Police Ramp Checks

fnpdoc said:
If they have probable cause to stop you. If they just walk up without reason, it is a consensual contact. You can tell them to pound sand.
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I suggest re-reading 14 CFR 61.3. They do not need any reason at all to demand to see your FAA certificates and photo ID. They don't even need the reasonable suspicion required for a Terry stop, and they only need probable cause to search you and/or your plane. Telling them to "pound sand" because they lack "probable cause" is likely to land you in handcuffs and your FAA tickets in the Regional Counsel's desk drawer.
 
Tom-D said:
And if they see a paint chip, place the sticker on the aircraft and require you to have the Airworthiness side of FSDO inspect prior to your using the aircraft again, What then?

Remember the "Q" tip prop incident?

That's why the Operations inspectors of FSDO are not allowed to carry the Stickers any more.
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First, it's a tag, not a sticker. Second, they are still allowed to carry and hang Aircraft Condition Notices. The difference now is they are supposed to obtain at least a telephone consult with an Airworthiness Inspector before they do it.
 
Old Geek said:
I heard mumbles about the Q tip thing. A less than clueful inspector tagging all the planes with Q tip props. How did it end?
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It was only one plane, and it was because the Inspector thought the tips were damaged in a gear-up pass. It ended with the pilot recouping his legal costs under the Equal Access to Justice Act, and a change to the Inspector's Handbook telling Ops Inspectors not to hang ACN's without consulting an Airworthiness Inspector first.
 
Ron Levy said:
First, it's a tag, not a sticker. Second, they are still allowed to carry and hang Aircraft Condition Notices. The difference now is they are supposed to obtain at least a telephone consult with an Airworthiness Inspector before they do it.
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In reality they operate in pairs, 1 from each side of the house.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the NPS can make it a crime to litter in their parks, then they can probably make it a crime to violate the FAR's in their parks.
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For you and me, yes, but not with the native american, then you must get a couple other agencies involved.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Once again, not true.
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Every time they are in my hangar there are two of them.

1 from each side of the FSDO.

Call my PMI and ask. If you really are from the FAA you should know his number, or be able to get it easy.
 
We just had a guy who works with the FBI guys show the documents that the feds and local police are being handed about checking out planes and pilots during the G8 summit.

Everything they're being told is reasonable, including what valid certs and medicals look like. I forgot that all paper pilot certificates are now invalid.

One thing he said was that you are required to physically hand over your certificate so the cop can copy it, but you say, "I am presenting my certificate but I am not surrendering my certificate." To which I say the cop can say "I never heard such a thing."

I'd keep my smart phone on record.
 
Tom-D said:
In reality they operate in pairs, 1 from each side of the house.
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Sometimes yes, sometimes no -- there's no requirement either way. But if they are working as a pair, the Airworthiness Inspector will make the decisions on the ACN.
 
Tom-D said:
Every time they are in my hangar there are two of them.

1 from each side of the FSDO.

Call my PMI and ask. If you really are from the FAA you should know his number, or be able to get it easy.
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Well, since you're running a maintenance shop, there's always going to be an Airworthiness Inspector involved in any check of your operation. There are any number of reasons why there's always an Ops type along, too, starting with the Ops person being there to do ramp checks on pilots flying, but there's no requirement for an Ops Inspector to be along on a check of maintenance facilities, and I've seen plenty of cases where only one inspector (Ops or Airworthiness, as appropriate) was checking on things at airports.
 
mikea said:
One thing he said was that you are required to physically hand over your certificate
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That's the law.

so the cop can copy it,
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Never heard of that, but I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be allowed to do it.
but you say, "I am presenting my certificate but I am not surrendering my certificate."
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You can say that if you want, but it's not necessary. There's about three full pages of instructions on what an FAA Inspector has to do to accept a surrender of an airman certificate, including you signing a letter volunteering to surrender it, without which the Inspector is required to hand it back. And nobody but the FAA is authorized to accept surrender of an airman certificate.

To which I say the cop can say "I never heard such a thing."
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Probably so.

I'd keep my smart phone on record.
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Just make sure the party with whom you are speaking agrees to the recording at the beginning of the recording. In many (if not most) states permission from all parties to the discussion is required and it's a criminal offense if you record without it.
 
Ron Levy said:
First, it's a tag, not a sticker. Second, they are still allowed to carry and hang Aircraft Condition Notices. The difference now is they are supposed to obtain at least a telephone consult with an Airworthiness Inspector before they do it.
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I don't know about the ones the FAA uses, but the ones the Marshals use are the most tenacious stickers I have ever seen. I've watched em peel paint. That may be the sticker he's referring to seeing.
 
Tom-D said:
In reality they operate in pairs, 1 from each side of the house.
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I've seen it both ways. When I worked at LGB the FSDO was right next door to us, that was nice. We all chat around the taco wagon at break time. Toms was next door as was DEA lol, and my girl with the R22.;)
 
Henning said:
I don't know about the ones the FAA uses, but the ones the Marshals use are the most tenacious stickers I have ever seen. I've watched em peel paint. That may be the sticker he's referring to seeing.
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He's talking about Aircraft Condition Notices issued by FAA Inspectors, which are multi-part paper forms, not "stickers." I have no idea what sticker a US Marshal uses on airplanes or what purpose it might have -- evidence tape, perhaps, to secure a crime scene? :dunno: That is certainly not the "sticker" about which Tom is writing in the context of ramp inspections conducted by FAA Inspectors, and the only agency which performs "ramp inspections" as defined by FAA Order 8900.1 is the FAA.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the NPS can make it a crime to litter in their parks, then they can probably make it a crime to violate the FAR's in their parks.
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Article I, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution hasn't been operational for decades, so the above is now sadly true.

Otherwise I'd point out that the NPS can only draft regulations within the confines of the authority granted them by congress, so the probability in the "can probably make it a crime" portion can approach zero.
 
Ron Levy said:
He's talking about Aircraft Condition Notices issued by FAA Inspectors, which are multi-part paper forms, not "stickers." I have no idea what sticker a US Marshal uses on airplanes or what purpose it might have -- evidence tape, perhaps, to secure a crime scene? :dunno: That is certainly not the "sticker" about which Tom is writing in the context of ramp inspections conducted by FAA Inspectors, and the only agency which performs "ramp inspections" as defined by FAA Order 8900.1 is the FAA.
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You have to allow for the possibility he mistakes them. The Marshals stickers are the ones that say do not touch under penalty of law, and they mean it lol; they are also obvious and prevalent. These are typically in custody of the USMS pending a court proceeding. Depending on the custodial service they can contract locally, they may choose a known 3rd party provider to remove it to their facility.
 
Tom-D said:
Did you realize he's "Park Service"?
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Park Service are just as much LEO's as any other police agency. They have arrest powers, and carry a badge and guns.
 
Henning said:
You have to allow for the possibility he mistakes them. The Marshals stickers are the ones that say do not touch under penalty of law, and they mean it lol; they are also obvious and prevalent. These are typically in custody of the USMS pending a court proceeding. Depending on the custodial service they can contract locally, they may choose a known 3rd party provider to remove it to their facility.
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Please go back and read the first post in which he referred to those "stickers." You'll see it's not about those USMS stickers.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Article I, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution hasn't been operational for decades, so the above is now sadly true.

Otherwise I'd point out that the NPS can only draft regulations within the confines of the authority granted them by congress, so the probability in the "can probably make it a crime" portion can approach zero.
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Why do you think that the regulation "drafted" is not within those confines?

I misspoke earlier, our regulations in part 2 of 36 CFR adopt the FARs insomuch as they deal with the "use of aircraft." I did say "within our jurisdiction" which is a combination of subject-matter and geographic jurisdiction. Thus the activity must take place within the bounds - both geographically and legally - of what Congress charged the NPS to preserve and protect which includes law and order generally.

The regulation is rarely used and is mostly for the purpose of allowing for investigation of certain circumstances more than enforcement IMO, but it is clear that tool exists if need be.

(d) The use of aircraft shall be in accordance with regulations of the Federal Aviation Administration. Such regulations are adopted as a part of these regulations.
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The NPS has adopted a number of other laws for the purpose of enforcement within our jurisdiction, including USCG regulations, and non-conflicting state traffic offenses, and hunting and fishing regulations.

Anyway I mostly mention it as an item of interest. Park rangers or police officers cannot substitute themselves as FAA inspectors even if they can cloak themselves in aviation regulations...they should be contacting pilots to satisfy the particular purpose for which they are empowered, not for purposes for which the FAA exists.
 
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All of which says "if another regulating agency thinks this is how you should behave, we expect the same behavior".

NJ Marine law does something similar, I believe, just basically refers to the CG regs and adds any local wrinkles. The NJ marine police would bust folks in their waterways for the same things we'd enforce in waterways we controlled (there were some waterways outside the USCG jurisdiction when I was in it).
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, since you're running a maintenance shop, there's always going to be an Airworthiness Inspector involved in any check of your operation. There are any number of reasons why there's always an Ops type along, too, starting with the Ops person being there to do ramp checks on pilots flying, but there's no requirement for an Ops Inspector to be along on a check of maintenance facilities, and I've seen plenty of cases where only one inspector (Ops or Airworthiness, as appropriate) was checking on things at airports.
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You are right there is no written requirement for the FAA ASI's to travel in pairs, but that is what they do. You will never see just 1 inspector doing ramp checks, They come to an airport for different reasons, and as a side they do ramp inspections.
I do business with FSDO on a regular bases, and in 30 years I have never seen any ASI working alone, There is either a Avionics type, or an ops type accompanying the airworthiness inspector.

and to add I have never seen a FSDO employee even do a EXP certification alone, DAR,DER, Yes, FSDO employee's NO.
 
Henning said:
I've seen it both ways. When I worked at LGB the FSDO was right next door to us, that was nice. We all chat around the taco wagon at break time. Toms was next door as was DEA lol, and my girl with the R22.;)
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Right next door to the FSDO? maybe. In the Field no.
 
Ron Levy said:
Please go back and read the first post in which he referred to those "stickers." You'll see it's not about those USMS stickers.
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"STICKERS" was my term, a common nomer folks in the industry have used for a long time, It's just the legal begal in Ron to pick the nit.
 
Tom-D said:
You are right there is no written requirement for the FAA ASI's to travel in pairs, but that is what they do. You will never see just 1 inspector doing ramp checks, They come to an airport for different reasons, and as a side they do ramp inspections.
I do business with FSDO on a regular bases, and in 30 years I have never seen any ASI working alone, There is either a Avionics type, or an ops type accompanying the airworthiness inspector.

and to add I have never seen a FSDO employee even do a EXP certification alone, DAR,DER, Yes, FSDO employee's NO.
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Unreal............
 
Tom-D said:
You are right there is no written requirement for the FAA ASI's to travel in pairs, but that is what they do.
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Sometimes, but not always.
You will never see just 1 inspector doing ramp checks,
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I do -- routinely, and not just in my home District.
I do business with FSDO on a regular bases, and in 30 years I have never seen any ASI working alone, There is either a Avionics type, or an ops type accompanying the airworthiness inspector.
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I will not speculate on why they only travel in pairs around you.
 
Henning said:
You have to allow for the possibility he mistakes them. The Marshals stickers are the ones that say do not touch under penalty of law, and they mean it lol; they are also obvious and prevalent. These are typically in custody of the USMS pending a court proceeding. Depending on the custodial service they can contract locally, they may choose a known 3rd party provider to remove it to their facility.
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MY PMI at FSDO is a LEO for the federal government, he has the badge, and gun, and he will place a big red sticker over the door seam of your aircraft when he has cause.

But I have never seen him place a "TAG" on any aircraft (he may have, I wouldn't know) he will usually call the owner and have a talk first.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not unless he wants to do something official. No requirement to identify himself if he only wants to observe.
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There is if he wants to get thru the door.
 
Tom-D said:
MY PMI at FSDO is a LEO for the federal government, he has the badge, and gun, and he will place a big red sticker over the door seam of your aircraft when he has cause.

But I have never seen him place a "TAG" on any aircraft (he may have, I wouldn't know) he will usually call the owner and have a talk first.
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Tom, c'mon now. Your "stories" are getting wilder and wilder.

While it's true an FAA ASI (series 1825) carries a badge ( as part of his 110A) he is not considered an LEO, and he is not allowed to carry a firearm.

Quit while you're ahead.
 
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