Potential new pilot

[Billnye]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

I’m 35, relatively successful and did flight training throughout high school, getting about 115 hours.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

What other aircraft’s would you recommend?

Obviously more expensive than Southwest before anyone chimes in. It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

 

[AV8R_87]

No insurance company is going to touch you until you have a lot more hours than you have now. At least not in the kind of plane you're looking at. Your route is also on the challenging side, requiring a good deal of experience, good judgement and ADM.
I'd say you should look at a PC-12, and plan on hiring a pilot to fly with you for a while. Best way to ensure you won't become a statistic and a multi-page accident discussion thread on PoA.

 

[M20K]

Your flight Direct appears to be 1,057nm and the Vision Jet has an IFR range of about 1,200 to 1,275nm. And the Pilatus has an IFR range of approx. 1,765 to 1,803nm. This may not be the latest info, but still, with potential IFR rerouting in or out of SNA, you might have to stop somewhere along the way in the Vision Jet.

But before you even go down that road, you're probably going to want to join a club or buy something like a Cirrus SR22 and start building LOTS of hours and get your Instrument rating. Right now I doubt anyone would insure you to fly a Pilatus or Vision Jet.

 

[asicer]

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

Going between two rather sizable airliner terminals, it isn't exactly easy to justify GA. That's not really the strength of small aircraft.

 

[RyanB]

I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

Only you can determine that.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

Not sure how deep your pockets are, but that’s going to take some time. You’re going to need an instrument rating at bare minimum. Insurance in both of those aircraft is going to be very difficult until you get at least 1,000 hours total time and 50-100 turbine.

It’s a good goal, but let’s make sure expectations are realistic.

 

[Tools]

I know people who have done it…

I’d recommend the Pilatus, honestly easier than a big piston, WAY better than a piston twin.

The jet comes with lots of other issues, I have a decent amount of single engine jet time, and I instructed in one.

Turbo props are magnificent. Air Force students are successfully transitioning from Cessnas to T-6 Texan IIs daily.

If you’re successful enough to afford these things, you likely have the acumen. Give it a shot, find a GOOD instructor and listen to what they have to say.

 

[asicer]

I’d recommend the Pilatus

How fast can it do the SNA-DAL run? How does that compare to Southwest? (2:55 eastbound, 3:05 westbound)

 

[MauleSkinner]

How fast can it do the SNA-DAL run? How does that compare to Southwest? (2:55 eastbound, 3:05 westbound)

Note that those times are at least doubled if you’re in the middle seat.

 

[sarangan]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

I’m 35, relatively successful and did flight training throughout high school, getting about 115 hours.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

What other aircraft’s would you recommend?

Obviously more expensive than Southwest before anyone chimes in. It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

I’m actually more curious about the background to this question. Back in 2017, you posted about preparing for your private pilot checkride. Did that not end up happening? As for whether it is “worth it” to get a pilot certificate, that is not really something anyone else can answer for you. You should first earn the basic certificates and ratings - private, instrument, and commercial - then build real-world experience. After that, you would be in a much better position to decide whether it is realistic to shuttle your family 1,000 miles in a jet or turbine aircraft. It certainly can be done, but those are very premature questions if you have not yet taken the first step.

 

[Lindberg]

I’m actually more curious about the background to this question. Back in 2017, you posted about preparing for your private pilot checkride. Did that not end up happening? As for whether it is “worth it” to get a pilot certificate, that is not really something anyone else can answer for you. You should first earn the basic certificates and ratings - private, instrument, and commercial - then build real-world experience. After that, you would be in a much better position to decide whether it is realistic to shuttle your family 1,000 miles in a jet or turbine aircraft. It certainly can be done, but those are very premature questions if you have not yet taken the first step.

Posting history does indicate the OP has a pattern of getting ahead of himself. One foot in front of the other and one step at a time is the way to do this. Get your private, start working on your instrument rating, then think about real cross country flying.

 

[Clip4]

I’m actually more curious about the background to this question. Back in 2017, you posted about preparing for your private pilot checkride. Did that not end up happening? As for whether it is “worth it” to get a pilot certificate, that is not really something anyone else can answer for you. You should first earn the basic certificates and ratings - private, instrument, and commercial - then build real-world experience. After that, you would be in a much better position to decide whether it is realistic to shuttle your family 1,000 miles in a jet or turbine aircraft. It certainly can be done, but those are very premature questions if you have not yet taken the first step.

How dare you use facts to interfere with dreams.

 

[Albany Tom]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

I’m 35, relatively successful and did flight training throughout high school, getting about 115 hours.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

What other aircraft’s would you recommend?

Obviously more expensive than Southwest before anyone chimes in. It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

I'll be cold. It's never worth it, economically, to get your pilot's license unless you're going to make a career out of it.

It's never worth it, economically, to own your own plane, unless you're trying to make a living at it.

Pepsi, 30 years ago, used to keep a King Air at Albany as a corporate airplane. Pepsi. So did one of the local banks, except it was a jet. Now neither does, nor do probably most businesses. They either fly their people commercially, or for important freight or people they charter. Because it's more economical.

If you'd have asked "Is it worth the time to learn to fly, for the benefit I'll get from the enjoyment of flying?" you might get a different answer. But... You have 100+ hours and you don't have your certificate. Which tells me that you don't have something pulling you to fly, something driving your to fly, which is what most people on here have.

So if you go down the road of buying a plane and learning how to fly it so that you can have more freedom, you've got a decent chance of being another headline of someone doing something they shouldn't. Because you probably won't put the time and effort into being good at it and being current at it. There is a time cost to those things that isn't small.

For your freedom, charter. It's easy, and per the hour I'm willing to bet anyone lunch it's going to be way cheaper. Oh, and for everyone's sake including your family's, when the weather is bad, just don't go. You may have someone or something telling you that you "have to go", but I promise you, you don't.

Sorry for being cold.

 

[bonefishpete]

Netjets or similar.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

I have a nephew who is a successful businessman. He did something recently that might be an option for you. He purchased a twin engine airplane with a lease back agreement to the flight school he is working with. He is not yet a pilot, but he is nearly ready for a check ride. He has not trained in twins yet, but this airplane is the type that he is interested in owing, and with the leese back to the flight school it should pay for itself even if he never flies it.

He bought a Piper Turbo Aztec, a twin piston, six seat aircraft. The purchase works for him because the flight school needs complex twin trainers and are willing to accept his airplane and use it in their training operations. That airplane might work for you but it might not make your 1060 NM trip non stop. Range is listed as 800-1320 NM, so depending on loading and wind, a stop may be required. My XC experience tells me a fuel stop adds about an hour if you stop at a local airport, more if the airport is larger with a control tower. This aircraft can utilize a 2000 ft runway and burns 100LL avgas, so you can refuel almost anywhere.

You are a new pilot and you have a preferred mission in mind. That is a good thing. Picking an airplane and developing a plan to complete that mission are the tasks in front of you. In some ways your situation is similar to his.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[jayhawk74]

Since you are interested in the Pilatus I would look into becoming a 91K Owner with Plane Sense and let them do the flying. I would then work on getting your Instrument Rating and all the appropriate endorsements.

 

[Clip4]

A used Pilatus is about $5 million + annual costs and you are relatively successful age 35 with a family. I doubt you have enough relativity considering the median household income for your age is $110k.

 

[Tarrow]

Do it because you love aviation. Don’t treat it primarily as another means to avoid commercial flights. Early on you get a license to learn. It’s not passing a flight test and you’re done. It constant learning to be safe.

 

[Half Fast]

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves

Taking those two statements together, you’re essentially asking us whether you’ll enjoy a Cirrus or Pilatus enough to justify completing your training.

How the heck would we know how much you will enjoy something?

People do, of course, own and enjoy these planes, but you have your cart ahead of your horse. First complete your training, then take your family on a few shorter trips in rental aircraft. Then you can decide for yourself what you (and your family!) like without asking strangers to tell you.

 

[rhkennerly]

I’m kinda hung up on “worth it.” In what sense “worth it?” You’ve got enough training to be able to answer that question of “worth it” in a personal fulfillment sense. Financially, you’ll not likely make it “worth it” even with tax breaks & write downs. Hanger, maintenance, operating costs, insurance plus a PPL, complex sign off, & an instrument rating plus lots of specialty training are in your future. You’ll have a steep learning curve & it will require a lot of time with the books & in the air to fly airplanes in the class you’re contemplating. Do you have the time to do it right? Things at those speeds happen fast & require experience & judgement that only come with experience.

Best solution in the comments so far: Do a lease back or go fractional. Hire a pilot for those flights when you need the plane. Then work on your PPL &, since these are single pilot airplanes, fly the right seat on trips to gain insight into what is actually required.

Don’t be these pc-12 pilots:

. And if you do become like these pilots, don’t pack your family genetic experiment into the back of it. They deserve better.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Ya gotta love watching the envy ramp up here when someone talks about getting into the high end of GA (turbo prop or jet).

 

[Domenick]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.
...
I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?
...
Obviously more expensive than Southwest before anyone chimes in. It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

No. It is not worth your time. You'll lose interest when you see how much work, time, and effort it takes to attain the certificate and ratings it will require. And if you do complete all the training and buy a suitable plane, you'll soon realize the work, time, and effort it takes to maintain and fly such an aircraft is more trouble than it's worth compared to simply hopping on a Southwest flight.

Unless you have been afflicted with the aviation bug, and it seems you have not, bag it and spend your time doing something you love or are driven/compelled to do.

 

[AV8R_87]

the leese back to the flight school it should pay for itself

A C-172 on leaseback barely pays for itself. I do not share your optimism on a twin doing that.

 

[Lindberg]

Ya gotta love watching the envy ramp up here when someone talks about getting into the high end of GA (turbo prop or jet).

Perhaps not envy, but skepticism. The OP has been on the verge of getting his license for at least ten years. With that kind of time (chronological and flight), if he hasn't buckled down and done it yet, IMHO, he doesn't have the commitment necessary to safely accomplish what he's contemplating here.

 

[rhkennerly]

Ya gotta love watching the envy ramp up here when someone talks about getting into the high end of GA (turbo prop or jet).

I don’t see envy, i see experience. We’ve seen this same story play out several times before here on POA. I’d wager a substantial number of us have down shifted because of the costs at higher levels of ownership & the time & effort required to stay competent in fast movers. It’s not envy but experience.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Perhaps not envy, but skepticism. The OP has been on the verge of getting his license for at least ten years. With that kind of time (chronological and flight), if he hasn't buckled down and done it yet, IMHO, he doesn't have the commitment necessary to safely accomplish what he's contemplating here.

But isn't that up to him? Maybe he was busy with his business growing it and now has the time to pursue other endeavors.

That's reaching declaring someone you don't know doesn't have the commitment without knowing the rest of the story.

Again, it's the envy rearing it's head here again.

 

[Lindberg]

But isn't that up to him?

Of course, and nobody said it isn't.

Maybe he was busy with his business growing it and now has the time to pursue other endeavors.

Maybe. Although his posts have suggested he's an independently wealthy man with plenty of free time.

That's reaching declaring someone you don't know doesn't have the commitment without knowing the rest of the story.

I'm not declaring anything, I'm stating what appears to me based on specific limited information.

Again, it's the envy rearing it's head here again.

I'd love to have someone fly me around in a Pilatus. But I don't have the time, money, or even the inclination to do it myself. If I was doing that type of flying, I'd treat it like a job, and I have no interest in treating my flying that way. Even if I had Pilatus money, I wouldn't spend it on a Pilatus.

Based on the poster's history, I don't see him treating it that way. And frankly, we've seen enough pilots with the money and time to get into these types of planes that only wind up killing themselves faster. Of course there are many more who do it successfully, but the limited information I have about the OP points me in a particular direction.

 

[M20K]

I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

The other thing to factor in on the"is it worth it" question. Factor in if you would only fly to SNA to DAL or would you make multiple trips to other places for fun weekends, etc.

 

[Racerx]

But isn't that up to him? Maybe he was busy with his business growing it and now has the time to pursue other endeavors.

That's reaching declaring someone you don't know doesn't have the commitment without knowing the rest of the story.

Again, it's the envy rearing it's head here again.

My issue is more his timeline. He's 35. Has all these hours from high school which was 18 years ago. But checked in 10 years ago being nearly checkride ready. Then asked about being an illegal owner operator a few years after that. So I'm a little confused that something stalled out.

If this post was a typo and he's 25 and able to buy a multi million dollar aircraft, yeah I'm a little envious. But I'm first a little skeptical on the story that got us here.

If the story checks out, I'd say it's time to **** or get off the pot.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

I’m 35, relatively successful and did flight training throughout high school, getting about 115 hours.

Congratulations to you. At the tender age of 35, you have achieved a level of success that makes such aircraft attainable.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

This statement was the motivation for my reply. You love your family, and you accept responsibilty for their safety, security, and wellbeing. Next time you're together with your family, look into the eyes of your kids. Imagine how you would feel if you, as PIC of your personal airplane, made a mistake that resulted in a serious life-changing injury to them or worse, cost them their lives. That's a sobering thought, but it is a grim possibility that you must consider.

Compare the standard of safety achieved by scheduled airlines to that of owner-flown general aviation operations. Do your own research: the statistics are eye-watering, and they don't lie. Now, with that in mind, look at your family again. By loading them into your personal aircraft and pulling the chocks, do you really want to expose them to a level of risk that is, statistically, far greater than flying the airlines? Of course not. But. . .

As PIC of your own personal airliner, will you have the skills, experience, judgement, humility, and self-discipline necessary to mitigate risk to such a degree that the safety of your operation rivals that of the airline flight that you could have taken instead? That, I believe, is the real question that you must ask yourself at this point. Achieving that level of safety, especially in a single-pilot GA operation, requires an uncompromising level of dedication, focus, and committment. It also requres deep and honest personal reflection.

Serious consideration of the above should strongly influence the path that you follow.

It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

I agree with you: flying is freedom and enjoyment, until the moment that I accept the responsibility for a passenger. Then the equation changes dramatically.

 

[4RNB]

Hi all,
I am curious if it’s worth getting my pilots license.

I’m 35, relatively successful and did flight training throughout high school, getting about 115 hours.

I’d like to pick it back up to potentially ferry my family back and forth from SNA to DAL.

Worth going through the training for a cirrus jet or pilatus?

What other aircraft’s would you recommend?

Obviously more expensive than Southwest before anyone chimes in. It’s about freedom and being able to enjoy ourselves.

I'd say it depends upon the reason you have 115 hours but no license.
I'd also try and fly a bit before buying, then even consider something to build hours/confidence/competence in. Something akin to everyone's first plane. Heck, even experimental.
That Cirrus jet looks mighty nice, but I recall a review video that went over limitations/performance that made it seem like other options could be much better.
Insurance is a nothing burger if you ignore what most people do. Self insure it, liability only is an option to start.

 

[Half Fast]

Insurance is a nothing burger if you ignore what most people do. Self insure it, liability only is an option to start.

Of course, that's assuming he's paying cash. Otherwise, a lending institution may have other ideas about the need for insurance.

 

[4RNB]

Of course, that's assuming he's paying cash. Otherwise, a lending institution may have other ideas about the need for insurance.

Or my half full glass view is to use an unsecured loan. I think I put 20% down on a 172, had approval within an hour, and don't recall any finance issues that held up the purchase. They dont care what the money gets used for...

 

[Albany Tom]

Again, it's the envy rearing it's head here again.

I was kinda aiming at the OP, but I get it, it's the Internet. And I admit being cold, but perhaps I also wasn't too clear. I'll try more direct, maybe with shorter words.

At 100 hrs w/o a license, I'm leaning toward someone either struggling, or not having much of an interest, especially combined with an opening statement questioning their path. Well, if someone isn't sure of their skill, I'll be the first to try to help them past what is possibly just a lack of confidence. We get quite a few people here, including a recent one where someone wondered if they were to old to start flying. The group overall, myself included, is supportive of those folks. But if they don't know if they're interested after a hundred hours, but still maybe wants to buy the plane, then I'd say perhaps it's not for them.

My motivations are partly selfish. I really don't want another high profile accident of someone that thought they were talented or smart enough to fly an aircraft without the required experience and training. It's not good for GA. I'm NOT suggesting that OP would do that, but it's absolutely a possibility. Similarly, but with potentially a less selfish motive, I don't want to read about said accident where they took their family and friends with them, like any number of business people, sports people, etc.

There are many successful people who pursue flying expensive aircraft, jets to P-51's, because they have a passion for it and they love it. They're doing great things for GA just by flying around and being safe. I can't speak for anyone else - nor really can anyone do better than guess at that - but I have no envy for those folks. Those folks generally don't seem to ask, either. They want to fly, they want to learn to fly, and that's their driving force. Awesome.

I'll take the hit for being arrogant, a bit selfish, and more than a little self-righteous, but not envy. I don't give a f*** how much money anyone makes.

 

[4RNB]

I'll be cold. It's never worth it, economically, to get your pilot's license unless you're going to make a career out of it.

It's never worth it, economically, to own your own plane, unless you're trying to make a living at it.

Pepsi, 30 years ago, used to keep a King Air at Albany as a corporate airplane. Pepsi. So did one of the local banks, except it was a jet. Now neither does, nor do probably most businesses. They either fly their people commercially, or for important freight or people they charter. Because it's more economical.

If you'd have asked "Is it worth the time to learn to fly, for the benefit I'll get from the enjoyment of flying?" you might get a different answer. But... You have 100+ hours and you don't have your certificate. Which tells me that you don't have something pulling you to fly, something driving your to fly, which is what most people on here have.

So if you go down the road of buying a plane and learning how to fly it so that you can have more freedom, you've got a decent chance of being another headline of someone doing something they shouldn't. Because you probably won't put the time and effort into being good at it and being current at it. There is a time cost to those things that isn't small.

For your freedom, charter. It's easy, and per the hour I'm willing to bet anyone lunch it's going to be way cheaper. Oh, and for everyone's sake including your family's, when the weather is bad, just don't go. You may have someone or something telling you that you "have to go", but I promise you, you don't.

Sorry for being cold.

Gimme a break.
I am at a very small city, smallish airport. MANY of the local businesses have planes!
And so does Pepsi. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Pepsi

 

[Albany Tom]

Gimme a break.
I am at a very small city, smallish airport. MANY of the local businesses have planes!
And so does Pepsi. https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Pepsi

I never said they didn't. But the examples I gave aren't unusual, either. Pepsi, with a bottling plant about 600 yards from the airport, used to have an aircraft based there. Key Bank, founded in Albany, used to have a plane based at ALB, too. They got rid of it years ago. But I see various charters at the FBO almost every day.

From a quick google, most Fortune 100/500 companies are moving toward fractional ownership or charter services. With something like 40% of Fortune 100 using netjets in particular. That's absolutely not everyone, and many are going to have their own fleets, but it doesn't mean it's done for the economy of it, either.

 

[Catfish47]

Congratulations to you. At the tender age of 35, you have achieved a level of success that makes such aircraft attainable.

This statement was the motivation for my reply. You love your family, and you accept responsibilty for their safety, security, and wellbeing. Next time you're together with your family, look into the eyes of your kids. Imagine how you would feel if you, as PIC of your personal airplane, made a mistake that resulted in a serious life-changing injury to them or worse, cost them their lives. That's a sobering thought, but it is a grim possibility that you must consider.

Compare the standard of safety achieved by scheduled airlines to that of owner-flown general aviation operations. Do your own research: the statistics are eye-watering, and they don't lie. Now, with that in mind, look at your family again. By loading them into your personal aircraft and pulling the chocks, do you really want to expose them to a level of risk that is, statistically, far greater than flying the airlines? Of course not. But. . .

As PIC of your own personal airliner, will you have the skills, experience, judgement, humility, and self-discipline necessary to mitigate risk to such a degree that the safety of your operation rivals that of the airline flight that you could have taken instead? That, I believe, is the real question that you must ask yourself at this point. Achieving that level of safety, especially in a single-pilot GA operation, requires an uncompromising level of dedication, focus, and committment. It also requres deep and honest personal reflection.

Serious consideration of the above should strongly influence the path that you follow.


I agree with you: flying is freedom and enjoyment, until the moment that I accept the responsibility for a passenger. Then the equation changes dramatically.

Not the OP, but I’m keeping this post for myself to refer back to every once in a while for motivation and clarity. Particularly the part about having the commitment and doing what it takes to ensure my flight operations rival the safety of the airlines, especially with loved ones onboard.

If you have any pointers for making sure I reach and maintain this standard, like specific risk-mitigation courses or the like, I’m all ears.

I do not own an airplane, I have my private and my goal right now is becoming instrument rated. At some point in the next however-many years I would like to own my own plane and fly with family. My aspirations are nowhere near the OP’s as far as aircraft, though. I plan to stick with normally aspirated piston single engine with fixed landing gear.

 

[mryan75]

Compare the standard of safety achieved by scheduled airlines to that of owner-flown general aviation operations.

Huge fan of first class myself.

 

[MikeNY]

If you have any pointers for making sure I reach and maintain this standard, like specific risk-mitigation courses or the like, I’m all ears.

Consider ...
FAA Safety Program - Wings
www.faasafety.gov

REF: Advisory Circular 61-91K, WINGS - Pilot Proficiency Program

 

[Roger Wilco]

Not the OP, but I’m keeping this post for myself to refer back to every once in a while for motivation and clarity. Particularly the part about having the commitment and doing what it takes to ensure my flight operations rival the safety of the airlines, especially with loved ones onboard.

If you have any pointers for making sure I reach and maintain this standard, like specific risk-mitigation courses or the like, I’m all ears.

I do not own an airplane, I have my private and my goal right now is becoming instrument rated. At some point in the next however-many years I would like to own my own plane and fly with family. My aspirations are nowhere near the OP’s as far as aircraft, though. I plan to stick with normally aspirated piston single engine with fixed landing gear.

Catfish47, reading your post left me thinking that you're on the right path. As for pointers, that might be a great topic for a separate thread. There are a lot of very knowledgeable and experienced pilots on this board, and I'm sure you would get some great suggestions.

 

[Catfish47]

Consider ...
FAA Safety Program - Wings
www.faasafety.gov

REF: Advisory Circular 61-91K, WINGS - Pilot Proficiency Program

Oh yeah! I've done some of those classes before, I just logged in again and am perusing courses now.

Catfish47, reading your post left me thinking that you're on the right path. As for pointers, that might be a great topic for a separate thread. There are a lot of very knowledgeable and experienced pilots on this board, and I'm sure you would get some great suggestions.

That's a good idea. I'm a low-time pilot, I'd be grateful to soak up any good info from those more knowledgeable and experienced.