Pencil Whipped Annuals

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
I'm in the process (or was) of buying the Skylane that I previously lamented passing up. Long story on how I went back to possibly purchasing it which I may get to later.

Turns out that we couldn't get to a good pre sale demo flight.

1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken
2- transponder (mode c) inop
3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with
4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5
5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)
6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week
7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual

So, we're walking away from the deal. Seller balked about "another buyer".
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm in the process (or was) of buying the Skylane that I previously lamented passing up. Long story on how I went back to possibly purchasing it which I may get to later.

Turns out that we couldn't get to a good pre sale demo flight.

How long ago was the annual done. Lots of stuff breaks between annuals.

1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken

That is an annual catch.

2- transponder (mode c) inop

That is NOT an annual problem.

3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with

Multitude implies a vast number; why now share with us what they are?

4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5

Not an annual problem

5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)

Not an annual problem.

6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week

That would be "forty". I could care less about your prebuy inspection list. How many of them were unairworthy versus "we think this is a little bit worn"?

7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual

ANd you know this how? Oil filters and everything else in the engine compartment can get filthy in a short time.

So, we're walking away from the deal. Seller balked about "another buyer".
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?

Not really. Stupid first owners who don't understand what "annual" means are really widespread. You seem to fall into the latter category.

Sellers don't "balk" at anything. Try the comment again.

You will not find an airplane to your liking until you come to the realization that "annual" doesn't mean "fixit" to every little pi$$ant problem with the airplane.

Jim
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.....
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm in the process (or was) of buying the Skylane that I previously lamented passing up. Long story on how I went back to possibly purchasing it which I may get to later.

Turns out that we couldn't get to a good pre sale demo flight.

1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken
2- transponder (mode c) inop
3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with
4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5
5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)
6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week
7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual

So, we're walking away from the deal. Seller balked about "another buyer".
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, more prevalent than it should be, however not as prevalent as one may fear. The majority of maintenance done is honest good work. Then you have 2 versions of pencil whipped, owner initiated, and owner targeted. One the owner is paying for the pencil whipping, the other the owner is getting ripped off by the pencil whipping (paying for services not performed).

Thing is when you start getting into the 'for sale' category, some people just can't resist the temptation to save some money. F you don't like the deal, negotiate it or walk. Is there anything about the deal that's good.
 
You might be very surprised as to how low a differential compression reading is considered acceptable according to Continental and Lycoming. Take a look at the service letters specifying the procedures and the allowable limits. Also, I think you would be very unhappy if the IA at your first annual inspection insisted on repairing things to your pre-buy standards before he would sign off the aircraft as airworthy.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm in the process (or was) of buying the Skylane that I previously lamented passing up. Long story on how I went back to possibly purchasing it which I may get to later.

Turns out that we couldn't get to a good pre sale demo flight.

1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken
2- transponder (mode c) inop
3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with
4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5
5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)
6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week
7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual

So, we're walking away from the deal. Seller balked about "another buyer".
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?
Click to expand...

I told you Danny is very thorough. There's a reason it's a $27k skylane. Did it have corrosion?
 
Brad Z said:
I told you Danny is very thorough. There's a reason it's a $27k skylane. Did it have corrosion?
Click to expand...


Hold it, $27k Skylane and you want to be picky? Please, if the airframe is clean, and the engine runs, that's all you are paying for. You want a nice Skylane, they cost $60-80k+.
 
DJTorrente said:
I guess we know who the seller is... :lol::rofl::goofy:
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Nope. I'll have my 182 until my widow sells it. There are a few dozen things that a picky IA could find on my airplane right now, but THIS IA finds them inconsequential.

My instructions to her is to take any buyer that comes with a list like this to tell them to go to hell, the price is $XX and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

It is, by the way, pristine. And I'll sign the annual from my hospital bed.

Jim
 
If it's a proper annual, things should not be 'filthy' under the cowl. It should be being cleaned at each annual.

Oil filter should have marksall showing date and hours when changed. And you can look at the safety wire and kind of tell if it's newer or older.

Too many squawks, we take a walks....
 
Henning said:
No, There are so many plane buying threads, I don't keep track of them. :lol:

What wasn't mentioned in the OP on this thread is all the corrosion that was found. Lacking corrosion, I still feel the same as in the other thread, it's a fair deal as long as the engine is running.
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That's why I asked.
 
What AD's?

Offer to split cost of vacuum pump.

Buy plane.

Go fly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The question for the OP is,

How did you know all the ADs not complied with pertained to this 182?

Just because the ADs are not listed with the letters DNA by them?
 
Brad Z said:
I told you Danny is very thorough. There's a reason it's a $27k skylane. Did it have corrosion?
Click to expand...

I haven't seen the report yet only talked with my partner about it. I'll let you know when I see it but my partner said that the story about the filter was a bold faced lie that he (the other IA) tried to defend.
 
Tom-D said:
The question for the OP is,

How did you know all the ADs not complied with pertained to this 182?

Just because the ADs are not listed with the letters DNA by them?
Click to expand...

Inspector said that the logbook does not indicate applicable ADs were performed. So at minimum it's a record keeping issue. And it seems to me that the sellers patience might have run out, hence his insistence on "another buyer". There's always another buyer when you're trying to sell something.
 
Tom-D said:
Where did we get the 27k number?
Click to expand...

I told BradZ and indicated in the linked thread that was asking price.

FWIW- I'm not as dismissive as my partner but without him I may not do the deal either. He's been very willing to discuss things up to this point. I do give him a lot of leeway as an Airline A&P but by his own admission he knows very little about bugsmashers
 
BTW 60-70 range, is fine in compression. TCM used to go around with a presentation and in it the showed where an engine running with compressions around 40 was still making full rated power.

The question that is significant in compression leak down type tests s establishing where the leak is. If you stick your ear to the breather and hear the air escaping there, you're ok. If you hear it coming from the exhaust pipe, you're not ok, you need to deal with that. If it's coming out of a crack in the head/barrel area, you need to deal with that too. ;)
 
Jaybird180 said:
1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken
2- transponder (mode c) inop
3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with
4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5
5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)
6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week
7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual
Click to expand...

Explain #3, it's the only one that amounts to a hill of beans in regards to an annual being done last week. The rest is fluff.
 
MotoFlier said:
That is the exact though I had reading that. Dude is way to mad not to have some kind of involvement hahaha
Click to expand...


Actually Jim is an IA, is correct about what an "annual" is, and ...

Tom-D said:
The question for the OP is,



How did you know all the ADs not complied with pertained to this 182?



Just because the ADs are not listed with the letters DNA by them?
Click to expand...


Tom asks a good question...

Silvaire said:
Explain #3, it's the only one that amounts to a hill of beans in regards to an annual being done last week. The rest is fluff.
Click to expand...


As does Silvaire...

I'm not an A&P nor IA, but I'm having a really hard time believing any 182 could get to 42 missed ADs that flew legally in the last decade, without major malfeasance going on... Hell... I'm having a hard time thinking of 42 ADs that would apply to a single 182 sub-model. There just haven't been that many of them, really...

You'd have to have hit the jackpot on specific components on board their own ADs with them as baggage to get that many.

Something is fishy.

"Annual" doesn't mean "well maintained", it means "airworthy". Lots of first time buyers don't know, or forget that, when "annual" is used as a marketing term.

I couldn't give two ****s that something was "annualed yesterday" if I were buying it. What you want is a purchase inspection, and as Henning said, at less than $30K on a Skylane, I'd expect to get a report from a mechanic that it would be needing another $20-$30K in work done immediately or pretty soon. Stuff that wouldn't necessarily make it not airworthy, but would make it only worth < $30K.

Especially at the age of most Skylanes. These airplanes are older than most "classic collector cars" these days. They often need as much work as a 70's car would need today to get it back into shape.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm in the process (or was) of buying the Skylane that I previously lamented passing up. Long story on how I went back to possibly purchasing it which I may get to later.

Turns out that we couldn't get to a good pre sale demo flight.

1- the vacuum pump was broken, as in visually broken
2- transponder (mode c) inop
3- discovered a multitude of ADs not complied with
4- engine and prop at 1500hrs- may be a runout, see #5
5- compressions <70 (not convinced this is an issue on the Conti engine without knowing all the other numbers)
6- fourty two (42) items on our pre-buy inspection list for an airplane that was "annualled" last week
7- oil filter that obviously hasn't been changed yet a notation in logs that it was cut open at annual

So, we're walking away from the deal. Seller balked about "another buyer".
I've read on POA about these pencil whipped annuals, but is this problem really prevalent?
Click to expand...

My sense is that a true pencil whipping (which can be spotted) is less dangerous than a half-whipped annual where some things were done and some not. In other words, what constitutes an "annual" seems to differ dramatically from owner to owner (mechanic to mechanic). I would be concerned about an inop transponder if the owner hadn't flagged it. 3 & 7 would bother me but I'm a newb. 42 items on inspection list--par for the course! I had more.

Edit: I see the price is 27K. If that's the case then (as Henning says) you have two questions: airframe condition & engine. I bought my plane on those terms (clean airframe and good engine) and am still in a state of shock as to how much else can need repairing. In the end, everything will be okay with my plane, but it has been a bigger adventure than I expected. Your list is useful in that you can get estimates on what it will cost to get the plane into condition you want. And even a thorough pre-buy won't find it all. I can easily imagine the seller would prefer a buyer with more experience….
 
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The other buyer ,is probably asking less than asking price,may have made a lower offer ,as is. For 27 k for a 182, I wouldn't be to demanding.
 
frfly172 said:
The other buyer ,is probably asking less than asking price,may have made a lower offer ,as is. For 27 k for a 182, I wouldn't be to demanding.
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Except that if it needs an engine, then all of a sudden you're at $67k and the rest of it is still junk. You can buy a nice, well equipped 182 with a low or mid-time engine for less than that. Maybe not one of that late of vintage, but I'd far rather have an earlier, lighter, model anyway.

As we always say...cheap airplanes are seldom cheap.
 
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timwinters said:
Except that if it needs an engine, then all of a sudden you're at $67k and the rest of it is still junk. You can buy a nice, well equipped 182 with a low or mid-time engine for less than that. Maybe not one of that late of vintage, but I'd far rather have an earlier, lighter, model anyway.

As we always say...cheap airplanes are seldom cheap.
Click to expand...

You can also buy a mid time engine from a salvage yard to replace that one when it finally ****s the kitty. But yeah, there is no such thing as a cheap airplane. Like most things, it's a matter of what you can afford up front that determines end results.
 
Henning said:
Hold it, $27k Skylane and you want to be picky? Please, if the airframe is clean, and the engine runs, that's all you are paying for. You want a nice Skylane, they cost $60-80k+.
Click to expand...


:yeahthat:

27k is nothing for a 182, even if you addressed those snags is still seems like a OK deal.
 
Henning said:
You can also buy a mid time engine from a salvage yard to replace that one when it finally ****s the kitty. But yeah, there is no such thing as a cheap airplane. Like most things, it's a matter of what you can afford up front that determines end results.
Click to expand...


What does a vacuum pump cost?
 
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