Pilot Zhuang Qu learns the importance of that big watch he's wearing

3393RP

3393RP

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3393RP
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http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/12/fuel-starvation-piper-pa-28-161-warrior.html?m=0
 
Well switching tanks every 30 minutes blindly is dumb... but never switching it?
 
30 minutes first switch, hourly thereafter; that was generally the procedure I used in all my Cherokees.

Having owned a few of them I can't imagine ignoring the obvious imbalance in the roll axis approaching 140 lbs more weight in one wing than the other. :dunno:
 
GRG55 said:
Having owned a few of them I can't imagine ignoring the obvious imbalance in the roll axis approaching 140 lbs more weight in one wing than the other. :dunno:
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I wondered about that too. :D
 
GRG55 said:
Having owned a few of them I can't imagine ignoring the obvious imbalance in the roll axis approaching 140 lbs more weight in one wing than the other. :dunno:
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Yes--fuel thieves once almost drained one of my Cherokee 140 tanks, leaving the other nearly full. The imbalance is crazy obvious.

Tim
 
There seems to be lots of people doing stupid things in airplanes these days. Waiting to see what my 2021 insurance rate will be.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
You clearly did not visit the linked website. Not only is the pilot named but you can see a picture of him looking very distressed while talking to folks at the accident scene.
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I would be distressed too if I was about to get recalled to China and sent to the Foxconn plant.
 
ja_user said:
Well switching tanks every 30 minutes blindly is dumb...
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I guess I'm dumb then. I use the minute hand technique. The minute hand on my watch points to the tank I'm pulling from. Much easier than writing it down or using a timer (I only have three timers in my panel :)). It also enables my reminder circuit (Lisa) to work correctly since she also has a watch and knows my fuel management technique.
 
Ravioli said:
I guess I'm dumb then. I use the minute hand technique. The minute hand on my watch points to the tank I'm pulling from. Much easier than writing it down or using a timer (I only have three timers in my panel :)). It also enables my reminder circuit (Lisa) to work correctly since she also has a watch and knows my fuel management technique.
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So it doesn’t matter what you’re flying over? If flying across the Great Lakes or mountainous area I would not switch tanks, generally I like to be above an airport.
My Mooney isn’t bothered by fuel imbalance, so I only switch once, about half way.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
So it doesn’t matter what you’re flying over? If flying across the Great Lakes or mountainous area I would not switch tanks, generally I like to be above an airport.
My Mooney isn’t bothered by fuel imbalance, so I only switch once, about half way.
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Some of us live in areas of inhospitable terrain such that we cannot avoid it.
 
Newer Cirrus you get a fuel imbalance light. Once every 30 minutes works great most of the time. You can almost see the fuel needles move in cruise, that always intrigues me. I've flown a couple new 22s a few times during break where they wanted it flown rich at 85% cruise, 30 minutes was too long to keep that fuel imbalance light extinguished. Pilots with no fuel awareness are rare because they eventually kill themselves.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
My Mooney isn’t bothered by fuel imbalance, so I only switch once, about half way.
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What percentage of your flights are over large bodies of water or mountainous areas? Seems an adjustment to the norm would make some sense.

But for the quoted bit: Define half way. Is that time, distance, planned fuel burn, or something else? Winds change, so if you're half the distance and pick up a good headwind you won't be half the time anymore, will you? Unless you push the throttle and now you're burning more than plan and again less than half.

The dumb "minute hand method" has no such variability.
 
never liked the sound of the 'hand of the clock' method. so if it's 12:01, you're on the right tank. if you fall asleep (or more likely aren't paying attention) and wake up at 12:55, you switch to the left tank. in 6 minutes, do you switch back to the right tank?
 
eman1200 said:
never liked the sound of the 'hand of the clock' method. so if it's 12:01, you're on the right tank. if you fall asleep (or more likely aren't paying attention) and wake up at 12:55, you switch to the left tank. in 6 minutes, do you switch back to the right tank?
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I go back to sleep for 5 minutes and am on the correct tank when I wake up again.
 
kyleb said:
I go back to sleep for 5 minutes and am on the correct tank when I wake up again.
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HA! now that process makes sense to me, thanks! I didn't know about the snooze function.
 
eman1200 said:
never liked the sound of the 'hand of the clock' method. so if it's 12:01, you're on the right tank. if you fall asleep (or more likely aren't paying attention) and wake up at 12:55, you switch to the left tank. in 6 minutes, do you switch back to the right tank?
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Set a timer, reset it when you switch. I don't get to uptight about it. I rent, sometimes you get the plane with different amounts in the tanks, so you have to adapt.
 
ja_user said:
True, lowest common denominator
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And pretty much everybody is the lowest common denominator starting out. Unfortunately very few instructors seem to differentiate between “training techniques” and techniques that can/should be replaced by common sense at some point.
 
MauleSkinner said:
And pretty much everybody is the lowest common denominator starting out. Unfortunately very few instructors seem to differentiate between “training techniques” and techniques that can/should be replaced by common sense at some point.
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He's long past "starting out".

140 hours in type? 36 hours in the last 30 days?
Looks like maybe he's working on a Commercial.


Pilot Information
Certificate: Private
Age: 21, Male
Airplane Rating(s): Single-engine land
Seat Occupied: Left
Other Aircraft Rating(s): None
Restraint Used: 3-point
Instrument Rating(s): None
Second Pilot Present: No
Instructor Rating(s): None
Toxicology Performed: No
Medical Certification: Class 1 Without waivers/limitations
Last FAA Medical Exam: March 16, 2019
Occupational Pilot: Yes
Last Flight Review or Equivalent: October 15, 2019
Flight Time: 140 hours (Total, all aircraft), 140 hours (Total, this make and model), 53 hours (Pilot In Command, all aircraft), 86 hours (Last 90 days, all aircraft), 36 hours (Last 30 days, all aircraft)
 
GRG55 said:
He's long past "starting out".

140 hours in type? 36 hours in the last 30 days?
Looks like maybe he's working on a Commercial.


Pilot Information
Certificate: Private
Age: 21, Male
Airplane Rating(s): Single-engine land
Seat Occupied: Left
Other Aircraft Rating(s): None
Restraint Used: 3-point
Instrument Rating(s): None
Second Pilot Present: No
Instructor Rating(s): None
Toxicology Performed: No
Medical Certification: Class 1 Without waivers/limitations
Last FAA Medical Exam: March 16, 2019
Occupational Pilot: Yes
Last Flight Review or Equivalent: October 15, 2019
Flight Time: 140 hours (Total, all aircraft), 140 hours (Total, this make and model), 53 hours (Pilot In Command, all aircraft), 86 hours (Last 90 days, all aircraft), 36 hours (Last 30 days, all aircraft)
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So apparently he hasn’t had “very few instructors”.

but going back to what I replied to, he apparently wasn’t “blindly” following the flight school’s policy, either.
 
I have a reminder programmed into my G3X that says "switch tanks" every 45, and it start automatically when the master comes on. Sometimes I switch tanks when it tells me to, sometimes I don't. Just depends where I am. I have CiES fuel senders, which are super accurate and makes for easy fuel management. But it is nice to have a reminder, cause sometimes I am a bone head.
 
Ravioli said:
What percentage of your flights are over large bodies of water or mountainous areas? Seems an adjustment to the norm would make some sense.

But for the quoted bit: Define half way. Is that time, distance, planned fuel burn, or something else? Winds change, so if you're half the distance and pick up a good headwind you won't be half the time anymore, will you? Unless you push the throttle and now you're burning more than plan and again less than half.

The dumb "minute hand method" has no such variability.
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Halfway in time in air, which usually equals fuel burn.
Like I said, about halfway, but I do prefer to switch when over (or with in gliding distance) of an airport. The point is I switch just once, figuring if valve fails the result probably be a dead engine, I prefer not to do it haphazardly.
 
Rgbeard said:
Some of us live in areas of inhospitable terrain such that we cannot avoid it.
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I’m sure on any long cross country trip you can find areas that would be preferable if you had to have an engine failure.
Only exception I can think of is crossing an ocean.
 
Time in air is unknowable.

Winds change. Routing changes.

Elapsed time and fuel flow are knowable.

kind of like my plane is 100% complete, 90% to go.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Halfway in time in air, which usually equals fuel burn.
Like I said, about halfway, but I do prefer to switch when over (or with in gliding distance) of an airport. The point is I switch just once, figuring if valve fails the result probably be a dead engine, I prefer not to do it haphazardly.
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I've never heard of a fuel selector failing, with the exception of the handle coming apart from the valve itself. If that were there case, I'd rather know about it 30min in with plenty of fuel still in the first tank.

The other risk to switching tanks is contaminated fuel in the tank you're switching to. Again, if the engine dies when I switch, I want as much fuel as possible in the tank I'm switching back to that I know the engine runs on.

I have a 30m timer on my efb. In the pa28s with questionable fuel gauges, I switch when I get the popup. The lance has accurate gauges and a totalizer, but the 30m reminder still cues me to check everything over.

Actually the archer I got all my ratings in landed a mile short of the airport in the early 2000s when the flight school owned it. Similar scenario... solo student neglected to switch tanks and ran one dry. He did a good job of dead sticking it into a field though, and they towed it down the highway back to the airport and it was back on the line after a thorough inspection.
 
ja_user said:
switching tanks every 30 minutes blindly is dumb...
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One person's "dumb" is another person's "simple". :)

Jim K said:
I've never heard of a fuel selector failing, with the exception of the handle coming apart from the valve itself.
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That actually happened to a friend of mine with the handle coming apart in the middle position so that neither tank could feed. However, this was in a homebuilt on the African continent.
 
I wonder how common is this type of accident? There was a guy in a Cherokee at my airport that did the same thing (forgot to switch tanks) and ended up about 40 feet short of the asphalt. Too bad there was a ditch on the approach end of the runway (splat!).
 
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