duster by trade and had a nice 182 that I took instruction in. I remember taking my lessons in the winter, pulling the plane out from the hanger, doing my pre-flight, warming it up, and then taxing over to pick him up from the nice warm FBO shack to begin our lessons. He'd hop in, then light up a cigarette and proceed to tell what he wanted me to do. I'd take off and we'd head out over the plains, get some altitude and I'd do my coordinated turns, stalls, spins, etc. then head back and do some pattern work. That was about it. He wasn't much for talking nor really instructing for that matter. He handed me a couple books to read to prep me for the written but I never had the time to read them. The CFI in Sidney was also a crop duster by trade. He had a nice Citabria which I took a couple hours of aerobatic training in at the suggestion of my friend in Kimball. I wanted to do that type of training not only because it was fun, but so I could get a feel for unusual attitudes. An hour in that thing was almost more than I could handle. I'd be light headed for a day or two after each flight. It was a good euphoric type feeling. Almost like I was walking on air.

In 1986 s**t hit the fan in the oil patch. Since nobody was drilling and the majors were drastically cutting their budgets, our jobs (pipe inspection and cathodic protection services) started getting further and farther between. I didn't think it was fair for my boss to keep me on the payroll and me not doing any actual work, so I told him I was going to take a long vacation and head down to Phoenix, AZ for the winter and golf. I loaded up my golf clubs and a few clothes and headed down for a well deserved vacation. I've been here ever since. I guess I just got tired of living out of a suitcase all the time. Sure the flying back and forth with our buddy was cool and I always looked forward to the weekends, but my heart was just no longer in the oil patch.

It wasn't long before I started a moving company, sold it, and then started a motorcycle courier company, sold it and then started an advertising agency which I still own to this very day. Flying was always in the back of my mind, I subscribed to all of the flying magazines just to keep abreast of all the new planes and cool gadgets that were coming out. Many of the friends I've made over the years have airplanes and I will occasionally go up with them for the so-called $100 hamburger run, but it just isn't that exciting to me anymore. I guess I'm the type that needs a purpose and mission (so to speak) of where I want to fly and why I want to fly, which now brings me to this point in my life. With my new start-up business, I will now have that purpose and a mission. :cool:
You did spins in a 182? Really?

And you have an internet startup AND the time to burn flying every day?

Something about this doesn't quite ring true....
 
My instructors, and I think most all will be the same, would not allow a student to solo to a field they had not flown to with them.
I'd have no problem taking an entire day with my CFI (if he/she would be up for it) and doing a pre-run. Ideally since I'll be taking my instrument with the same CFI, we could knock out some good training along the way.
 
My instructors, and I think most all will be the same, would not allow a student to solo to a field they had not flown to with them.
That one I've got issues with...that's a CFI who doesnt allow students to go much beyond a rote level on their own, rather than higher levels of learning.

My solo XCs didn't involve any airports that I had been to with my instructors, and I don't think I ever sent a student somplace that we'd been before, either.
 
That one I've got issues with...that's a CFI who doesnt allow students to go much beyond a rote level on their own, rather than higher levels of learning.

My solo XCs didn't involve any airports that I had been to with my instructors, and I don't think I ever sent a student somplace that we'd been before, either.

Same here. Several of the airports I landed at, my CFI had never even been to.
 
I'm wondering if the OP still has the Formula-1 car that he learned how to drive in?

Seriously, I am a low time guy (just 400 hours) and think you are getting way ahead of yourself. Solo first, then build up to some local XC trips with your CFI. Flying is not at all like running around in a car or bike. I learned a lot flying VFR all the way across the USA, but I did it when I already had a PPL and 300 hours (and over 100 in the plane I flew). It took me 5 days to reach St. Augustine and was not at all like driving my car across the country several years earlier.

You need to crawl before you can run or you'll end up in an NTSB report.
 
You did spins in a 182? Really?

And you have an internet startup AND the time to burn flying every day?

Something about this doesn't quite ring true....

Takes a little effort to spin a 182 but it recovers pretty quick. My CFI only had me do a few just so I could get the feel. I did a couple left, couple right, and that was about it. That's why I wanted to do more training in the Citabria. Way more safer plus I had a chute just in case.

I've had an internet company since 1996. It's afforded me the luxury to take time off to basically do whatever I want to do. My wife and I have pretty much toured every state west of the MS either on our Harley or Goldwing. She come down with cancer a few years ago, so we've basically curtailed any major traveling and touring. The new company I'm starting up will afford me the luxury of traveling by plane for the day to meet clients and do my business. Rather than riding or driving I can fly to my destinations and be back home in time for dinner, at least here in the state of AZ where I will be doing my initial launch.
 
I just realized I remember this guy from another board from years ago... Seems he was sort of a troll there too.
 
The new company I'm starting up will afford me the luxury of traveling by plane for the day to meet clients and do my business. Rather than riding or driving I can fly to my destinations and be back home in time for dinner, at least here in the state of AZ where I will be doing my initial launch.

Your days will be cut short by thunderstorms (you know you can't fly through those, right?). Have you ever flown in AZ on a hot afternoon? The bumps are not much fun when it becomes so rough that you can barely tune a radio frequency because your arm keeps flying around the cabin. Your speed is affected too because you will need to stay well below maneuvering speed which will be pretty slow with only you in the airplane.
 
Your days will be cut short by thunderstorms (you know you can't fly through those, right?). Have you ever flown in AZ on a hot afternoon? The bumps are not much fun when it becomes so rough that you can barely tune a radio frequency because your arm keeps flying around the cabin. Your speed is affected too because you will need to stay well below maneuvering speed which will be pretty slow with only you in the airplane.
Geez, you guys are brutal. Yes, I'm very well aware of some of the turbulence you can encounter here in AZ. CO can be just as bad (if not worse) especially when flying over the Rockies on a hot summer day with cells building up around you. BTDT several times. And you're right, it's not fun.

Once I get serious it's not like I'm going to be flying every single day on some sort of fixed schedule like I see a lot of the airline students around here doing. I plan on knocking out my PPL and instrument by flying at a minimum of two to three days a week. If the weather is bad I won't fly. If it's clear then I'll fly which is pretty much the majority of the time around these parts. Once rated, I plan on most of my flights being IFR or VFR with flight following at the very least.
 
Takes a little effort to spin a 182 but it recovers pretty quick. My CFI only had me do a few just so I could get the feel. I did a couple left, couple right, and that was about it. That's why I wanted to do more training in the Citabria. Way more safer plus I had a chute just in case.
I'm sure it spins and recovers. The Cirrus will recover as well. Both are illegal to intentionally spin and not a good idea to do and even a dumber idea to brag about it on this forum. The FAA is here, you know. It's right up there with putting up youtube videos of you actually doing it.
 
I'm sure it spins and recovers. The Cirrus will recover as well. Both are illegal to intentionally spin and not a good idea to do and even a dumber idea to brag about it on this forum.
I'm sure the FAA can take that up with the CFI if they care to dig him up. I was his student and thought that was just a normal part of my training, which obviously it must have been or else he probably wouldn't have showed me how to do them. At the time I didn't know any better. A few weeks later I did take some aerobatic training just so I could get the feel of spatial disorientation. Since then any aerobatics I've done have been in a glider (with a CFI of course) either here or up in Durango. Glider flying is awesome! I wouldn't mind getting rated for that also.
 
Takes a little effort to spin a 182 but it recovers pretty quick. My CFI only had me do a few just so I could get the feel. I did a couple left, couple right, and that was about it. That's why I wanted to do more training in the Citabria. Way more safer plus I had a chute just in case.

I've had an internet company since 1996. It's afforded me the luxury to take time off to basically do whatever I want to do. My wife and I have pretty much toured every state west of the MS either on our Harley or Goldwing. She come down with cancer a few years ago, so we've basically curtailed any major traveling and touring. The new company I'm starting up will afford me the luxury of traveling by plane for the day to meet clients and do my business. Rather than riding or driving I can fly to my destinations and be back home in time for dinner, at least here in the state of AZ where I will be doing my initial launch.
Wow, an internet company even before eBay was eBay. You are a god, training is a complete waste of time for someone of your abilities.
 
Wow, an internet company even before eBay was eBay. You are a god, training is a complete waste of time for someone of your abilities.
Yea, I started my internet company before Google, Amazon, and E-bay were even a blip on the radar. In fact, I remember when Amazon was just some dude working out of his house selling books online. Google was some foreign kid sending out e-mails to whomever he could find begging them to use his search engine. I remember when GoDaddy was some dude selling web sites and hosting services which is basically the same business I was in. He didn't hit it big until he started registering domain names for a dollar above his cost. He went the volume (with little profit) route and is now the number seller of domain names in the world. He sold the company for several billion and now is into real estate, charities, and motorcycle dealerships here in AZ.
 
@azblackbird
It does sound like your life is set up so that the flying you want to do IS doable. In life and business, enthusiasm is a powerful force that keeps things moving. But those qualities that bring success in business can play nasty tricks on you in the air if you are overconfident. So be careful!

If you have both the time and money to fly three times a week, you have a huge advantage! Don't throw it away by believing you already know what you're doing. I know I don't. That's what keeps me alive. Good luck.
 
@azblackbird
It does sound like your life is set up so that the flying you want to do IS doable. In life and business, enthusiasm is a powerful force that keeps things moving. But those qualities that bring success in business can play nasty tricks on you in the air if you are overconfident. So be careful!

If you have both the time and money to fly three times a week, you have a huge advantage! Don't throw it away by believing you already know what you're doing. I know I don't. That's what keeps me alive. Good luck.
I'm way too old to start pushing my limits again. I've done that with cars, bikes, horses, and various other gamuts in my young and dumb days and thankfully am still alive. My approach to flying will be slow, methodical, and precise. If I don't feel like I'm on my game, then I won't fly. I don't have too! I've DNF'ed several races just because I wasn't on my game and to continue on could have been detrimental to my body.

Maybe I am a little too ambitious in wanting to do a long XC, but given plenty of rest and proper planning I don't see a problem with breaking everything up into separate 200-300 mile scenario based missions etc. and making a full day (or maybe two) out of it. I won't know until I get in the air and see how it all feels. My intentions behind doing longer than standard XC's is to build up hours and experience. If my CFI gives me the okay and sees that I'm proficient enough and have done my planning to the T, then I don't see what the problem would be. I guess my downfall is that I'm very much familiar with a lot of the terrain here in the SW having flown over it, off-roading it, and also having done many 600+ mile day rides on a road bike, so taking a day and doing a 1000 miles or more in a plane just seems natural to me especially when I can do 120+mph. Maybe I am way off base. Seems the peanut gallery here has that opinion. Oh well... I'm outta here. I've still got a lot of stuff to do to launch my business, and a lot to read and digest to prep for my written. I'll peek in every now and then to see if there's more stuff to read and learn from. I've already read a ton and learned a lot on this site already. That's a good thing... right? ;)
 
Maybe I am a little too ambitious in wanting to do a long XC, but given plenty of rest and proper planning I don't see a problem with breaking everything up into separate 200-300 mile scenario based missions etc. and making a full day (or maybe two) out of it.

The number of FBOs that will let a student take an airplane overnight is close to zero, so you'll almost certainly have to complete the flight and return home in a single day. You also have to land at two other airports. Since you are out West, you could well be flying at 9,500 or 10,500'. By the time you land, possibly get fuel (my FBO required that I get fuel at each stop), figure an hour to descend, land, do whatever you need on the ground, startup, runup and climb back to cruise.

A C172 can do 120mph over the ground in no wind, but you will have wind so your average speed over the ground (including climb) will likely be closer to 95-100 since you will spend more time with a headwind than a tailwind. Given an 8 hour day, with one hour for pre-flight briefing with your CFI, and 2 hours spent at each stop, you only have 5 hours of real travel time left which is about 500 miles. There is no way you'll cover 1000 miles. On the way back from Cuba I flew from Minneapolis, MN to Bismarck, ND to Scottsbluff, NE... about 750 miles and it was a very long day with strong headwinds. My plane is significantly faster than a 172. On my long solo XC I did 4.6 hours Hobbs time in a 172 to cover 365 (statute) miles for an average speed of 80mph. I remember coming back in the afternoon westbound over I-80 and semi trucks were passing me on the highway below.

Knowing the mountain terrain on a bike or car does not really prepare you to fly over it. Mountain wave, rotors, turbulence and a safe emergency landing site all come into play. After flying for a while, you'll spend your driving time thinking about places to land off-field... things that you never thought of before flying.
 
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Wow, an internet company even before eBay was eBay. You are a god, training is a complete waste of time for someone of your abilities.
Some of us are very familiar with the Internet long before there was AOL or the web. It's been around in one form or another since the '70s but not for public use.
 
The number of FBOs that will let a student take an airplane overnight is close to zero, so you'll almost certainly have to complete the flight and return home in a single day. You also have to land at two other airports. Since you are out West, you could well be flying at 9,500 or 10,500'. By the time you land, possibly get fuel (my FBO required that I get fuel at each stop), figure an hour to descend, land, do whatever you need on the ground, startup, runup and climb back to cruise.

A C172 can do 120mph over the ground in no wind, but you will have wind so your average speed over the ground (including climb) will likely be closer to 95-100 since you will spend more time with a headwind than a tailwind. Given an 8 hour day, with one hour for pre-flight briefing with your CFI, and 2 hours spent at each stop, you only have 5 hours of real travel time left which is about 500 miles. There is no way you'll cover 1000 miles. On the way back from Cuba I flew from Minneapolis, MN to Bismarck, ND to Scottsbluff, NE... about 750 miles and it was a very long day with strong headwinds. My plane is significantly faster than a 172. On my long solo XC I did 4.6 hours Hobbs time in a 172 to cover 365 (statute) miles for an average speed of 80mph. I remember coming back in the afternoon westbound over I-80 and semi trucks were passing me on the highway below.

Knowing the mountain terrain on a bike or car does not really prepare you to fly over it. Mountain wave, rotors, turbulence and a safe emergency landing site all come into play. After flying for a while, you'll spend your driving time thinking about places to land off-field... things that you never thought of before flying.
There's also the health issue. Many hours in an airplane at higher altitudes, or any altitude, dry air, lower O2 content, etc. It's what keeps me from more than 5 hrs a day in the air by myself.
 
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Some of us are very familiar with the Internet long before there was AOL or the web. It's been around in one form or another since the '70s but not for public use.
Obviously, but come on. You don't actually believe the braggadocio on this thread do you?
 
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I did a 1500 mile each way trip about two weeks after passing my PPL. That was in my own plane so it was up to me but did involve more weather planning than a short cross country, flexibility in the schedule to allow for weather delays, and a route that included stops where I knew other pilots so I'd have back-up if I had mechanical or other problems I didn't feel comfortable dealing with on my own.

Your cross-country for your private will be a trip that won't take more than part of a day to complete but it is a good idea to talk about trips you plan on taking after you get your private so your instructor can talk about issues you may encounter and can hopefully include legs that will get you ready for your first trip on your own after you get your certificate.

It's also fun to start planning those trips now and checking to see how the weather on the day you look at it would impact the trip. By the time I took the trip for real I had 'flown' it on paper multiple times, had looked at all the airports on google earth, and had even 'flown' into most of the airports on flight simulator X. I'll never know how much that helped but I know it didn't hurt

Gary
 
Just today I went with a student to an airport a record-breaking 25 miles away. Not 2500. Not 250. Twenty-five. When we came back, an unforecast 500 foot overcast had blanketed the airport. What do we do? Do we go under and scud run? Circle above it and see if it clears up? How much fuel do we have to do that? Do we go to another airport? Which one? How do we get back home? It was an interesting flight with lots of factors interacting with each other in unexpected ways.

The weather, the fuel in the tanks, and the amount of daylight remaining are not going to wait for a pilot to make up his mind. The amount of judgment and decision making involved in a cross country is exponentially greater than you think, and if you're talking about a flight with multiple legs of hundreds of miles each, it's exponentially greater again than that. Comparing a student pilot cross-country flight to a motorcycle ride is so absurd as to be laughable.
 
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Just today I went with a student to an airport a record-breaking 25 miles away. Not 2500. Not 250. Twenty-five. When we came back, an unforecast 500 foot overcast had blanketed the airport. What do we do? Do we go under and scud run? Circle above it and see if it clears up? How much fuel do we have to do that? Do we go to another airport? Which one? How do we get back home? It was an interesting flight with lots of factors interacting with each other in unexpected ways.

The weather and the fuel in the tanks are not going to wait for a pilot to make up his mind. The amount of judgment and decision making involved in a cross country is exponentially greater than you think, and if you're talking about a flight with multiple legs of hundreds of miles each, it's exponentially greater again than that. Comparing a student pilot cross-country flight to a motorcycle ride is so absurd as to be laughable.
To hijack the thread to something useful, what do you, as an instructor, do about that? Obviously, you're instrument rated, but you may not be current. Or maybe the IMC is icy or below minimums. Do you get a clearance and fly him home? Let him work out a solution? Make him divert and wait it out? Or some combination -- say let him get you on the ground somewhere, then fly him home IFR?
 
To hijack the thread to something useful, what do you, as an instructor, do about that? Obviously, you're instrument rated, but you may not be current. Or maybe the IMC is icy or below minimums. Do you get a clearance and fly him home? Let him work out a solution? Make him divert and wait it out? Or some combination -- say let him get you on the ground somewhere, then fly him home IFR?
...or maybe the primary trainer isn't legal IFR...
 
OMG - definite troll -- and a successful one at that. 155 replies in 24 hours? And here I am taking the bait.

I'm not an expert, but I thought spins were not approved in a C-182.
 
To hijack the thread to something useful, what do you, as an instructor, do about that? Obviously, you're instrument rated, but you may not be current. Or maybe the IMC is icy or below minimums. Do you get a clearance and fly him home? Let him work out a solution? Make him divert and wait it out? Or some combination -- say let him get you on the ground somewhere, then fly him home IFR?

The student in question was not really advanced enough to make his own decision, at least not one that I would permit to be executed. He really wanted to go underneath the cloud deck, and even after I told him no, he kept subconsciously trying to descend, and I had to remind him of our desired altitude.

The aircraft was not legal for IFR, and with just a single NAV/COM, it was not practical for IFR either. I suppose I could have done a localizer approach somewhere if I had to.

Personally I favor the building block approach to training. The FAA's emphasis on SBT assumes that ADM cannot be learned by example. I believe that is a logical flaw in the current guidance. If someone exhibits hazardous attitudes, training technique is probably not going to have much effect.
 
I've already consulted with an aviation attorney and my accountant on using a plane for my business. I'm good to go with a PPL on either renting or owning and taking the write offs. No need for a commercial.

You specifically said you were going to deliver widgets. Further, yes, you can use a plane to fly yourself where you would normally drive a car. You can not be reimbursed by your business for the cost of flying

You need a new attorney
 
How is 'delivering widgets' being reimbursed for the cost of flying? He is being paid for his widgets, not the flying.
 
Because the FAA says so. You can't carry cargo for compensation. Hours alone are compensation.
 
So he could deliver unpaid samples, take orders later and ship them conventionally and be good to go?
 
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