Pencil Whipped Annuals

Not to bolster any experience but this is my 2nd airplane. I came from a 1998 C-172SP. The "scary" laundry list could be a factor of 2 things - my parter being an airline mechanic and Danny having a reputation about being very thorough. I don't like the back-forth (integrity) issue over the oil filter having been cut or not.

FWIW- I believe the seller is blowing smoke as this airplane has been "for sale" for awhile (not sure exactly) but it's not listed, just a word of mouth sale.

I'm hoping that I could see the inspection report and cooler heads prevail. But I sense that the seller may already be upset and will not negotiate the price down, but we shall see. He may not even want to sell to us at full price of this thing has blown over.
 
denverpilot said:
I couldn't give two ****s that something was "annualed yesterday" if I were buying it.
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Nate, I generally agree with you except for this statement. If it were "annualled yesterday" the oil filter would be clean on its exterior.

What we don't know is how many hours on this bird since yesterday's annual? If just a few, it is an indicator of a sloppy annual and my pencil whipping antennae would be fully deployed and wiggling to detect other falsifications.

-Skip
 
If it's airworthy he'd be a fool to lower his price from 27k. Hell if he had any sense he could post it on barnstormers, trade a plane and ASO and have it sold for full asking price within the month.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Not to bolster any experience but this is my 2nd airplane. I came from a 1998 C-172SP. The "scary" laundry list could be a factor of 2 things - my parter being an airline mechanic and Danny having a reputation about being very thorough. I don't like the back-forth (integrity) issue over the oil filter having been cut or not.



FWIW- I believe the seller is blowing smoke as this airplane has been "for sale" for awhile (not sure exactly) but it's not listed, just a word of mouth sale.



I'm hoping that I could see the inspection report and cooler heads prevail. But I sense that the seller may already be upset and will not negotiate the price down, but we shall see. He may not even want to sell to us at full price of this thing has blown over.
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Who paid for the annual? Where is the log book entry for that annual?


Who paid "Danny" for the list of 42 items?

Where does that list reside?



And, as to the "seller blowing smoke" it sounds like this plane is not being actively marketed. The seller may be indifferent to selling, lazy, or otherwise non-motivated to sell it for a variety of reasons that don't affect you.

I have lots of things for sale under similar circumstances.

If you want to buy things that are being "not marketed", you have to convince the seller to let them go. You have to make it easy to sell the item and collect the cash.

When I bought my plane, I had a list of things I would take care of, the list had things the seller would take care of. The list was fair, but there was a bit of effort required on the seller's part.

We resolved all but one item on who would pay for it. The seller refused to budge, and I walked away.

The seller then had to pay for EVERYTHING, including the items I was going to cover.

11 months later, I made a much simpler offer (as all the discrepancies had been resolved by the seller, at seller's expense) of the exact same price that had been rejected 11 months earlier, with no conditions.

The seller jumped on it.
 
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JoseCuervo said:
What does a vacuum pump cost?
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Few hundred bucks depending on what you want. You can probably get a good used wet pump and air/oil sep cheap, or just say screw it, go glass, and replace it with an alternator.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Who paid for the annual? Where is the log book entry for that annual?


Who paid "Danny" for the list of 42 items?

Where does that list reside?
Click to expand...

I believe the seller used the same A&P he's been using for years to do the annual. Danny was hired by the OP and the partners to do a prepurchase inspection. Sounds like one of the partners has the report, and the OP hadn't read it before posting.

Fwiw, I doubt the plane has been flown at all since the annual. The seller lost his medical, I believe.

Regarding the transponder-the plane is inside the DC SFRA; the transponder is not inspected as part of the annual, but it's a no-go if it's not operational.

I assume the logbook entry for the annual is in the ummm...logbook?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Not to bolster any experience but this is my 2nd airplane. I came from a 1998 C-172SP. The "scary" laundry list could be a factor of 2 things - my parter being an airline mechanic and Danny having a reputation about being very thorough. I don't like the back-forth (integrity) issue over the oil filter having been cut or not.

FWIW- I believe the seller is blowing smoke as this airplane has been "for sale" for awhile (not sure exactly) but it's not listed, just a word of mouth sale.

I'm hoping that I could see the inspection report and cooler heads prevail. But I sense that the seller may already be upset and will not negotiate the price down, but we shall see. He may not even want to sell to us at full price of this thing has blown over.
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I am 100% with Jaybird on this one.. There are way too many mixed signals and fishy stuff going on..... I think there are alot of things going on with this plane the owner is not disclosing... IMHO..
 
N801BH said:
I am 100% with Jaybird on this one.. There are way too many mixed signals and fishy stuff going on..... I think there are alot of things going on with this plane the owner is not disclosing... IMHO..
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IT'S A $27,000 WIDE BODY 182! At that price the only disclosures are 'it runs' and 'no corrosion'. That's it, at that price log books are a bonus. You get what you pay for. Starting prices on a decent narrow body are $40k, and wide bodies $60k.

I'm not saying buy it, but I am saying that if you don't like what this deal is representing, you're looking at the wrong price range.
 
Henning said:
IT'S A $27,000 WIDE BODY 182! At that price the only disclosures are 'it runs' and 'no corrosion'. That's it, at that price log books are a bonus. You get what you pay for. Starting prices on a decent narrow body are $40k, and wide bodies $60k.

I'm not saying buy it, but I am saying that if you don't like what this deal is representing, you're looking at the wrong price range.
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Yeah, BUT..

Suppose the motor is barely hanging on to life.. New motor is 40,000

+ mounts and all accessories 10,000

+ any other squawks,, thousands more...

So now you have a 27,000+ 40,000+10,000 + ???? = 80 grand or more in a UNKNOWN aircraft..:redface:..

I would not roll the dice on this one...:no:
 
N801BH said:
Yeah, BUT..

Suppose the motor is barely hanging on to life.. New motor is 40,000

+ mounts and all accessories 10,000

+ any other squawks,, thousands more...

So now you have a 27,000+ 40,000+10,000 + ???? = 80 grand or more in a UNKNOWN aircraft..:redface:..

I would not roll the dice on this one...:no:
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Why make up a bunch of "suppose" when the OP has already paid for a list from an AP?

Like Henning stated, is corrosion on the list? Does the motor run?

It is unclear from the OP what is on the list. There are hints that there are non-compliance with AD's, but that is not clear, and not clear which ADs apply.

There also seems to be a ****ing match over the date of the annual, the last oil change, and hours flown or not flown since the oil change and since the annual. All of which can easily be resolved by the OP looking at the logbooks and the tach.

I doubt anybody wants to buy a $27k plane and make it an $80k plane. But, this might be a good $27k plane that can be made into a $35k plane that will meet the OP's needs for years to come.
 
N801BH said:
Yeah, BUT..

Suppose the motor is barely hanging on to life.. New motor is 40,000

+ mounts and all accessories 10,000

+ any other squawks,, thousands more...

So now you have a 27,000+ 40,000+10,000 + ???? = 80 grand or more in a UNKNOWN aircraft..:redface:..

I would not roll the dice on this one...:no:
Click to expand...

Like I said, whether to buy or not is immaterial, this plane is by no means misrepresented by its price. If you don't like what this plane represents, you shouldn't be wasting the seller's time and money. The core on the engine is $15k, and if the airframe is clean, there's another $15k. If you are paying core price for a flying plane, you can't ***** about it. If you are expecting a nice plane for a core price, you are wasting people's time.

BTW, since his buddy is an A&P, they can do the engine for <$20k.
 
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Overhaul is NOT 40k

PRICE LIST


REMOVAL AND INSTALLATION IS AVAILABLE FOR A FLAT FEE OF $500 PER ENGINE PLUS THE COST OF NEW MOUNTS. THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS SO CALL OR EMAIL FOR DETAILS.

CONTINENTAL

O-200 $11,500.00 O-300 $13,500.00

ALL O-200 AND 0-300 ENGINES INCLUDE NEW CYLINDERS AND NEW REAL GASKET REPLACEABLE SHROUD TUBE SEALS. SEE FOR YOURSELF AT:

http://www.realgaskets.com/files/colorpush.htm

THEY REALLY WORK!!

IO-360 $15,495.00 TSIO-360 $16,495.00

O-470 $14,995.00 IO-470 $15,495.00

IO-520 $16,495.00 TSIO-520 $17,495.00

IO-550 $17,495.00 GTSIO-520 $26,995.00

E-185 $21,495.00 E-225 $21,465.00
Click to expand...
http://www.hotwaircraft.com/NO_SURPRISE_PRICING.html



Henning said:
Like I said, whether to buy or not is immaterial, this plane is by no means misrepresented by its price. If you don't like what this plane represents, you shouldn't be wasting the seller's time and money. The core on the engine is $15k, and if the airframe is clean, there's another $15k. If you are paying core price for a flying plane, you can't ***** about it. If you are expecting a nice plane for a core price, you are wasting people's time.

BTW, since his buddy is an A&P, they can do the engine for <$20k.
Click to expand...

Yup
 
N801BH said:
Assuming the crank, case, cam and major components are servicable....

I would price it as if all those being junk.. Cause if they are, the good deal gets rotten pretty damn fast.. IMHO..
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Why would you price them as junk in a running engine? Especially one that makes less than .5hp/cuin? If you want new, fine, but then the price becomes over $500,000. If this airframe has no corrosion, I can put in a factory new engine and prop for $50k (probably get the FADEC one from Continental, or the 230hp Diesel already STCd around the same price) full Garmin glass double 600, double 750, latest greatest A/P, for $130k, top quality paint $17k, top quality interior + BAS harness and new glass all around, $10k. Add $5k for new bladders and tip tanks to extend range.

Or better yet, just hand it over to the Peteren and say, "I'd like a 260 Katmai please." and let them handle the whole thing handing you back a nice modern plane, better than new, for around half the price.
 
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Interesting thread - especially to an old Lane owner like me.

I'm not throwing my dog into this fight - just some comments.

First: The ANNUAL is a condition inspection, period.
Nothing more, nothing less (as ornery Jim knows - how ya doin Jim?) Yeah, there are a few things that are required under the regs (darn few) and if they are met the plane can fly away.

Next (and whatever): A clean oil filter can is not one of them.
In fact this last annual was the first my mechanic actually got to change the oil and filters in many years
(cuz I do my own changes and the timing does not coincide with the annual inspection)
In other years he simply asks that I bring the filters around for him to cut open when I get around to changing. Most of the time I cut them open myself and tell him they were clean and he makes a note in his work book.
(usually solvent washed into a jar and a magnet used to separate ferrous from non ferrous - I was building engines before he reached puberty.)
"Ya wanna see em?" I ask.
He simply glares and says no because he knows I am more picky about my engines than he will ever be.

And visual condition means nothing. He has an early 172 - 6 cylinder Continental - in the shop right now. He did have to change out one cylinder for a leaking exh. valve and a couple of plugs were bad when pressure tested. The engine starts immediately and runs smoothly now - good to go.
However, it looks like a refugee from the scrap yard. Headliner is sagging over the rear seats (never carries passengers). The paint is grungy (hasn't seen soap or polish since Johnson was president). The side windows are hazy. Mismatched used tires. The instrument panel is a hodgepodge. Radios are dodgy. And on. And on.
It is airworthy and being signed off as such.
Would I want to own it? Heck no.
Would I be afraid to fly it? Heck no.
It has been IRAN'd and is airworthy.
 
N801BH said:
Yeah, BUT..

Suppose the motor is barely hanging on to life.. New motor is 40,000

+ mounts and all accessories 10,000

+ any other squawks,, thousands more...

So now you have a 27,000+ 40,000+10,000 + ???? = 80 grand or more in a UNKNOWN aircraft..:redface:..

I would not roll the dice on this one...:no:
Click to expand...

If all those discrepancies were like new, do you think the price would be 27k?

Almost 100% of the aircraft bought, are projects to the new owner. they are never 100% exactly what was wanted.
 
James331 said:
Overhaul is NOT 40k
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The overhaul may not be $40k but by the time you add:

-removing and reinstalling the engine

-overhauling the CS prop.

-overhauling the prop governor

-overhauling or replacing the vacuum pump.

-overhauling or replacing the alternator.

-overhauling or replacing the exhaust system.

-overhauling and/or cleaning up the engine mount.

-new lord rubber mounts.

-repairing or replacing the baffling.

-new scat.

-other misc parts and a few things I'm forgetting.

You're going to be at $32k.

Have the cam and crank rejected; do a custom job on the cylinders (including cryo) and, yes, you're talking $40k.

Ask me how I know.

Or you could skip all the other stuff and have the plane nickel/dime you to eternity.
 
timwinters said:
Or you could skip all the other stuff and have I the plane nickel/dime you to eternity.
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Or make it a restoration project, up grade to the PEE PONK 0-520 engine/prop, new GPS nav/com system, new paint and interior, or polish. and make it the aircraft you really wanted.
 
Except I don't want a P-Ponk...much less a PEE PONK. I like being able to burn auto gas....and so does my engine.

PEE PONK sounds like an engine about ready to take a dump to me!

Besides with Seth trick cylinders, I'll be making well over 230hp...I was with his last set.
 
timwinters said:
Except I don't want a P-Ponk...much less a PEE PONK. I like being able to burn auto gas....and so does my engine.

PEE PONK sounds like an engine about ready to take a dump to me!

Besides with Seth trick cylinders, I'll be making well over 230hp...I was with his last set.
Click to expand...

That's just it really, same thing, you end up with the engine you want without having to pay for the remainder of the engine someone else wanted, but since you're buying at core value, any hours you put on this one are free.
 
James331 said:
:yeahthat:

27k is nothing for a 182, even if you addressed those snags is still seems like a OK deal.
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I have seen "cheap" airplanes go way past the price of a much better airplane during the repair phase, and still be beat-up old airplanes. Cessna parts prices are horrible and it doesn't take much to run the bill far out of sight. Some corrosion in a critical spot can easily turn the airplane into a parts-plane.

No such thing as a cheap old airplane.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I have seen "cheap" airplanes go way past the price of a much better airplane during the repair phase, and still be beat-up old airplanes. Cessna parts prices are horrible and it doesn't take much to run the bill far out of sight. Some corrosion in a critical spot can easily turn the airplane into a parts-plane.

No such thing as a cheap old airplane.
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There is nothing such as a cheap airplane period. The question is what do you want it to be, and what are you paying for. A clean 182 airframe of this vintage and configuration is exactly what I would want if I wanted a Katmai. I haven't followed the market closely recently, but Katmais had a propensity to sell for what people had in them or even a premium due to the lead time getting one done. A plane like this, as long as the core is good and the airframe clean, I am not going to pay for any improvements someone else did that I will not reuse.

Every circumstance is different, every deal is different. You need to first define what you want and create expectations to match.
 
Henning said:
There is nothing such as a cheap airplane period. The question is what do you want it to be, and what are you paying for. A clean 182 airframe of this vintage and configuration is exactly what I would want if I wanted a Katmai. I haven't followed the market closely recently, but Katmais had a propensity to sell for what people had in them or even a premium due to the lead time getting one done. A plane like this, as long as the core is good and the airframe clean, I am not going to pay for any improvements someone else did that I will not reuse.

Every circumstance is different, every deal is different. You need to first define what you want and create expectations to match.
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That's exactly what I was thinking too. Next holding my hopes high if it's been outside for decades, though.
 
Dan Thomas said:
No such thing as a cheap old airplane.
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Well, perhaps if we can define "cheap". I bought my '58 182A for $5K. Wings off and in the rafters in the barn. Chickens (literally) using what was left of the back seat for roosting. Motor had 1100 hours on it but had a "knock".

The "knock" was a problem with the starter adapter. I had a basket case, but I had the opportunity to take it from spinner to aft nav light down to bare metal and start all over again.

The saving grace was that all the "pieces" were still there. For about $200 in rattle cans I got all the bits and pieces primed and painted. I found a Navy painter who wanted some spare change so I got the whole paint job to Navy standards for $4K (we built him a spray booth in a barn with plastic and 2x4s) without a ripple or a run on it. 25 years later it looks like it came out of the spray booth yesterday.

Airtex seats and headliner. All gyros overhauled and I swapped five years worth of annuals for a pair of KX-170s with nav heads.

All told, I've got about $18K cash money in it, "runout" engine that has had six new jugs, no metal in the filter, and you can't have it for less than $60K, cash on the barrelhead. From my widow.

Of course, my company bills my time out at $170 an hour and I do "charity" teaching at the college for $70 an hour. Factor all that in and I've probably got a quarter of a million in it, but it was a labor of love, and what is that worth?

Depends on how you calculate "cheap".

Jim
 
ya but Jim....did you pay extra for those colors?...or was all that Navy surplus that came with the painter?:yikes: :D
 
Dr. O said:
First: The ANNUAL is a condition inspection, period. Nothing more, nothing less (as ornery Jim knows - how ya doin Jim?) .
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I B doin' fine, Doc, and you? I just can't let stupidity threads like this take flight without making my point(s). I do suffer from a personality disorder -- I can't suffer fools graciously.

Jim
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
ya but Jim....did you pay extra for those colors?...or was all that Navy surplus that came with the painter?:yikes: :D
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Only the finest automotive paints available, and not a Navy drop in the mixture. I realize the colors are suspicious, but blue has been my favorite since my '51 Chevy "sniff' long since gone to that great junkyard in the sky.

Jim
 
Jaybird180 said:
....
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?
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Not very prevalent at all. Sort of the aviation version of an urban myth which has been propagated by uneducated aircraft owners who expect their old faded airplane to come out of annual looking brand spanking new.

Besides, I do not know of any A&P or IA who signs off maintenance records using a pencil anyway.
 
Sounds like a lot of these pencil whipper A&P dirtbags need to be pistol whipped to avoid making such nasty moves!
 
SkyDog58 said:
Not very prevalent at all. Sort of the aviation version of an urban myth which has been propagated by uneducated aircraft owners who expect their old faded airplane to come out of annual looking brand spanking new.

Besides, I do not know of any A&P or IA who signs off maintenance records using a pencil anyway.
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Nicely done. Speaks for us all ...

Jim
 
Skip Miller said:
Nate, I generally agree with you except for this statement. If it were "annualled yesterday" the oil filter would be clean on its exterior.



What we don't know is how many hours on this bird since yesterday's annual? If just a few, it is an indicator of a sloppy annual and my pencil whipping antennae would be fully deployed and wiggling to detect other falsifications.



-Skip
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I think someone else mentioned this but since you asked...

Oil changes nor oil filters have anything to do with an annual inspection.

Jim gave some good information on what an annual inspection is, and I really don't have anything to add to it.

If we're not close enough to our change cycle to have one of his shop underlings do it, our mechanic doesn't get asked to change oil during inspections.

He doesn't particularly need the extra work of a Cessna oil change, either.

We do attempt to make the safety wire job look like his and once in a while it takes two tries. ;)

timwinters said:
The overhaul may not be $40k but by the time you add:



-removing and reinstalling the engine



-overhauling the CS prop.



-overhauling the prop governor



-overhauling or replacing the vacuum pump.



-overhauling or replacing the alternator.



-overhauling or replacing the exhaust system.



-overhauling and/or cleaning up the engine mount.



-new lord rubber mounts.



-repairing or replacing the baffling.



-new scat.



-other misc parts and a few things I'm forgetting.



You're going to be at $32k.



Have the cam and crank rejected; do a custom job on the cylinders (including cryo) and, yes, you're talking $40k.



Ask me how I know.



Or you could skip all the other stuff and have the plane nickel/dime you to eternity.
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Tim is the person going through this all right now who's writing checks right now.

I think anyone looking at a likely clap-trap (at that price it's almost inevitable), ought to read the numbers above carefully and decide if they're willing to spend that.

We're ahead of Tim on the vaccuum pump, both mags, one wing bladder, engine mounts, some new scat...

So we'll only be at $35K if we start making metal. LOL!

And that still won't put the IFR GPS in the panel. ;)

This airplane crap ain't for the faint of wallet, that's for damned sure.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Not very prevalent at all. Sort of the aviation version of an urban myth which has been propagated by uneducated aircraft owners who expect their old faded airplane to come out of annual looking brand spanking new.

Besides, I do not know of any A&P or IA who signs off maintenance records using a pencil anyway.
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I don't know, guys...

At every place I've ever been based at, and there have been many, one could always find the local "pencil whipper" if s/he chose to do so.

I choose not to do so but I have used a couple over the years unwittingly before gaining the local knowledge required to avoid them.

And they've all been "trunkers" except one.
 
were they young whipper snappers? :D

....is a trunker not able to see and inspect as well as an expensive FBO?:dunno::yikes::hairraise::yikes:
 
Skip Miller said:
Nate, I generally agree with you except for this statement. If it were "annualled yesterday" the oil filter would be clean on its exterior.

What we don't know is how many hours on this bird since yesterday's annual? If just a few, it is an indicator of a sloppy annual and my pencil whipping antennae would be fully deployed and wiggling to detect other falsifications.

-Skip
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The airplane was last reportedly flown in July. The annual was part of the pre-sale routine wasn't flown until our attempts at a demo flight, making it obvious that it wasn't changed.
 
Henning said:
IT'S A $27,000 WIDE BODY 182! At that price the only disclosures are 'it runs' and 'no corrosion'. That's it, at that price log books are a bonus. You get what you pay for. Starting prices on a decent narrow body are $40k, and wide bodies $60k.

I'm not saying buy it, but I am saying that if you don't like what this deal is representing, you're looking at the wrong price range.
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What is this wide vs narrow body business you speak of? I had no idea there were different fuselages for C-182s.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What is this wide vs narrow body business you speak of? I had no idea there were different fuselages for C-182s.
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The earlier ones were about the width of a 172. Lower gross weight though, too. Seems like they should have been faster but I don't believe they were.
 
Brad Z said:
The earlier ones were about the width of a 172. Lower gross weight though, too. Seems like they should have been faster but I don't believe they were.
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They are a few knots faster, they also have the stab trim rather than the trim tab, so the tail is cleaner as well.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What is this wide vs narrow body business you speak of? I had no idea there were different fuselages for C-182s.
Click to expand...

There were three fuselages used for the 182, IIRC up to 62 they were the 180 fuselage which is about as wide as a 172, then a year or two they used the 185 fuselage of the same width. After that they came out with the Omnivision fuselage with the back windows and I think added 4" to the cabin width.
 
Brad Z said:
The earlier ones were about the width of a 172. Lower gross weight though, too. Seems like they should have been faster but I don't believe they were.
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I believe 1961 were the fastest. Narrow body and swept tail.
 
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