Panel Envy Sux

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by 455 Bravo Uniform, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Seeing pics of other people's panels (they only post nice ones or bad ones they're redoing...).

    Tell me why my panel is good enough. Tell me what you don't like. Tell me to quit whining and be thankful (that's what I tell myself).

    I'm VFR only, for now. Old school IFR plane. Don't use the stormscope. No GPS in the panel (iPhone 6plus with FF). Cracked plastic. Ugly placards. Mismatched radios.

    IMG_3323.jpg

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  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    What do you want to do with it? I can’t tell, is it a 182? If everything works, it is a very capable IFR machine if you install an ifr GPS.

    You can do a lot with that panel as is with ForeFlight. You just can’t do GPS approaches.

    If you are going to do significant IFR, put a gps in it and fly.
     
  3. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Looks like a 182 with bladders. All that lift the wings before sumping tells that story. Wah happened to the GPS. There's a Garmin annunciater and a big ol' 430 size cover plate in the stack. Anyway, if everything works, yer good to go except for GPS. What's that 29.903.54 thingie?
     
  4. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    It's a 260se. 182 on roids
     
  5. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Take out everything you don't use, throw in a 430/430w, and the KX155 can stay and be your nav/com 2. I'd probably throw a GTX-345 and EDM-730 or something in, too. While it's torn apart, have a custom aluminum panel cut with everything placed so that it's esthetically and functionally pleasing. There's your budget-ish panel overhaul :D
     
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  6. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    First three are altimeter setting, although I have no idea why the last digit was dropped. The second three are altitude selection showing 3,500 feet in this case. The last digit is vertical speed, in this case 400 rpm. I figure that is some sort of autopilot control based on the switch in the picture below that one.
     
  7. Possum

    Possum Pre-takeoff checklist

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    When it comes to airplanes it really doesn't matter what the question is......... The answer is always .... Money$$$$$$$
     
  8. catmandu

    catmandu Cleared for Takeoff

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    You have more capability than 90% of the GA airplanes I flew prior to my (now) all glass experimental.

    I would use the stormscope, so that when you need the stormscope, you can use the stormscope, if you get my drift.

    Given that Garmin annunciator panel, I might figure out what wiring is left and take advantage of that to install a GPS to make your upcoming IFR training more efficient. Especially if you do an ADS-B install.
     
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  9. Ken Ibold

    Ken Ibold Final Approach

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    Nothing wrong with that panel that couldn't be solved by buying a different airplane.

    Seriously, for VFR work, it does fine. Never been a fan of posting checklist data on the panel, myself. I would remove the preflight stickers for fuel sumping. If they're required for an STC or something I'd find someplace less obtrusive to put them. Take out anything that doesn't work. Learn how to use it all. Learn the failure modes.

    If you want to go IFR, then for me it would be sufficient to drop in a 430 or 530 in place of the TKM.

    Or did you want ideas for going glass?
     
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  10. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

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    Stop bragging about your panel!
    Makes me feel more ashamed of mine.

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  11. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    I would get rid of the placards, they belong in a checklist.
     
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  12. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    [​IMG]

    Aww, I have a spot spot for these old configurations.

    Hey, if you're VFR only, you really don't need a lot... that's the truth of the matter. Also, avionics are almost worthless the second you install them. They cost a mint, yet hardly add to the value of the aircraft at all. It's alway seemed crazy to me, but it's true.

    Your panel actually has the framework of a pretty good IFR panel. An HSI is a really nice piece of equipment, something even my plane doesn't have until it gets its second G5 in March. And you don't use that Stormscope? I have the same WX-900, but it died last year and I'd like to replace it with a working-as-removed copy... want to sell yours?

    You can step into the 21st century a couple of ways.

    Plan A: Ultra budget

    Given that you already have an HSI and whatnot, the ultra-budget method is to buy an inexpensive non-WAAS IFR GPS such as the KLN-94, which I flew for many years and always felt was under-appreciated for its capabilities. You could get one of those for $2000-$2500, figure another $1.5k to install assuming the cables for the antenna are still present from the former GPS. Looks like you have the last generation "gold standard" HSI which is the King KCS-55A, and that will talk to the KLN-94, no problem. (Your old CDI probably won't, if you have to shift that to the KX-155... you could just leave it hooked up to your old TKM radio though.)

    Then, add one of the bargain basement ADS-B OUT solutions which piggyback on your existing transponder and have integrated WAAS. (I'd probably go with the GDL-82.) Build a Stratux for IN ($200 max) and your aircraft is transformed into /G, ADS-B OUT compliant.

    Downside: this has no legs for growth. This will kick the can down the road a ways, but none of these are ideal long-term solutions. You're basically going to be increasing the budget for X number of flying hours to get to the point you have to start replacing this stuff. King doesn't make the screens for the KLN-94 anymore; when it dies, you'll have to find another used one to replace it, or ditch it. The KCS-55A has always been an expensive instrument to maintain, so expensive in fact that at the first signs of needing an overhaul you'd be much better suited with replacing it with a G5 HSI. And these piggyback ADS-B Out solutions are a bit of a kludge. I considered going that route myself, but if your transponder is old and needs to be replaced anyway, well...

    Anyway, this turns your ship into a real, honest-to-goodness IFR platform that you can do some real work in. No LPV, but you can shoot GPS approaches, file /G for enroute, and enjoy the benefits of ADS-B Out (not to mention be compliant with the 2020 mandate.) I'd estimate the all-in costs at around $7500-$8500, maybe less if you're handy and your avionics tech will let you do some of the work.

    Plan B: Midlife Flyer

    Nowadays, it's hard to justify the installation costs of going cheap. If you're going to tear the panel apart, most owners seem to find it makes the most sense to just swallow the pain pill and be done with it all in one fell swoop. But how far do you go?

    The biggest bang for the buck improvements in safety and capability are, in my personal and very subjective opinion, all coming from Garmin these days. Garmin's current suite of low-cost offerings are designed to work together and give the panel room to grow as new technology is introduced.

    To that end, you could drop a pair of G5s into your panel, one for ADI, one for HSI, sell or trade-in your old KCS-55A for a nominal cost reduction on the installation, and assuming your AP is rate-based -- it looks like it is -- you can ditch your entire vacuum system in the process, using your existing turn coordinator, which I believe your AP is referencing, as your backup to the G5. Of course the G5 HSI is also a reversionary mode option for the G5 ADI so you'll have a backup there already, making your system triple redundant with no need to for vacuum at all. That's a BIG safety and reliability upgrade.

    You'll need a WAAS GPS. There are two ways to go in this Plan B category, either a Garmin 430W or a GTN 650. (I know there are other options here but given they don't play nicely with the G5s, I'm going to exclude them.) You can get a 430W for a little less than a 650... but not that much less. If it were my money, I'd go with the GTN 650 for the $2k-$3k delta in cost. That gets you into a current generation, completely badass WAAS Navigator that will go another 20-25 years into the future. The 430W is still popular but these things are getting reaaaallly long in the tooth and Garmin is sending end-of-life signals with upgrade/trade-in programs. So I'd be very hesitant to drop big bucks on a 430W at this point. Once the price drops below $5k they're a lot more attractive but that's still not the current market reality. Don't save a penny here to cost yourself a pound down the road, would be my advice. Just get the GTN.

    (Incidentally, this was exactly my decision tree in late 2016. I obviously selected the GTN 650... no regrets, it's an amazing device.)

    I'd keep the KX-155, still a nice radio, deep-six that old TKM, and replace the CDI which appears to be paired to the TKM with a KING KI-209 loc/GS CDI.

    This leaves ADS-B... the Ferrari of the bunch for most piston GA airplanes is the Garmin GTX345. It's an all-in-one IN/OUT integrated solution that is both UAT and ES, incudes AHRS, and sends the data via bluetooth to your iPad or Android tablet. It will also portray the traffic and weather on the GTN 650. It's pretty much the bomb. But you could save a few bucks and get a 330ES. No AHRS or bluetooth there, but you can add a Stratus or Stratux for your "IN". It's slightly clunkier, but works and you could save a couple grand going that route.

    You're looking at about $25k-$30k here.

    Plan C: Ultimate Beastmaster

    Easy, you're going to ditch everything and cut a whole new panel here. For PFD/MFD, Garmin TXi 10.6" display. You'll want a GTN750 with a GTN650 below it for Navigator #2. Remote a Garmin GMA350C audio panel and GTX345R to the GTN750 to clean up the amount of hardware in the panel. JPI EDM-900 engine monitor to replace your gauge cluster. Your mind can wander from here. This is a $60,000+ proposition, probably worth more than the entire airplane.

    From a financial perspective, none of it makes sense... it would probably be cheaper, technically, to sell the whole airplane and buy one with the stuff you want installed. But, that kind of solution doesn't always fit, either. We get accustomed to our airplanes, the way we've maintained them, and so on. It took me years to get my airplane mechanically where I wanted... I can't imagine starting that process all over now. So I just upgraded my airplane to enjoy it. If that sounds like you, then follow an upgrade path that makes sense for you. It's really not about getting money back out of it, it's about spending the right money for the right amount of satisfaction and capability for a given time period.
     
  13. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Except when they're required by an AD which may be the case here considering how many (supposed) issues Cessna has had with bladders and water.
     
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  14. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Your panel is not that much nicer than mine. As ktup says, throw in a 430w, keep the 155, and you're good. That's what I have, along with a GDL-39 and Foreflight. With this minimal panel updgrade you can go anywhere and do anything the fancy panel guys can do.
     
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  15. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Great input! Thanks for the responses so far, puts things really in perspective for me, which was the goal.

    182.

    It's got an STEC 60-2 autopilot, those are the baro, altitude, and vert speed settings.

    Stormscope - haven't yet and never fly near storms. Throws an error code once in a while. Will likely pull it sometime.

    Engine monitor - would love one.

    Yeah, I think that long bladder placard was due to some wrinkle assessment test in the AD after the new bladders were installed by the prior owner.

    After fixing stuff for the last 6 months, I could see living with what I have vs trading for another plane with whiz-bang glass.

    I think a nice crack free cover and low key placards will get me through...it's time for warmer flying weather so I can waste my time cleaning bugs rather than thinking about how to spend money I don't need to spend.
     
  16. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

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    That's the pepper! A clean panel will "feel" a lot nicer to sit behind.

    "Enjoy it as-is and go fly" is completely supportable final conclusion.

    Honestly, if you're after an instrument rating in that airplane, the skills you'll build learning in an airplane equipped the way yours is presently will put you ahead of the curve. People learning in SR-22s with the huge MFD and glass everywhere won't have your abilities.
     
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  17. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Looks like it would do basic IFR just fine to me, and certainly sufficient for VFR.
     
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  18. jimmyjack

    jimmyjack Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If you're a pilot, you're a privileged member of less than 1% of the population.

    If you're an aircraft owner, you're a privileged member of less than .1% of the population.

    (I made those numbers up, but we're probably even rarer than that).

    Never forget that. Every time I taxi onto a ramp full of jets, twins, newer planes I feel like a dork, a wannabe.

    But I'm considerably better off than everyone else I know. I can drive out to my *plane* and *fly* somewhere at my leisure.

    So.... your panel is fine. ;-)
     
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  19. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'm probably gonna DIY some new overlays out of fiberglass, still kicking around hydrodip carbon fiber print on them.

    I do have a long metal overlay on switches that I want replaced with a machined new one with machined text for placards.
     
  20. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes, even rarer. US pilots (including student pilots) make up about 0.18% of the US population. Just the fact that you have an airplane makes you a very special person. Would you like a cookie or a gold star Lol?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  21. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Also thought about cutting an a new overlay out of aluminum sheet and painting it McCauly prop flat black since I have a bunch of sherwin Williams Polane T on hand in that coloev
     
  22. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Certainly boring but hey it looks nice!
     
  23. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's got good bones, that's for sure. If I was on a serious budget, I'd find myself a cheap non-WAAS GPS to toss in there to make it /g. That's what I did with my Twin Bonanza. If you have a little patience and play your cards correctly, you can get a used GPS for $1k or so. I'd figure out what the model number of the Garmin annunciator/relay and see if you can figure out if it's still wired to the HSI. If it is, look for the Garmin GPS that matches it (it won't be a 430, likely a GNC300 or something similar). Your install will be a LOT easier if you can do it that way.
     
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  24. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nothing to be ashamed of there. Just as a general rule I'd turn it up to 4 and see if that selector could be upgraded to 11 on the cheap...
     
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  25. Glenn D

    Glenn D Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If it works, FLY it !... VFR so what are all those gages needed for??... I dream of 2-G5's, new radios, new panel overlay, all that stuff... but really, only need ADS-B out, and maybe a working 2nd radio installed... have an old working Kx-170b that may get put in... so why spend a bunch of AMU's when boring holes in the sky do not require it??.. I'm going to install every speed mod I can before fixing the inside of my plane... faster is funner, and my wife wants a Saratoga... that will be the answer to a panel upgrade.
     
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  26. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'm in the same boat with Glenn D. I'm VFR only now (Arizona clouds are usually not friendly), and FF with an iGadget covers a multitude of avionics sins. I'm happy with two working coms and at least one VOR, for the days when the feds trash the GPS signals (happens a lot around here). My 172N is a flying museum of avionics, the 21st Century represented only by an ADS-B transponder. One of the original 40-year-old KX175Bs just croaked, so a new, though fittingly low-tech, MX170C will slide in next week in its place. ADF still works, too.

    I figure it would cost about half the airplane's total value to do a proper "update" of the panel. Not interested.
     
  27. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    Round gauges and an IFR GPS and a VOR/GS do just fine. That plane suffers from a poor "design", panelwise. Not going to win any artistic awards....
     
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  28. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    @455 Bravo Uniform. I have a GNC300XL. It has been refurbished by Garmin. It has the harness. Not the whole harness but the plugin thingies are there with a few feet of wire. What was in your plane? If it was a 300 it would probably be a painless installation. The STC would already be there. If it was a 250 or something else it might get more complicated. I don't know if the annunciators are specific to model but what is in your plane looks exactly like mine. If they are different, I have the annunciator also. I'd guess the 'pins' and wiring are the same. I also have the antenna. Ask an avionics dude what he think it'd take to install it. If you're interested let me know. I'll give ya a good deal. All ya gotta do is promise to be on my side in all POA disputes
     
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  29. sardonux

    sardonux Pre-Flight

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    That alone is a great piece of kit. It also has room to grow with supported GPSS when you do decide to purchase a GPS unit. Other than that, your 182 has everything needed to fly where most 182s end up flying VFR. The view out the window is way better.
     
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  30. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Meet the Fokkers
    Here is a picture of my panel.



    yup...that's why I like yours.
     
  31. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Lol! I’ll take your side anyway :)

    I’ll need to go back to the logs to see what was removed. I really appreciate that.
     
  32. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    It was a GPS155, antenna (GA-56?) and MD41-424 GPS ACU (?), all removed.
     
  33. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    HSI, autopilot. good to go!
     
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  34. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    The panel doesn't make the pilot! (Yeah I just made that up)

    One could have the best looking panel in the world and still suck as a pilot.
     
  35. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    The OPs panel is either too dark or too grainy and washed out.
     
  36. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I just cut the check this afternoon for IFD540 and AXP340.

    I coulda bought a nice used car, a 15kW home generator (installed), or a nice luxurious cruise with the family. WTF is wrong with us?
     
  37. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I don’t know, but I hate you now.
     
  38. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

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    It’s a disease and this is our support group
     
  39. Stephen Shore

    Stephen Shore Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here is my panel in my 1981 Beech Sundowner. Nothing special, but I do have a Garmin 420 WAAS. The 420 does not have a NAV radio in it (the reason for my two NAV radios).

    No AP but a good basic panel. I fly this airplane in IMC and of course with the 420W I can fly precision approaches (by hand of course).

    I bought this airplane 1-1/2 years ago for less than $40K with that panel in it. I did, however, add the Garmin GTX 335 in order to get my ADSB out of the way.

    I have sure had alot of fun with it.

    [​IMG]
     
  40. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'm getting pretty close to finishing the latest 182 mods.

    Machined circuit breaker panel came out great.
     

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