Pilot knowledge

raw METAR/TAF because, when you know how, it is easier
+1
Same here.

Although EFBs (and other sources) typically offer raw and/or translated options, format for raw data remains concise. (by design; originating from teletype limitations).

(For me, concise = less time)
 
My point was not about paper vs electronic. It is about "FAA format" vs "Foreflight format".

That is an artificial distinction. Both raster and vector charts are provided by the FAA and are equally legal. There is nothing inherently more official about the sectional image version.
 
Can you still shoot a NDB approach? I came along after the AN range approaches, so I’m a clueless Gen X pilot.
 
I’m looking for some feedback on a trend I’ve been noticing lately. Increasingly, students seem to be relying on ForeFlight as their only source of navigational information, and many have very limited familiarity with the underlying FAA publications - sectional charts, the Chart Supplement, Aviation Weather Service products, and so on.

For example, during flight reviews I’ll ask a pilot for the CTAF at a particular airport. Most immediately go to ForeFlight’s info panel and look it up there. But when I point to the sectional and ask what the inverted “C” next to the airport symbol means, they often can’t tell me. The same goes for approach frequencies, phone numbers, and other operational details - many seem unaware that the Chart Supplement is the official source for this information. Even with weather, asking about the valid time of a coded TAF often leads to, “Well, ForeFlight explains it for me.” I’ll admit I’m not a ForeFlight user myself, so that may be coloring my perspective.

I’m bringing this up because I’m trying to understand whether this is simply a natural shift in how pilots interact with information, or whether we’re losing essential foundational knowledge. I don’t want to sound like an old-timer desperately clinging to an E6B - far from it. I’ve written my own aviation apps and I am much more comfortable with electronic information than most of these students in question. But I can’t shake the feeling that all pilots should still know how to read a METAR and interpret the airport info boxes on a sectional.

What say you?

This is a natural shift in how pilots obtain information from official and unofficial sources.

All pilots who have passed their PPL written will have at least a basic understanding of how to read a sectional and METAR. I think the question really is what skills are relevant for a GA pilot smashing bugs today? The answer really depends on how the aircraft they fly is equipped and what form their charts take (paper vs EFB).

My personal aircraft has a glass cockpit with ADS-B In/Out. Not only are the charts displayed right in front of me, but I can pull up the weather (METAR, TAF, etc), SIDs, STARs, and approach plates on the screen right in front of me. The EFB (an IPad) typically is never referenced since it is nothing but a backup source for charts. Should I worry about my iPad skills decaying? The reality is that GA is bifurcated right now. The skills needed to safely pilot the steam gauges I learned on are different (and harder to learn) than the skills my current ride demands. If I lose the glass in front of me, my best option if IMC would be no-gyro vectors for a PAR or ASR (good luck finding one still operational). In that scenario the EFB charts would help me identify options.

If my ride still had steam gauges and no “modern” electronic aids to collecting relevant data (WX, frequencies, etc), I would need to either carry the relevant paper charts or an EFB. Then the skills required would more closely mirror what I learned 30 years ago.
 
That is an artificial distinction. Both raster and vector charts are provided by the FAA and are equally legal. There is nothing inherently more official about the sectional image version.

I think my original question may have been interpreted from a few unintended angles. This isn’t about raster vs. vector, paper vs. tablet, or even about the medium we use in the cockpit. What I’m really asking is much simpler:

Should a pilot still have the ability to read and interpret the information directly from sectional charts and the Chart Supplement, or is it good enough to rely on ForeFlight to interpret that information for them?

That raises a related question - should foreflight be allowed during a written test?
 
Failure modes of the various electronic devices has been addressed.

When my instructor was doing his check ride in an early Cessna 150, he was on the short cross country demo, they hit a strong bump, his arm hit the vertical lever, opening the window, and out went the sectional.

The DPE asked if he was still prepared to complete the task, , he said yes, the present heading will take us to the airport, I will land and buy a new chart. DPE was good with that, , in a few minutes, there was the airport. Unfortunately, they had no sectionals, and the DPE asked "Now what?"

Savvy student replied, the outbound heading was xxx, the reciprocal is yyy, and I cannot miss the home airport.

They had done all the other tasks before he was instructed to create the inflight route to the nearby airport, so that was the end of the check ride.

The DPE complimented him for calmness under stress, and passed him.

All systems have failure modes.
 
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I think my original question may have been interpreted from a few unintended angles. This isn’t about raster vs. vector, paper vs. tablet, or even about the medium we use in the cockpit. What I’m really asking is much simpler:

Should a pilot still have the ability to read and interpret the information directly from sectional charts and the Chart Supplement, or is it good enough to rely on ForeFlight to interpret that information for them?

That raises a related question - should foreflight be allowed during a written test?
Sooner or later all that stuff will got the way of abacus …
 
Should a pilot still have the ability to read and interpret the information directly from sectional charts and the Chart Supplement, or is it good enough to rely on ForeFlight to interpret that information for them?
Again, what would make the Foreflight option unacceptable?
 
Should a pilot still have the ability to read and interpret the information directly from sectional charts and the Chart Supplement, or is it good enough to rely on ForeFlight to interpret that information for them?

Your question is still based on a false premise. ForeFlight does not "interpret" sectional information to come up with their own charting product. The FAA provides sectional charts in vector form. ForeFlight displays them. Same as sectional charts in raster form. Neither view is more official than the other, and neither view is more or less official than a big sheet of paper with a raster chart printed on it.

That is why there are so many EFB apps: FF, Garmin Pilot, iFly, Avare, FlyQ, etc. All they are doing is dumping FAA-provided data on the screen.
 
Question for you older pilots: did all this same sort of hand wringing take place when people started navigating by radio beacons and VORs instead of road maps and railroad tracks and markers painted on buildings?
 
Question for you older pilots: did all this same sort of hand wringing take place when people started navigating by radio beacons and VORs instead of road maps and railroad tracks and markers painted on buildings?
An "older" pilot, who was 20 years old when LF Rangers were introduced would be about 120 years old today. Those who were 20 when VORs were introduced would be about 95.

From what I've heard, there was some skepticism of VORs initially because it wasn't believed that a "radio beam" could be made that narrow. Of course, the VOR doesn't rely on "narrow beams", but phase differentials, so it did, in fact, work.

AFAIK, the current ACS still requires a private pilot applicant to demonstrate a thorough understanding and ability to use a sectional chart as an integrated part of VFR navigation and the modern EFB software still presents you with a section chart so it seems to me that it is still a needed, and required, skill.
 
AFAIK, the current ACS still requires a private pilot applicant to demonstrate a thorough understanding and ability to use a sectional chart as an integrated part of VFR navigation and the modern EFB software still presents you with a section chart so it seems to me that it is still a needed, and required, skill.
But is it required beyond the checkride?
 
Question for you older pilots: did all this same sort of hand wringing take place when people started navigating by radio beacons and VORs instead of road maps and railroad tracks and markers painted on buildings?

You wouldn't have believed all the gnashing of teeth in the online forums when that happened. Plus what would you do if your fancy paper chart caught on fire from the ashes of your cigarette? How would you navigate then?

When I was instructing not all that long ago, I taught all my PPL students XC planning on paper first so they understood some of the basic concepts. It helps to know the how and why, so when the app gives you garbage you will catch it and be able to figure it out. Once I felt that had the base knowledge, then we would introduce EFB planning, because we also need to train for the reality of how we will operate.

Case in point, I typically use FF on my iPad for trips. For a rare occasion, I was planning a short XC in the Citabria when I got an odd result. For a 1.5 hour flight, FF said I needed 90 gallons of fuel, which was a problem since I only carry 36 gallons at a time. After a little digging, I figured out when I created the performance profile for the Citabria years earlier, I had a dyslexic moment entering the fuel burn.
 
I’m looking for some feedback on a trend I’ve been noticing lately. Increasingly, students seem to be relying on ForeFlight as their only source of navigational information, and many have very limited familiarity with the underlying FAA publications - sectional charts, the Chart Supplement, Aviation Weather Service products, and so on.

For example, during flight reviews I’ll ask a pilot for the CTAF at a particular airport. Most immediately go to ForeFlight’s info panel and look it up there. But when I point to the sectional and ask what the inverted “C” next to the airport symbol means, they often can’t tell me. The same goes for approach frequencies, phone numbers, and other operational details - many seem unaware that the Chart Supplement is the official source for this information. Even with weather, asking about the valid time of a coded TAF often leads to, “Well, ForeFlight explains it for me.” I’ll admit I’m not a ForeFlight user myself, so that may be coloring my perspective.

I’m bringing this up because I’m trying to understand whether this is simply a natural shift in how pilots interact with information, or whether we’re losing essential foundational knowledge. I don’t want to sound like an old-timer desperately clinging to an E6B - far from it. I’ve written my own aviation apps and I am much more comfortable with electronic information than most of these students in question. But I can’t shake the feeling that all pilots should still know how to read a METAR and interpret the airport info boxes on a sectional.

What say you?
I think you are right on both accounts ! There is a shift and we are losing foundational knowledge. I spent time and money learning and practicing things like vor, ADF approaches, that soon disappeared to be replaced by "just follow the magenta line". As long as the electrons flow, it's basically the same sectional, the airport facilities director (chart sup) etc. and are all in one place. and is much more convenient. I once lost a sectional (paper type) through the storm window of a sundowner (instantly sucked out), trying to unfold it. However if the electrons stop flowing for whatever reason, you better have and know how to use the legacy equipment and legacy publications. I too was reluctant to the EFB stuff until i started using and got used to the flight apps, but since i started with a flight case full of facilities director, tca and sectionals etc, I should be in better shape than the new pilots who focus on the glass panel and pay little attention to the whiz wheel etc, if the electrical power fails. By the way what is the inverted "C" mean ?, I know i can check the back panel of the chart (and i will, when i figure out how to bring it up in foreflight!). I am with you, these things should still be taught, or you end up a "child of the magenta line" .
 
You wouldn't have believed all the gnashing of teeth in the online forums when that happened. Plus what would you do if your fancy paper chart caught on fire from the ashes of your cigarette? How would you navigate then?

When I was instructing not all that long ago, I taught all my PPL students XC planning on paper first so they understood some of the basic concepts. It helps to know the how and why, so when the app gives you garbage you will catch it and be able to figure it out. Once I felt that had the base knowledge, then we would introduce EFB planning, because we also need to train for the reality of how we will operate.

Case in point, I typically use FF on my iPad for trips. For a rare occasion, I was planning a short XC in the Citabria when I got an odd result. For a 1.5 hour flight, FF said I needed 90 gallons of fuel, which was a problem since I only carry 36 gallons at a time. After a little digging, I figured out when I created the performance profile for the Citabria years earlier, I had a dyslexic moment entering the fuel burn.
Just an observation; I don't think forums, internet etc, were around when lighted airways and radio navigation became a thing. Also it's not quite accurate to say "PPL", PPC is more accurate these days (probably always was).
 
Geezer view here!

IFR was originally I Follow Railroads.

Maryland University Armory had a circle, number of miles and with arrow pointing to College Park Airport, a rather plain open field, with a quancet hut hanger. The university was much more recognizable than the airport.

Farm barns, warehouses, and water towers were similarly decorated by the CAA.

When I started lessons, ADF was King, WMAL and WTOP were the CGS navigation aids.

The VOR system was in the middle of its buildout.

Nobody wished to go back to radio ranges, but a few of us newbies knew how to fly them.


The real greatest thing since sliced bread then was sectionals printed on both sides, at about the same price as a single chart had been. Half as many charts in your case for a given trip.

There were a few pilots who preferred ADF, but they had airline approved receivers, and used 50,000 watt commercial stations for interstate flights. One of these was a Bonanza with factory long range tanks, plus tip tanks, plus a suitable relief bottle. He had a second home and business interests in Miami, but home was Washington DC. He flew solo, non stop, great circle, from Miami to WTOP coming home. Going, a Miami station was used. The ADF had the station locked in on the ground before he had completed his engine checks. His wife packed the food for the southbound trip, a restaurant packed the northbound.

For the ordinary pilot, the VOR system was absolutely the most trusted and used device, especially instrument pilots.


On a very personal note, I was very pleased that the plane I took the check ride in had no ADF, as that would have required me to demonstrate constant heading inbound and outbound, with a crosswind. I accomplished that task on my Instrument check ride.
 
But is it required beyond the checkride?
There certainly needs to be a level of competency in reading charts on a flight review, which seems to be the focus of the original question. How detailed that knowledge needs to be is in the judgement of the CFI conducting the review.
 
There certainly needs to be a level of competency in reading charts on a flight review, which seems to be the focus of the original question. How detailed that knowledge needs to be is in the judgement of the CFI conducting the review.
The focus of the original question seems to be whether a pilot needs to be able to get information from a sectional chart or is a different presentation of the same information acceptable?
Should a pilot still have the ability to read and interpret the information directly from sectional charts and the Chart Supplement, or is it good enough to rely on ForeFlight to interpret that information for them?
I think @midlifeflyer gave the best direct comparison…do you need to use government-published approach charts, or is Jeppesen acceptable?
 
We all fly for different reasons.

Back in the day airspace was less restrictive, and a 10nm error woudn't have you bust two class Bs, a class C and three restricted areas.

For the recreational flyer (with few exceptions) being glued to a paper chart, compass and sectional will never be fun.

Yes, most of us can still do it, if we really have to, but we find no pleasure in doing that. I like looking out the window, pointing out things on the ground to my passengers, while not having to worry if that tiny lake or river we just passed was on our right or left side, and if it was 5 minutes late.

I trained in a plane without GPS, in a part of the country where it was relatively easy for a student pilot to get lost. I learned to add VORs into my position checks, and later used a Garmin 12 handheld GPS to help with SA.
When EFBs became a thing, I jumped on the bandwagon. Yes, I could still navigate with a map and a compass, but I wouldn't enjoy it.

Every generation of flyers used whatever tech was available to make flying easier and more enjoyable. Even the E6B could be seen as a crutch by earlier pilots/navigators who had to do all that math by hand, or use conversion tables.
Nobody needs to know how to operate/troubleshoot hot bulb engines and vaccuum tube radios today.
 
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Again, what would make the Foreflight option unacceptable?

It is certainly acceptable, but my observation was about those who don't know (or have forgotten) how to read the FAA charts. One does not necessarily mean the other.

Same with weather. I have used the plain language format once in a while when I come across an odd ball METAR code. But not knowing how to read a coded METAR is a different matter. That's what I was referring to.

But this thread has gone in directions I never intended, like NDB's, paper charts, abacusus....
 
It is certainly acceptable, but my observation was about those who don't know (or have forgotten) how to read the FAA charts. One does not necessarily mean the other.

Same with weather. I have used the plain language format once in a while when I come across an odd ball METAR code. But not knowing how to read a coded METAR is a different matter. That's what I was referring to.
ok, so once again, why do you think it is necessary to be able to read and interpret something other than Foreflight when Foreflight provides the same information?
 
ok, so once again, why do you think it is necessary to be able to read and interpret something other than Foreflight when Foreflight provides the same information?
Maybe he is worried about when AI data centers take over the electricity grid and us peons aren't allowed to use electricity anymore. How is the lowly PPL supposed to know what his frequency is if he can't read the charts he scrounged out of his grandfather's flight bag and read by the light of a candle? :biggrin:

I trained on paper because my phone was so crappy, it couldn't run an EFB and charts were actually something I could afford. I am still happier planning and navigating off of paper, as it is what I am most comfortable and confident in. I understand that such behavior and the adjacent skillset required is from a bygone era, though, and although I am sad that is the case, I am not sure that there is much "wrong" with it.

It feels really wrong to be so dependent on what often is a fragile piece of technology, but I am not sure it is any different from the reality that a vast majority of people can no longer use an atlas or road map, cook without a youtube video showing them how, or make simple repairs on their own clothing. I am very glad I have those skillsets, but for the most part, no one else in my age bracket even understands why those skills are considered "skills" or why they are important - because, after all, they have their phone, restaurants or the internet, and Walmart always has a new shirt and pants if the buttons come off their old ones. I am sure my great-grandmother would be appalled to know that I don't have practical experience milking a cow or butchering chickens.
 
I am sure my great-grandmother would be appalled to know that I don't have practical experience milking a cow or butchering chickens.
Well, that certainly lowers MY opinion of you. But I suppose before long you’re going to start playing that whole “childbirth” card to distract us from the facts.
 
Well, that certainly lowers MY opinion of you. But I suppose before long you’re going to start playing that whole “childbirth” card to distract us from the facts.
:rofl: If it helps, I have some experience milking goats, just not cows...and I've helped shear sheep before. In a few years or a decade, maybe, we can get our homestead with an airstrip and rectify such disappointments. :biggrin:
 
METAR codes are not inherently easier to read. They are a huge and totally unnecessary barrier to entry for would-be pilots. As are the other "codes" that are used because type space is at a premium on a printed page.
 
As a career college educator, I embrace any technology that can enhance learning and productivity. I'm not bothered by the adoption of EFBs for navigation and flight planning to the exclusion of paper charts and publications. But you do need to know how to use electronic media to find and use the information you need (and are required to have) to fly safely.

I'm not worried about my EFB dying and leaving me powerless without my paper charts (which I don't carry). My primary EFB is on my tablet. I have a backup, if needed on my phone. If those fail, my spouse also has a copy of the EFB on her phone. If that fails, I have enough information to fly an IFR approach on either my portable or panel GPS. I think I'm covered.

This all reminds me of the arguments about allowing calculators in classes, or making students hand-calculate statistics instead of using more powerful analysis tools. Technology allows one to go deeper and faster into topics, but it doesn't relieve the need for understanding. Just the reverse: it demands more understanding, because with a bigger shovel, you can dig yourself a bigger hole dumber and faster.

What does concern me is student pilots who are so anxiety-ridden about a cross-country flight that they can't do it without "pre-flying" the route on Google Earth. This means that they do not know or are not confident enough about how to use a navigation chart, electronic or otherwise, to match up with the real world. If you have to make an in-flight diversion due to weather, fuel consumption, or an emergency, you won't have time to "pre-fly" your new route and relieve your performance anxiety. You have to know how to dial up a new route in your fancy boxes, or look out the window.
 
This all reminds me of the arguments about allowing calculators in classes, or making students hand-calculate statistics instead of using more powerful analysis tools. Technology allows one to go deeper and faster into topics, but it doesn't relieve the need for understanding. Just the reverse: it demands more understanding, because with a bigger shovel, you can dig yourself a bigger hole dumber and faster.
And I think that’s where the OP got himself crossed up. He seems to think that “understanding” means being able to read sectional charts, METARs, TAFs, and Chart Supplements, not understanding the same information from a different provider.
 
I’ll play devil’s advocate…..how many of you keep a copy of a ‘phone book’ with the ‘yellow pages’ to look up phone number? :biggrin:
I wish they (and land lines) still existed. Many times years ago I’d see a flock of pheasants, or a deer and that evening look at the plat book (that also used to come every year and either get the phone number directly from that or a name and address of the owner and look it up in the phone book and get permission to hunt it. Or have a farm machine break down and remember where I saw an old one sitting and look them up to see if they would sell (or lend until one could be shipped) a part. Nowadays unless you have them in your “contacts” good luck trying to do that.
 
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