Police Ramp Checks

Ghery said:
Off the topic of this thread, but...

How was the Symphony to fly? I mean, other than "like a Skyhawk". I sat in one at Sun-n-Fun a few years ago and thought it looked like a good plane to consider.
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A quick search found a picture of the one I used for my checkride: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/558716.html

The pic shows it next to a Skyhawk, so you can see some dimensional similarities. It had two seats vs. 4, was a little lighter (1,960lbs gross weight if I recall), and held less fuel. The reason I chose the Symphony vs. a Skyhawk was that the school's Skyhawks were ancient; the Symphony had a G430/G420 setup, and was just a whole lot cleaner. It wa a little tougher to get into with the stick, but was sportier and more fun with the stick. It's not very attractive in my opinion - this was before LSAs, but it has an LSA look with a composite fuselage - but it was fun to fly. Since it had a castering nosewheel, I had to unlearn using differential braking when I started flying 172s.

Overall, it was great for training, but I'm not sure I'd buy one, unless you want a fun little plane to take to $100 hamburger places. Mine didn't have an autopilot (though it trimmed up pretty well), so I don't see it being comfortable for long cross countries.
 
Never got ramped check by a cop or FAA inspector, but an american express flight attendant from a flight that parked on the gate next to mine demanded (by asking rudely and with authoritative voice) I show her a badge because I was on a restricted area. I had just landed and was getting off my airplane. I had to tell her "see that plane over there? well that's mine, what do you expect me to do? teletransport to the terminal? or land and taxi to the airport parking lot?" nevertheless she called the cops on me. Cop came by and told me to ignore her. I guess she had a bad case of pms. well thats the closest I have come to a ramp check.
 
I had a flight from somewhere in the North East to Vero Beach. I remember because the cops that ramped me were the same that arrested Ron White. We had a nice talk about that.

Anyway, my passenger shows up with like 20 cases of wine. I tell him there's no way we can take it all but I do my best to get as much on as possible. I have 'em strapped into every seat available as the cargo compartment isn't heated (that makes putting my street clothes on after flying fun).

So we get loaded up and it's marginally legal at best. Everything is secured...but in a crash it's all going flying. I was actually concerned I may survive the crash but then die from alcohol poisoning!

So, we get to Vero and pull up to our parking spot and there's a guy in a suit and two cops. That can't be good I say as I open the door. The guy in the suit greets me and says he's here for a ramp check. Oh great. If he goes onboard he's not going to like it. I ask him if it's okay if I take care of my passengers first and he says, "no problem". Well, I at least had that going for me.

But then we had to offload all their stuff into their car that was planeside. I swear to god it looked like the clown car at the circus. Boxes and boxes and boxes just kept coming in an endless procession.

Finally it was all off and the pax left. Turns out thee FAA guy wasn't even really there for a ramp check but was there to teach the cops what they can and can't do. He showed them my license and medical, AC registration, air worthiness and such.

We talked a bit about Ron White too. The cops didn't know he put the incident into his stand up routine. Anyway, there's my weird ramp check story.

All told I've had about a dozen of them. Never been a problem except one the guy didn't like a worn placard on the outside of the plane at the emergency exit over the wing. Had to ferry the flight back to ORD and stranded 50 pax at the gate.
 
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John Baker said:
Unless you want to get tazed and arrested, in San Diego, if a cop asks, you better comply. Heck, they taze and arrest schoolchildren who ignore direct orders. Just did that a few weeks ago to a fourteen year old.

John
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I've been detained about 20 times for suspicious and "terroristic" (did not know that that was a word...) activity. Most officers are nice but some expect to say something and instantly have compliance. I was told to turn around (while I was walking,drinking,and on the phone. Lots of people around, didn't see a cop) and I didn't know it was directed at me. No one identified themselves or anything. Was grabbed (freaked out of course, random person grabbing me) and handcuffed, detained for investigation.

From my experience no matter how nice or calm the LEO is, they do not like being taught the law/that they are wrong! I'd just go along with their BS rather than getting shoved up against a wall again.
 
bigblockz8 said:
I've been detained about 20 times for suspicious and "terroristic" (did not know that that was a word...) activity.
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20 times? Jeez, Greg, what do you do -- walk around transportation hubs in Arab dress and a scraggly beard with simulated dynamite sticks strapped to your body and a "bin Laudin Lives" button stuck on your chest?:dunno:
 
We had an interesting experience just after 9/11. When we pulled up to where we normally did to get a burger, there were armed NG troops in a ring around the terminal where the commercial folks arrived in RJs (maybe two or three a day). No NOTAM, so we ask ground what to do and they direct us to a GA area just outside the guarded ring and we walk into the side of the same terminal building, get a burger and when we go to leave, the only exit is through security. We discuss this a bit and I'm carrying things that won't pass security. After scratching my head a bit, I approach an LE standing there and tell him I'm flying a plane on the ramp and carrying things that won't pass security (and share specifically what it is with him-concealed hand gun). He asks me for ID, then opens the side door of the terminal and we walk out to our plane and depart--no problemo.

Best,

Dave
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I've heard of it going both ways - officer thinks it's funny, officer gets ****ed off.
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Although I've given the LEOs plenty of opportunity, I've never heard one accuse me of flying and ask for a pilot license. If that ever happens I'd be happy to oblige. I did get out of a ticket once when stopped by a cop who noticed my AOPA member card that happened to come out of my wallet (really it was accidental!) with the driver's license. He said he was working on his PPL and let me off with a warning. Made my day!
 
MSPAviator said:
Anybody ever actually been ramp checked? I haven't.
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I have. Once doing mapping, once as a CFI and once doing charter. They were all non-events. I was also once tracked and followed by the US Customs Citation to a fuel stop. That was also a misunderstanding and ended up being no big deal.
 
Had customs/border patrol chopper land next to me one day as I was making a fuel stop and checked me out, I had been making passes at about 500-700' AGL over a deer lease close to the Mexico border in south Texas to check out the vegetation level and look at my feeders. They were understandably suspicious, ran a dog around the plane and were gone in 5 minutes. Quite polite and professional, but they could afford to be - they had me outnumbered 4:1 and heavily outgunned.
 
Everskyward said:
I have. Once doing mapping, once as a CFI and once doing charter. They were all non-events. I was also once tracked and followed by the US Customs Citation to a fuel stop. That was also a misunderstanding and ended up being no big deal.
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Most of the pilots who've said they've been ramped were flying jets and/or for hire.
 
gismo said:
Most of the pilots who've said they've been ramped were flying jets and/or for hire.
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I guess that's only one out of three for me as far as jets are concerned. They were all for hire, so to speak. Also, the customs incident was in a (piston) Twin Cessna.
 
When I was a student, doing a solo x-country.

When I was pushing the plane into the hangar after MVFR arrival. The Inspector failed to properly ID himself.

A CAP adult and cadet once tried ... That ended poorly for them.
 
nddons said:
A quick search found a picture of the one I used for my checkride: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/558716.html

The pic shows it next to a Skyhawk, so you can see some dimensional similarities. It had two seats vs. 4, was a little lighter (1,960lbs gross weight if I recall), and held less fuel. The reason I chose the Symphony vs. a Skyhawk was that the school's Skyhawks were ancient; the Symphony had a G430/G420 setup, and was just a whole lot cleaner. It wa a little tougher to get into with the stick, but was sportier and more fun with the stick. It's not very attractive in my opinion - this was before LSAs, but it has an LSA look with a composite fuselage - but it was fun to fly. Since it had a castering nosewheel, I had to unlearn using differential braking when I started flying 172s.

Overall, it was great for training, but I'm not sure I'd buy one, unless you want a fun little plane to take to $100 hamburger places. Mine didn't have an autopilot (though it trimmed up pretty well), so I don't see it being comfortable for long cross countries.
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I've got experience delivering/ferrying Symphony aircraft - they're short-legged but surprisingly comfortable. What ever they use in the seat is like that Tempur-pedic stuff. Starts off hard and then conforms and is very nice.

I've done flights from the west coast to Trois-Rivieres (the factory) and back a few times, and besides the stopping for fuel every couple of hours, I had no complaints. I typically flew 8-12 hour days depending on weather. The IFR Symphony is a nice stable platform too. I really didn't miss the autopilot.
 
AdamZ said:
LEOs will sometimes act at the request of Homeland security and checkout an aircraft at a small GA airport. Just ask Ted. Its kind of a joke as they really often have no idea what they are looking at in an aircraft.
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Boy you ain't a-kidding. The funniest thing was when they found the cannulas and asked if they were for the dogs.

gismo said:
Most of the pilots who've said they've been ramped were flying jets and/or for hire.
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I've been ramped once at KFRG with 65 hours total time - still had my temporary airman certificate. The inspector was a nice guy, we spent about 2/3 the time talking about airplanes rather than about the ramp inspection. He found one discrepancy - a torn airworthiness certificate on the club plane I was flying. He let me off with a warning, and told me when I got home to make sure the club officers had a new one issued.
 
AdamZ said:
How many local LEOs do you think know what a FSDO is?
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*raises hand*

Edit:depends on your definition of local I suppose.

Btw my agency has adopted the FARs in their entirety for the purpose of enforcement within our jurisdiction, which criminalizes any failure to "shall" or "will", or an act that is prohibited. Just thought I'd mention that to blow Ron's mind.
 
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alaskaflyer said:
Btw my agency has adopted the FARs in their entirety for the purpose of enforcement within our jurisdiction, which criminalizes any failure to "shall" or "will", or an act that is prohibited. Just thought I'd mention that to blow Ron's mind.
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While it is easy to understand why the Federal Acquisition Regulations should be followed by your agency, why would you post that here?
 
Clark1961 said:
While it is easy to understand why the Federal Acquisition Regulations should be followed by your agency, why would you post that here?
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As far as I know, the FAA has no jurisdiction over what abbreviations people use on message boards.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Why would an Inspector even consider doing something like that? (randomly ask someone in a grocery store)
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I had an inspector demand to see my cert and medical once. I was working the desk at the flight school that they were inspecting. I told him no. He demanded again. I told him no, again, and asked what the reason was that he needed to see the documents. He said something to the effect that since he knew I was pilot, I might just go out and fly one of the planes and he needed to make sure I was legal to fly.

Yes, I am a pilot. Yes, I just might go out and fly one of the planes. But while I'm sitting here behind a desk, you have no cause to see them and I will not show them to you. When I walk out to the plane and make like I'm heading to the runway with it, THEN I will show it to you. In the mean time, I am doing nothing that requires a pilots certificate or a medical.

That shut him up. He stood there speechless and then walked out the door.
The four CFI's that were sitting in the office had to pick their jaws up off the ground. lol.

For the next three days, he was soooo polite and nice to me. Stupid man.
 
MSPAviator said:
Anybody ever actually been ramp checked? I haven't.
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Yup, once, in Racine, WI back in the late 90s.

This nice-looking guy sidles up to my new (to me) '75 Warrior. He's wearing a flannel shirt, has a moustache, and looks like any other weekend hangar bum -- until he says "Nice plane", shows his credentials, and asks to see all the pertinent paperwork.

It was a non-event -- I had everything I needed -- but the guy in the Grumman Tiger that was parked ahead of us wasn't so lucky. That poor sap had to drive his family back to Illinois because he was missing...something.
 
I have posted the details before so I will skip them...
They have tried to ramp me three times - in some 50 years of flying...
Each time they have been told, politely, but in a firm no nonsense tone, that I am busy and I do not have time for that and they need to send me a letter and my attorney will schedule a time and place with them... And I turn my back on him...
Yeah, I'm one of those crusty types...

Now, the reality is if you are a CFI, or a Commercial/ATP certificate holder you have no choice but comply because they can stop your paycheck...
A friend is a pilot for a multinational corporation and they are flying large jets... He was sitting in the left seat on the snow covered ramp at a large airport and the van had just delivered fifty some executives, salesman, and important customers who were shuffling aboard the plane with suitcases and water skis to go to a nice sunny beach for the weekend and a guy walks on board and says, "Hi, I'm from the FAA . . . etc." Dave said it is the only time he has objected to being ramp checked (says he has been checked multiple times - but what they expect to find wrong on 50 million dollar airplanes operated by a Fortune 500 Corporation totally baffles him)
He told the inspector the van was late and he had only ten minutes left in his IFR departure window and could we 'please' do this another time... The inspector agreed and walked away...

OTOH, a putz like me has little they can do to affect my life - I'm not worth their time or trouble...
 
DeeG said:
I had an inspector demand to see my cert and medical once. I was working the desk at the flight school that they were inspecting. I told him no. He demanded again. I told him no, again, and asked what the reason was that he needed to see the documents. He said something to the effect that since he knew I was pilot, I might just go out and fly one of the planes and he needed to make sure I was legal to fly.

Yes, I am a pilot. Yes, I just might go out and fly one of the planes. But while I'm sitting here behind a desk, you have no cause to see them and I will not show them to you. When I walk out to the plane and make like I'm heading to the runway with it, THEN I will show it to you. In the mean time, I am doing nothing that requires a pilots certificate or a medical.

That shut him up. He stood there speechless and then walked out the door.
The four CFI's that were sitting in the office had to pick their jaws up off the ground. lol.

For the next three days, he was soooo polite and nice to me. Stupid man.
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While that's a cute story, he could have just as easily went back to the office and typed a LOI (Letter of Investigation) and sent to you requesting a date and time to present your certificates. If you still refused, then you probably know the next step. Seems to me you got lucky that day with an Inspector that didn't want to force the issue.

The Inspector was in all rights to ask for your certificates during the flight school inspection or any other inspection that is aviation related.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
While that's a cute story, he could have just as easily went back to the office and typed a LOI (Letter of Investigation) and sent to you requesting a date and time to present your certificates. If you still refused, then you probably know the next step. Seems to me you got lucky that day with an Inspector that didn't want to force the issue.

The Inspector was in all rights to ask for your certificates during the flight school inspection or any other inspection that is aviation related.
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I assume, however, that "I'm not flying today so they're at home" would have been an acceptable answer?
 
alaskaflyer said:
*raises hand*

Edit:depends on your definition of local I suppose.

Btw my agency has adopted the FARs in their entirety for the purpose of enforcement within our jurisdiction, which criminalizes any failure to "shall" or "will", or an act that is prohibited. Just thought I'd mention that to blow Ron's mind.
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Doesn't blow my mind at all. Your state legislature is free to do that. The FAA takes your tickets, and the state takes your money and your freedom -- no constitutional conflict at all.
 
While I'm as protective of privacy as most, but I would completely cooperate in a ramp check. I don't recall ever having one, but I have everything I need at all times (given a couple minutes if I need to adjust W&B if it's not exact). Believe it or not, these do serve good purpose.

We had a fella flying without a current physical for quite awhile. Nice guy with a terminal disease that's not good. Several friends asked that he quit flying; he wouldn't listen. There are other folks like this out there, and as sympathetic as I am for what he's going/went through, he shouldn't be flying......PERIOD.

Some folks out there aren't reasonable and aren't doing what it takes to stay current and proficient much less medically in reasonable condition. A ramp check is one manner in which to put a stop to it. It shouldn't be excessive or over done, but I don't mind showing someone I have the basic required documents required to fly. Heck, I have to have a LOT more than that to satisfy myself before I fly. If it would delay something important, I'd so state, but most times I can certainly take a few minutes to show someone courteous that I'm not a problem that needs to be addressed.
Last time I talked to the local FSDO person I know here, he was VERY helpful and trying to do his job to the best of his abilities.

Best,

Dave
 
I don't why a ramp check should be such a big deal. You have AROW, pilot's and medical certificate, and photo ID, what else is there to check?
 
If they have probable cause to stop you. If they just walk up without reason, it is a consensual contact. You can tell them to pound sand.

Ron Levy said:
LEO's do not have Federal authority to do a ramp inspection the same as the FAA, but they do have the authority under 14 CFR 61.3(l)(3) to require you to present your pilot certificate, medical certificate, and photo ID for inspection at any time.
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Dave Siciliano said:
snip...
We had a fella flying without a current physical for quite awhile. Nice guy with a terminal disease that's not good. Several friends asked that he quit flying; he wouldn't listen. There are other folks like this out there, and as sympathetic as I am for what he's going/went through, he shouldn't be flying......PERIOD.

Some folks out there aren't reasonable and aren't doing what it takes to stay current and proficient much less medically in reasonable condition. A ramp check is one manner in which to put a stop to it.
snip...

Dave
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Are you saying that, if a ramp check was conducted, and they revoked his pilot certificate for flying without a medical, that he would stop flying?

If someone doesnt care about a medical or self grounding rules, i'm not sure he would care if he has a certificate or not (providing he owns the plane)
 
Ron Levy said:
Doesn't blow my mind at all. Your state legislature is free to do that. The FAA takes your tickets, and the state takes your money and your freedom -- no constitutional conflict at all.
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Did you realize he's "Park Service"?
 
Old Geek said:
I don't why a ramp check should be such a big deal. You have AROW, pilot's and medical certificate, and photo ID, what else is there to check?
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And if they see a paint chip, place the sticker on the aircraft and require you to have the Airworthiness side of FSDO inspect prior to your using the aircraft again, What then?

Remember the "Q" tip prop incident?

That's why the Operations inspectors of FSDO are not allowed to carry the Stickers any more.
 
Tom-D said:
And if they see a paint chip, place the sticker on the aircraft and require you to have the Airworthiness side of FSDO inspect prior to your using the aircraft again, What then?

Remember the "Q" tip prop incident?

That's why the Operations inspectors of FSDO are not allowed to carry the Stickers any more.
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I heard mumbles about the Q tip thing. A less than clueful inspector tagging all the planes with Q tip props. How did it end?
 
fnpdoc said:
If they have probable cause to stop you. If they just walk up without reason, it is a consensual contact. You can tell them to pound sand.
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I don't see any mention of consent or probable cause in 14 CFR 61.3(l)(3):

(l) Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:

(1) The Administrator;

(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;

(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or

(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.

​
 
bigblockz8 said:
So I was wondering if any LEO's have ever ramped checked anyone on here.

I started driving school yesterday (costs more than ground school! thats a rant thread though) and the instructor is a police commander. He's been a LEO for 27yrs and was on patrol,vice,UC, basically he has an illustrious career. He and I were talking and he used to instruct at an academy and he has never heard that local,state,or federal could ramp check pilots. Makes me wonder how many agencies know of this.

Also how many pilots know about this?
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Yes, I know they have no such authority to execute a 'ramp check'. OTOH, being a pilot has gotten me out of a ticket. "Why you driving so fast?" "Sorry officer, I just spent the last 5 hrs doing 180 kts in my plane and it just didn't seem all that fast and my speedometer is broke." "Show me your pilot's license." I handed it over, he laughed and handed it back after I also quickly produced a picture of me and my dad in my plane and told me to slow down.
 
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