Police Ramp Checks

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bigblockz8

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So I was wondering if any LEO's have ever ramped checked anyone on here.

I started driving school yesterday (costs more than ground school! thats a rant thread though) and the instructor is a police commander. He's been a LEO for 27yrs and was on patrol,vice,UC, basically he has an illustrious career. He and I were talking and he used to instruct at an academy and he has never heard that local,state,or federal could ramp check pilots. Makes me wonder how many agencies know of this.

Also how many pilots know about this?
 
They can't 'ramp check' people. That term refers to an FAA inspection. What the the Federal Aviation Regs say is that if a LEO asks to see your pilot credentials you must show them to him.

What that LEO can do in terms of FAA enforcement is, generally, zip. But he can enforce whatever laws he's sworn to uphold, and thus might be worried about you smuggling dope, or flying drunk, or kidnapping, etc... So he may have reason to ask for your airman credentials or inspect your aircraft (with a warrant).
 
LEO's do not have Federal authority to do a ramp inspection the same as the FAA, but they do have the authority under 14 CFR 61.3(l)(3) to require you to present your pilot certificate, medical certificate, and photo ID for inspection at any time.
 
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LEOs will sometimes act at the request of Homeland security and checkout an aircraft at a small GA airport. Just ask Ted. Its kind of a joke as they really often have no idea what they are looking at in an aircraft.
 
Ron Levy said:
LEO's do not have Federal authority to do a ramp inspection the same as the FAA, but they do have the authority under 14 CFR 61.3(l)(3) to require you to present your pilot certificate, medical certificate, and photo ID for inspection at any time.
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However, any refusal to present your pilot certificate, medical certificate and photo ID could only be punished by an enforcement action.
 
Steve Foley said:
However, any refusal to present your pilot certificate, medical certificate and photo ID could only be punished by an enforcement action.
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Yes, and that means the LEO, after doing whatever he can to punish you under his statutory authority, would have to present the case to a FSDO for FAA action.
 
bigblockz8 said:
So I was wondering if any LEO's have ever ramped checked anyone on here.

I started driving school yesterday (costs more than ground school! thats a rant thread though) and the instructor is a police commander. He's been a LEO for 27yrs and was on patrol,vice,UC, basically he has an illustrious career. He and I were talking and he used to instruct at an academy and he has never heard that local,state,or federal could ramp check pilots. Makes me wonder how many agencies know of this.

Also how many pilots know about this?
Click to expand...

The last time I called the county sheriff because of some suspicious people wondering around the airport, it took 45 minutes for the deputies to find the place.
 
Old Geek said:
The last time I called the county sheriff because of some suspicious people wondering around the airport, it took 45 minutes for the deputies to find the place.
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I witnessed an aircraft accident a few years back. When the cops arrived, they couldn't get onto the airport grounds...the city hadn't issued them access cards for the gate.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Maybe King Schools can create a video on how to handle this? They have experience with being "ramp checked" by law enforcement. :rofl:
 
TMetzinger said:
They can't 'ramp check' people. That term refers to an FAA inspection. What the the Federal Aviation Regs say is that if a LEO asks to see your pilot credentials you must show them to him.

What that LEO can do in terms of FAA enforcement is, generally, zip. But he can enforce whatever laws he's sworn to uphold, and thus might be worried about you smuggling dope, or flying drunk, or kidnapping, etc... So he may have reason to ask for your airman credentials or inspect your aircraft (with a warrant).
Click to expand...

I couldn't remember the exact name for what they (law enforcement) could do but I just grouped it together with the generic document raping commonly known as a "ramp check." As I am reading it appears that the FAA can do a more intensive check because it would be considered "administrative" versus the police's general criminal approach.
 
TMetzinger said:
Yes, and that means the LEO, after doing whatever he can to punish you under his statutory authority, would have to present the case to a FSDO for FAA action.
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How many local LEOs do you think know what a FSDO is?
 
AdamZ said:
How many local LEOs do you think know what a FSDO is?
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Not many. However, I'll bet they all know what "refusal to comply" (or whatever they call it in your state) is, and while the result of that does not involve the FAA (at least, not until you have to fill out your next 8500-8), it usually involves handcuffs and may involve a night in the can with Bubba.:hairraise:
 
TMetzinger said:
Yes, and that means the LEO, after doing whatever he can to punish you under his statutory authority, would have to present the case to a FSDO for FAA action.
Click to expand...

My point is that under 14 CFR 61.3(l)(3), a LEO needs no reason to ask for your information, and you can be punished for refusing.

If the officer has no articulable suspicion of criminal activity, nothing more should happen.
 
Old Geek said:
The last time I called the county sheriff because of some suspicious people wondering around the airport, it took 45 minutes for the deputies to find the place.
Click to expand...


I wonder what they were 'wondering' about? The meaning of life? Why abbreviation is such a long word? What is the velocity of an unladen swallow?

I hope the cops put an end to it though. We can't have people contemplating things so close to an airport!
 
TMetzinger said:
They can't 'ramp check' people. That term refers to an FAA inspection. What the the Federal Aviation Regs say is that if a LEO asks to see your pilot credentials you must show them to him.

What that LEO can do in terms of FAA enforcement is, generally, zip. But he can enforce whatever laws he's sworn to uphold, and thus might be worried about you smuggling dope, or flying drunk, or kidnapping, etc... So he may have reason to ask for your airman credentials or inspect your aircraft (with a warrant probable cause that may or may not be required to be reviewed by a judicial oficer in advance of the search, depending on the jurisdiction).
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Corrected for accuracy :)
 
I always wondered if I ever get pulled over for speeding, what my response to the sarcastic patrolman demand: "You were flying! Let me see your pilot's license." would be.

*grin*

--Carlos V.
 
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One of the unanswered questions I've heard is whether you are required to present your pilot documents to an FAA inspactor who approaches you in the grocery store and demands them (unless, say, you just landed your aircraft in the grocery store parking lot). The plain reading of the reg itself suggests you are, but a reading of FAA Order 8900.1 (the Inspector's "bible") suggests they are not allowed to make that request in those circumstances.
 
Ron Levy said:
One of the unanswered questions I've heard is whether you are required to present your pilot documents to an FAA inspactor who approaches you in the grocery store and demands them (unless, say, you just landed your aircraft in the grocery store parking lot). The plain reading of the reg itself suggests you are, but a reading of FAA Order 8900.1 (the Inspector's "bible") suggests they are not allowed to make that request in those circumstances.
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Why would an Inspector even consider doing something like that? (randomly ask someone in a grocery store)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Why would an Inspector even consider doing something like that? (randomly ask someone in a grocery store)
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Nobody ever said one actually would (and as I said, I can't imagine one doing that), just that the question about the regulation was asked. This is the internet, remember?:D
 
Ron Levy said:
Nobody ever said one actually would (and as I said, I can't imagine one doing that), just that the question about the regulation was asked. This is the internet, remember?:D
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OK, thought I missed something about asparagus or broccoli requirements during a ramp check?:dunno:
 
Never underestimate the ability of a LEO to make-up an aviation infraction.
In the early 1970's I was present at I66 when an Ohio trooper was bound
and determined to write a tkt for (planned & briefed) formation flying. He was
100.0% CERTAIN, but incorrect.

IIRC, ~6 of us at the FBO were scouring the FARs to find the relevant
section. Thankfully, an OSP Skyhawk happened to visit. Trooper Hanks set
Trooper Fife straight.
 
Unless you want to get tazed and arrested, in San Diego, if a cop asks, you better comply. Heck, they taze and arrest schoolchildren who ignore direct orders. Just did that a few weeks ago to a fourteen year old.

John
 
Ron Levy said:
One of the unanswered questions I've heard is whether you are required to present your pilot documents to an FAA inspactor who approaches you in the grocery store and demands them (unless, say, you just landed your aircraft in the grocery store parking lot). The plain reading of the reg itself suggests you are, but a reading of FAA Order 8900.1 (the Inspector's "bible") suggests they are not allowed to make that request in those circumstances.
Click to expand...

What if you AND an FAA inspector are abducted by aliens...while waiting to be probed could the inspector ask you for you pilot license?

Oh yeah, and are you required to shop at the grocery store with your license on your person? ...and by on your person I mean 'readily available'.
 
Does the same protocol apply to LEOs as it does to the FAA? When they ask to "see" your certificate, do you "show" it to them or surrender it? (Assuming they know the difference.)
 
upstateny said:
Does the same protocol apply to LEOs as it does to the FAA? When they ask to "see" your certificate, do you "show" it to them or surrender it? (Assuming they know the difference.)
Click to expand...

OWT. Once again, this is a OWT.

You cannot "surrender" your certificate on a ramp inspection with the FAA. If you so desire to do so, there is a procedure in 8900.1 detailing how to do it.

The Inspector cannot take your certificate away from you if you hand it to him, he must return it after examining it.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
You cannot "surrender" your certificate on a ramp inspection with the FAA. If you so desire to do so, there is a procedure in 8900.1 detailing how to do it.

The Inspector cannot take your certificate away from you if you hand it to him, he must return it after examining it.
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He wasn't talking about the FAA folks, he was talking about the local LEOs thinking that they can ground you by confiscating your certificate.

Since the FAA knows the difference between inspection and surrendering, if a LEO confiscates my cert, I would just spend the $2 for a new piece of plastic (and a phone call to get a FAX copy if I had to fly right away).

--Carlos V.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
OWT. Once again, this is a OWT.

You cannot "surrender" your certificate on a ramp inspection with the FAA. If you so desire to do so, there is a procedure in 8900.1 detailing how to do it.

The Inspector cannot take your certificate away from you if you hand it to him, he must return it after examining it.
Click to expand...

Please forgive my ignorance, but not knowing what OWT means and given that 8900.1 references the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS) which, they state, is nearly 8000 pages long, I'm not finding your response very helpful. Also, given that I was asking about LEOs, this whole point is moot.
 
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Unbeliever said:
I always wondered if I ever get pulled over for speeding, what my response to the sarcastic patrolman demand: "You were flying! Let me see your pilot's license." would be.

*grin*

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...
Give it to him...if he gets on your case for being a smartass, explain to him that regulations require you to provide it to any LEO who asks for it.
 
upstateny said:
Please forgive my ignorance, but not knowing what OWT means and given that 8900.1 references the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS) which, they state, is nearly 8000 pages long, I'm not finding your response very helpful. Also, given that I was asking about LEOs, this whole point is moot.
Click to expand...

My apologies as I'm on a iPhone or I would have posted the links.

The OWT is alive and well regarding surrender of certificates.

As far as LEO's taking a certificate? Never had any first hand experience, but I would assume if a LEO wanted to confiscate your certificate he could.

FAA is Administrative Law, LEO's are under Civil Law.

Hope that helps.
 
Funny story: I passed my PP checkride in 2005 at Rowan County (NC) airport (KRUQ). I had just walked out of the FBO, temporary certificate in hand and feces-eating grin on my face, and preflighted the plane (an OMF Symphony) to return to my home airport.

Just as I sat in the plane to give my wife a call with the good news and an ETA on arriving home before start-up, a Rowan County Sheriff pulls through the gate, puts on the lights on his unmarked car, and pulls right up to the plane. He steps out, wearing a flight suit, pistol on his hip, and no smile on his face. He walks up to the plane, and says "This is a ramp check." I hung up with my wife, the feces-eating grin disappearing from my face, and said "What?"

The sherriff said "Just kidding. I've never seen this kind of plane before. What is it?" I told him it was a Symphony, 160HP Lycoming, and flies like a Skyhawk, but it has a stick instead of a yoke. I also told him that I just passed my checkride, and he said "I heard." Apparently, he was one of Rowan County Sherriff's helicopter pilots, and they base their birds at that airport. He congratulated me, we had a chuckle, and sent me on my way.

My first flight home as a private pilot was the sweetest flight I have ever been on. Well, at least until my first solo flight in IMC.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
As far as LEO's taking a certificate? Never had any first hand experience, but I would assume if a LEO wanted to confiscate your certificate he could.
Click to expand...

And as I said above, that means nothing to the FAA other than qualifying as a "lost/stolen certificate" when you replace it.

--Carlos V.
 
upstateny said:
Please forgive my ignorance, but not knowing what OWT means and given that 8900.1 references the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS) which, they state, is nearly 8000 pages long, I'm not finding your response very helpful. Also, given that I was asking about LEOs, this whole point is moot.
Click to expand...
There is no legal authority for a local/state LEO to take your FAA certificates from you as described. I suppose that if it was part of some criminal investigation, your certificates could be seized as evidence, but that's not what we're talking about. If the LEO were to seize them without legal authority, you would have grounds for civil and possibly criminal action against the LEO and his/her department -- just as you would if s/he illegally seized anything else from you. But if this ever happens, remember that the LEO has handcuffs and a gun, so your worst option would be to refuse to comply, and your best option would be to document the seizure and then call an attorney to handle the ensuing legal battle. That said, like R&W, I've never heard of this happening.

As for the FAA, here's the relevant section of 8900.1:
5-318VOLUNTARY SURRENDER OF CERTIFICATE OR RATING. Application for voluntary surrender, or “downgrading,” of a pilot certificate or rating may be accepted by an ASI only in accordance with § 61.27. No certificate or rating shall be accepted for surrender or downgrading unless the applicant submits a request in writing and fully understands that he or she has no reinstatement rights.

A.Conditions for Surrender. There are four basic conditions for the surrender of an airman certificate or rating:

1)Voluntary surrender unrelated to an enforcement case;

2)Voluntary surrender in anticipation of FAA certificate action;

3)Voluntary, temporary deposit of an airman’s certificate to the custody of the FSDO when an airman’s competency has been questioned by the FAA and the enforcement action or reexamination is justifiably delayed; and

4)Surrender at Regional Counsel’s request.

B.Reason for Surrender. No airman certificate may be accepted by an FAA ASI unless the reason for surrender is identified. Surrender of that certificate must be in accordance with procedures described in this handbook. Under no circumstance shall a pilot certificate be accepted for voluntary surrender unless the ASI immediately contacts the Regional Counsel and explains the facts and circumstances concerning the surrender. The airman’s certificate may be accepted only with the concurrence of, and in accordance with, directions of the Regional Counsel. Legal enforcement cases involving the surrender of an airman certificate shall be forwarded to the regional office for processing no later than five days after the date of certificate surrender.

1)If no enforcement action is pending or being contemplated under § 61.27, an airman may, for personal reasons, voluntarily surrender the certificate to the FAA for the purpose of cancellation of the certificate, reissuance of the certificate at a lower grade, or reissuance of the certificate with specific ratings deleted.

a)An airman may have many reasons for voluntarily surrendering or exchanging a certificate. One reason could be that the FAA has questioned the pilot’s competency, and the airman is to be reexamined under 49 U.S.C. In this instance, the airman may elect to surrender the certificate or rating, in writing, in lieu of submitting to reexamination (Figure 5-22).

b)When an airman elects to surrender the certificate as described above, the ASI may accept the certificate, along with a letter of surrender signed by the airman. The certificate, a copy of the temporary airman certificate, the application for the issuance of a modified certificate (FAA Form 8710-1), and the letter of surrender should be forwarded to AFS-760. A copy of the complete file should be forwarded to the regional operations branch for review.

c)The surrender letter must clearly spell out the incident or event and the airman’s involvement. The letter should state that the airman has been apprised of his/her legal rights and clearly state the voluntary nature of the surrender in view of these rights. The letter shall not be conditional and must be patterned after Figure 5-23.

2)An airman may surrender a pilot certificate to the FAA at any stage of an investigation (see the current edition of FAA Order 2150.3). Great care must be exercised when accepting an airman certificate for surrender when enforcement action is pending.

a)The eventual action of the FAA could possibly be other than certificate action. In addition, the Regional Counsel’s office may be unable to provide priority handling of such cases (the failure to issue promptly an Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation may impose an undue sanction on the airman).

b)Not only must the surrender be voluntary, it must also be documented as such. It must be absolutely clear that no FAA coercion was used. For example, if an FAA ASI, during an investigation, told an airman that the airman had violated a regulation, then accepted the certificate for surrender, the action would not appear voluntary. In a legal enforcement case, no FAA ASI has either the authority or responsibility to make such a statement; this is a function of the Regional Counsel.

c)The airman shall be told that any statement the airman makes can and may be used against the airman in legal proceedings and that the airman need not make any statement without being represented by legal counsel.

d)The airman shall be apprised of FAA legal enforcement procedures as described in 14 CFR part 13, §§ 13.15 and 13.19.

3)An airman may temporarily deposit an airman certificate voluntarily in the custody of a FSDO (for a maximum of 30 days at a time) while the airman is preparing for a reexamination of competence. The airman must be informed, in the presence of a third person, that the airman is not required to deposit the airman certificate with the FSDO or to sign any statement. This procedure can also be used for an airman convalescing from an accident or an illness, or for a person having the aircraft repaired that is intended to be used for the reexamination flight check.

a)Temporary deposit shall never be used to resolve a violation of the regulations (i.e., reexamination is not used as a punishment or as a substitute for enforcement action). A temporary airman certificate with the original certificate number affixed may be issued to the airman to allow solo practice to prepare for reexamination or to continue flying with limitations. In this case “passenger carrying prohibited” or other appropriate limitations should be included (see Figure 5-24). For example, if instrument competency is questioned, the temporary airman certificate should omit the instrument rating. The same procedure could be used with any rating questioned. In no case should a student pilot certificate be issued to the holder of another student (or other) pilot certificate. The temporary airman certificate issued and the letter of temporary deposit to the FSDO (Figures 5-25 and 5-26) must have the same expiration date. The ASI may issue a new temporary airman certificate for an additional period of 30 days, provided the airman agrees to such action and submits a new letter of temporary deposit to the FSDO with the appropriate expiration date as described above.

b)If at the end of the expiration date, the airman has not passed the reexamination test, fails to appear, or has not made other acceptable arrangements, immediate legal enforcement action (emergency suspension) shall be taken to suspend the permanent airman certificate or rating in question until the airman demonstrates competency to hold that certificate.

4)Surrender at the request of Regional Counsel is an action taken as the result of an Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation issued by Regional Counsel. From time to time, the Regional Counsel requests the FSDO to pick up a certificate when an airman fails to surrender the certificate as a result of a Regional Counsel Order. The following actions should be taken by the ASIs:

a)The specific Regional Counsel instructions should be followed. In most cases, it is requested that an ASI contact the airman to be sure the airman understands that the order demands the surrender of the certificate.

b)The ASI shall review the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation so that the ASI is familiar with the allegations. The ASI should then arrange a meeting with the airman. The ASI should take to the meeting a copy of the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation, a Loss of Certificate Affidavit (Figure 5-27), and a franked envelope addressed to Regional Counsel.

c)When meeting the airman, the ASI should present official identification and inquire if the airman has received the Order of Suspension or Order of Revocation. If the airman has not received a copy, present the airman with a copy. The ASI should point out the action taken in the order and offer to accept the certificate for surrender to the FAA. The ASI shall not enter into a discussion as to the authenticity of the facts, evidence, or the propriety of the sanction. The ASI should advise the airman that failure to surrender the certificate within the period of time specified in the order would make the airman subject to additional action.

d)If the airman states that the certificate is lost, the ASI should give the airman the affidavit form and the franked envelope addressed to the Regional Counsel. The ASI should instruct the airman to complete the affidavit and forward it in lieu of the lost certificate.

e)If the airman does not wish to surrender the certificate to the ASI, the ASI should give the airman the franked envelope addressed to the Regional Counsel so the airman can forward the certificate to the proper office.

f)If at any time the ASI has any reason to believe that a hostile or dangerous confrontation is likely, the matter shall be discussed with the Regional Counsel before taking the action. When a potentially hazardous confrontation is expected, the ASI can be accompanied to the meeting with the airman by a U.S. Marshal.

C.Issuing a Certificate or Rating to an Airman Who is under an Order of Revocation.

1)An ASI planning to issue a certificate or rating to an airman who is under an Order of Revocation should arrange a meeting with the airman and review FAA Order 2150.3, paragraph 1307, and §§ 61.13 and 61.19(e). At this meeting, the ASI will examine the Order of Revocation and become familiar with its contents to ensure that an application from the airman is not accepted prior to the expiration of the periods specified in the previously-mentioned sections or as authorized in the Order of Revocation. If found ineligible, the ASI will advise the airman of the reasons.

2) An ASI who receives an application for an airman certificate from an airman whose certificate has been revoked and who is found ineligible, will disapprove the application and issue an FAA Form 8060-5, Notice of Disapproval of Application, indicating the reasons for disapproval and using verbiage such as “Applicant disapproved because. . . ”

D.Voluntary Certificate Downgrade.

1)When a person elects to voluntarily downgrade his or her pilot certificate to a lower certification level, to avoid submitting to a § 44709 re-examination practical test, the ASI should consider if the person’s desire involves competency and proficiency in the common piloting tasks. For example, if the pilot is required to submit to a § 44709 re-examination practical test because of landing competency and proficiency, then he or she must accomplish that task at all levels of pilot certification. It is a requirement for the pilot to submit to a § 44709 re-examination practical test and the ASI must advise him or her of this. However, the testing standard is at the downgraded level of pilot certification that the person has agreed to.

2)When a pilot elects to voluntary downgrade his or her pilot certificate, the pilot must fill out FAA Form 8710-1. Ensure that the box for reissuance of the certificate has been checked. The ASI may accept the certificate, along with a letter of voluntary downgrade signed by the airman. The ASI will forward the pilot certificate, a copy of the temporary airman certificate, the application (FAA Form 8710-1) for issuance of the downgraded pilot certificate, and the letter of voluntary downgrade to AFS-760. The ASI should forward a copy of the complete file to the regional operations branch for review.

3)After examining and verifying the documentation, the ASI issues FAA Form 8060-4, reflecting the appropriate change. The ASI fills out the Inspector’s Report section on FAA Form 8710-1 and forwards the application, the superseded certificate, and a copy of the temporary certificate to the Airmen Certification Branch, AFS‑760.
Click to expand...
As you can see, there's a lot to it, and it cannot happen just by handing your certificate to an Inspector.
 
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Unbeliever said:
He wasn't talking about the FAA folks, he was talking about the local LEOs thinking that they can ground you by confiscating your certificate.

Since the FAA knows the difference between inspection and surrendering, if a LEO confiscates my cert, I would just spend the $2 for a new piece of plastic (and a phone call to get a FAX copy if I had to fly right away).

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

And a fairly nice, polite meeting between my attorney and the LEO's CO...:D
 
nddons said:
Funny story: I passed my PP checkride in 2005 at Rowan County (NC) airport (KRUQ). I had just walked out of the FBO, temporary certificate in hand and feces-eating grin on my face, and preflighted the plane (an OMF Symphony) to return to my home airport.

Just as I sat in the plane to give my wife a call with the good news and an ETA on arriving home before start-up, a Rowan County Sheriff pulls through the gate, puts on the lights on his unmarked car, and pulls right up to the plane. He steps out, wearing a flight suit, pistol on his hip, and no smile on his face. He walks up to the plane, and says "This is a ramp check." I hung up with my wife, the feces-eating grin disappearing from my face, and said "What?"

The sherriff said "Just kidding. I've never seen this kind of plane before. What is it?" I told him it was a Symphony, 160HP Lycoming, and flies like a Skyhawk, but it has a stick instead of a yoke. I also told him that I just passed my checkride, and he said "I heard." Apparently, he was one of Rowan County Sherriff's helicopter pilots, and they base their birds at that airport. He congratulated me, we had a chuckle, and sent me on my way.

My first flight home as a private pilot was the sweetest flight I have ever been on. Well, at least until my first solo flight in IMC.
Click to expand...

Off the topic of this thread, but...

How was the Symphony to fly? I mean, other than "like a Skyhawk". I sat in one at Sun-n-Fun a few years ago and thought it looked like a good plane to consider.
 
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