Possible Dangers of Memory Flying

Nauga - funny cartoon of jargon speak. I always come back to this....

 
hindsight2020 said:
Variation for Herbivores. 'Prey', 'Target', 'TOADs', 'fatties', 'heavies', 'blunt nose', and my favorite: 'he who taxi too slow/never staggers', in my best Native American inflection. :D

Terms of endearment for transport category aircraft [mobility/tanker, and special use variants of the same like AWACS, EA, and ASW] and their pilots.
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That article on TOADs is really interesting.
 
Ground pounders got jargon too. Unfortunately it's mostly just the F word used as a noun, verb, and adjective.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Just got off an invigorating conversation and the subject of checklist usage came up. Got me asking the question:
What are the risks of performing Climb, Cruise (enroute), Descent and landing phases of flight while only using memory and flows? What risks are mitigated by using a checklist over a flow in these phases of flight? More to the point, I'm interested in accident cases where the use of a checklist could have broken the accident chain.
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Getting back to the O.P.'s initial question, I would say that the need for a checklist is so heavily dependent on aircraft type, that there is no simple answer. The more complex the aircraft, the more importance should be placed on the proper use of a checklist (e.g., Beech King Air vs. Cessna 150). There is also the factor involving familiarity with the aircraft type ... newbie?, use the checklist ... old pro?, not so much ... maybe. There are also examples of a crew "going heads-down" and becoming so absorbed with an emergency checklist that they forgot to fly the airplane.

I once flew as passenger on a Britten-Norman Islander from San Juan to Mayaquez, Puerto Rico. The pilot put his friend in the right seat, and it was a gabfest between the two of them from takeoff to turning final at Mayaguez, at which time the pilot realized that he already had partial flaps still deployed from his take off in San Juan. The consequences of this were minor (slight embarrassment), but in other circumstances with another aircraft type ...

In my limited flying days of "long ago and far away" I always considered myself a newbie, and used checklists (such as they were back then) frequently.
 
Half Fast said:
I really don't like the checklists like the Checkmate style. Way too cluttered, and too much stuff I don't need at a particular time. Plus I prefer something that's customized for my plane and my own needs (like bolding or highlighting an item I'm prone to overlook).

I made my checklist using multiple pages, 8"x5.5", slipped into plastic sleeves and then made into a booklet with small rings. It's arranged so that I don't have to turn pages during any single phase. For example, all the pre-flight stuff is on two pages, so they're back to back and I just flip it over. Start, taxi, and run-up checklists are the same way. Cruise and landing are on one page so I don't have to turn pages or hunt for an item in flight. The emergency checklist has a red tab so I can flip to it immediately.

Each page also has a unique border color: brown for pre-flight, green for start, taxi, and run-up, blue for in-flight, red for emergency. That makes it easy to know I'm on the correct list.

Doing it this way buries unneeded material out of sight, and it also lets me use a large enough font that I can read it easily without reading glasses and while getting bounced around in chop.
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Almost exactly what I have except the cards are 3x5.

Cheers
 
hindsight2020 said:
Same reason airline guys speak shop. It's just shop talk/banter.


Not quite. That the majority of herbies happen to be crew airplanes is actually incidental, not causal. It is their non-kinetic and (generally) non-maneuverable nature that makes them so. Another aspect is pilot-centric, specifically the perception said pilots do not have a tactical mindset within their communities, whether as a function of low morale across their MWS (thats .mil "code" for major weapon system), or just a general lack of mission focus for reasons that run the gamut and are beyond the scope of this thread. And yes, comporting oneself with the overt approach that one's primary duty in the military is time building for the airlines, makes said pilot a raging herbivore.

Examples of non-herbie crew aircraft exist, say most bombers to include the B-15 *cough* er I mean F-15E mudhen. AC-130 is a rare example of an aircraft series that falls both in the herbie (slicks) and carnivore (gunship) variant. In the end, it's a bit of a mindset as far as the pilot side of the moniker is concerned. Plenty of historical examples of tanker pilots who went above and beyond, putting their non-ejection seated rears in lethal danger in order to assist a carnivore get home. TOAD may be a joke, but it's also not; it was very much a stipulated outcome in the nuclear triad for those guys. That takes stones.
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Basic difference, can it shoot back. :D
 
One thing is, flow is not the same thing and not running a checklist. It is just a different kind of checklist. You use the cockpit items as the checklist.

I have modified my check lists for my Mooney and run them in MiraChek. Gives me a challenge response, but without a second person.
 
A checklist has saved me several times.
I have an aircraft with very simple systems.

Most Vans folks leave their flaps down to facilitate entry/exit.
There have been a few times I almost took off with full flaps.
On more than one occasion I almost took off without my canopy latched.

I've seen alternator issues. Fuel pump issues.
Most of these are all pre takeoff.

To be honest, I don't really use a checklist for landing.
 
Capngrog said:
Getting back to the O.P.'s initial question, I would say that the need for a checklist is so heavily dependent on aircraft type,
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Here's the problem. You are learning something when you don't use a checklist namely, not using a checklist. I've told this story before:

I was doing a 182 transition for a 172 pilot. Those who have done it know how easy it is. Only a PA28-1## to PA28-235 is as easy. Like many, he stopped using the 172 before landing checklist even while a student pilot. After all, the fuel is on both already. Only the mixture needs adjusting. That's about it. Who needs a checklist for that?

He did fine with the 182 but kept neglecting the cowl flaps. Even after repeated prompting. Finally, on final I simply said, "You forgot something." He searched in vain all around the cockpit trying to figure out what he missed. Everyplace except one - the checklist sitting in his line of sight on the glare shield. Habits are hard to break and he had developed the habit of ignoring the checklist. It didn't even cross his mind to use it. Habits are hard to break.

I've seen the same behavior many times since.
 
Kritchlow said:
Not really, but I’ll take you at your word.
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Think of it like this.... Meat eaters are combat Soldiers/Pilots/Marines while leaf eaters are support staff in non-combat roles. It is just banter back and forth between service members.
 
Adam Weiss said:
To be honest, I don't really use a checklist for landing.
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In my simple plane I have a short memory list for landing. When the windsock comes into view or before entering downwind:

C - carb heat
L - landing light (wig wags)
A - auto pilot
M - mixture

All the rest as far as trim, flaps, throttle, speed, altitude, etc. comes under; "fly the plane - we've done this before"
 
I think someone is missing a card:

Screen-shot-2013-05-15-at-9.29.12-AM.png
 
I learned a long time ago to use the checklist.
Not look at the checklist.
Not run through the checklist.
USE the checklist. Item by item.
Memory goes out the window as soon as something distracts you.
My plane has no electrical system, a tach, airspeed, turn and bank indicator, a compass. oil temp and pressure and a compass.
Oh, it does have a fuel gauge, mounted on the fuel tank, under the instrument panel. You need to lay down on the seat with a flashlight to see it. While flying.
My checklist is 67 items.
I check every one of them before I fly, and after I fly. If I get distracted, I start over again. If I have to walk away from the plane, unless the hanger is closed and locked, I start over again.
Paranoia is a good thing.
 
The only time my primary flight instructor allowed me to not use the checklist was for emergency procedures, e.g., engine-out. Those were simple enough to commit to memory. And I still remember the ones for the 172 35 years later (and more than 28 years since I've flown a 172).
 
Bob Noel said:
The only time my primary flight instructor allowed me to not use the checklist was for emergency procedures, e.g., engine-out. Those were simple enough to commit to memory. And I still remember the ones for the 172 35 years later (and more than 28 years since I've flown a 172).
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Best glide, best place isn't that hard to remember.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Best glide, best place isn't that hard to remember.
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Add to that Carb Heat if equipped. Important to get that one while there is some heat left. The rest you can take your time, if high enough. And if not high enough, not time to do them anyway.
 
Bob Noel said:
The only time my primary flight instructor allowed me to not use the checklist was for emergency procedures, e.g., engine-out. Those were simple enough to commit to memory. And I still remember the ones for the 172 35 years later (and more than 28 years since I've flown a 172).
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Ironically, it seems like while GA planes tend to have way too many items on their normal checklists, they don't have enough on their emergency checklists!

Generally, the first things on the engine failure checklist are things like "Mixture - Rich" and "Fuel tanks - Switch". They completely miss the most important things: Establish Vg and look for a place to land. And since in an emergency your brain is going to leave you, I believe those items should be listed on the checklist just to ensure they're the first things you do and that you don't forget them. After all, that's the entire point of having a checklist!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ironically, it seems like while GA planes tend to have way too many items on their normal checklists, they don't have enough on their emergency checklists!

Generally, the first things on the engine failure checklist are things like "Mixture - Rich" and "Fuel tanks - Switch". They completely miss the most important things: Establish Vg and look for a place to land. And since in an emergency your brain is going to leave you, I believe those items should be listed on the checklist just to ensure they're the first things you do and that you don't forget them. After all, that's the entire point of having a checklist!
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I might agree on glide speed, but a checklist shouldn’t include basic airmanship items like finding a place to land. That’s how we get the crappy checklists that pilots complain about.
 
Pinecone said:
Add to that Carb Heat if equipped. Important to get that one while there is some heat left. The rest you can take your time, if high enough. And if not high enough, not time to do them anyway.
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Agreed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I might agree on glide speed, but a checklist shouldn’t include basic airmanship items like finding a place to land. That’s how we get the crappy checklists that pilots complain about.
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I would argue that glide speed is also a basic airmanship item, but in an emergency everything is liable to go out the window.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I would argue that glide speed is also a basic airmanship item,
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true…interestingly, most of the jets I’ve flown include the speed to fly in the immediate action (memory) items for engine failure on takeoff and one engine inop missed approach. On the other hand, the one that I can say for sure doesn’t include a speed or AOA in the dual engine flameout checklist. Probably because the first two have performance charts that require proper speed control, where no performance charts exist for the dual engine flameout.

but in an emergency everything is liable to go out the window.
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Also true. But one of the things checklists, and particularly immediate action items, do is provide a procedure so your brain can calm down and deal with the problem. I believe I got this from one of Doug Rozendaal’s posts somewhere… “Procedures create order out of chaos.”

edit: Also consider that the goal of the engine failure checklist is to restart the engine. There’s probably an emergency landing checklist that tells you to fly the proper speed and land.
 
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The engine-failure procedure that my instructor had me memorize started with "carb heat, trim for best glide speed, turn towards a field." Then came a flow that began with "whichever side takes you first to fuel."
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I would argue that glide speed is also a basic airmanship item, but in an emergency everything is liable to go out the window.
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For all that AOPA don't do ... now and then a blind squirrel finds an acorn. Here's a tip from them (short and to the point):

 
For engine out, its as easy as A B C
Airspeed, Best place to land, Checklist.

The first 2 we do and do and do until its a reaction without thinking so they aren't trying to remember what A and B are. Maybe instructors don't do enough engine out simulations.

I will say, however, when I have inadvertently dry tanked (uneven fuel draw) and the engine went quiet my first reaction wasn't airspeed, it was reaching down and turning the fuel selector while checking the gauges.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ironically, it seems like while GA planes tend to have way too many items on their normal checklists, they don't have enough on their emergency checklists!

Generally, the first things on the engine failure checklist are things like "Mixture - Rich" and "Fuel tanks - Switch". They completely miss the most important things: Establish Vg and look for a place to land. And since in an emergency your brain is going to leave you, I believe those items should be listed on the checklist just to ensure they're the first things you do and that you don't forget them. After all, that's the entire point of having a checklist!
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Also helps for prepping and mental rehearsal.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Erroneous! (11F core ID). But I know what you meant (NSFW). :rofl:


btw, LARP is spelled A-D-A-I-R. :p
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FWIW I just flew a trip with a C-5 turned UPT T-38 LARP'er. He was good ****. The things you guys had to just pucker up and wait to see happen, teaching transitions or just generally clueless undergrads......respect. That's slightly less than single pilot, if I am accurately describing the SA suck from a below avg guy/gal in the other seat :) (not saying transition pilots in general are this way, for the record)
 
My buddy that I fly with uses the foreflight checklist. The run up seemed like it took forever to go through. And the. Pre landing he is fumbling around with the iPad so much he didn’t realize we were in a 20 deg bank. I was gonna let it keep going, but he finally noticed.
 
MauleSkinner said:
true…interestingly, most of the jets I’ve flown include the speed to fly in the immediate action (memory) items for engine failure on takeoff and one engine inop missed approach. On the other hand, the one that I can say for sure doesn’t include a speed or AOA in the dual engine flameout checklist. Probably because the first two have performance charts that require proper speed control, where no performance charts exist for the dual engine flameout.


Also true. But one of the things checklists, and particularly immediate action items, do is provide a procedure so your brain can calm down and deal with the problem. I believe I got this from one of Doug Rozendaal’s posts somewhere… “Procedures create order out of chaos.”

edit: Also consider that the goal of the engine failure checklist is to restart the engine. There’s probably an emergency landing checklist that tells you to fly the proper speed and land.
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GA misses that idea of Immediate Action items versus Checklist. Or for USAF, Bold Face versus checklist.

To explain to others, certain things are memorized and repeated over and over. So that in am emergency, you follow those immediate steps without thinking or reaching for the checklist.
 
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