Overweight?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by updraft, May 26, 2019.

  1. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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    My other pilot can make this trip non-stop! So, I’m new to this outfit, do I go along to get along, do I take off knowing that I’m overweight or do I tell my owner that his plane cannot legally make this trip without stopping for fuel?
     
  2. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

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    Are you really asking if it is okay to break the law and violate a basic safety protocol?

    If you don’t know the answer, then you should not be a PIC.
     
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  3. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  4. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Tell your owner to buy a jet.
     
  5. FORANE

    FORANE Pattern Altitude

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    Sounds like it is time to go on a diet.
     
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  6. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    A Citation can go anywhere nonstop...at least, that’s what the owner said about his airplane that took off something like 800 pounds over gross to do it.

    Having a jet just means you get to the fuel stop faster.
     
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  7. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You probably shouldn't stand on the tail of your new SF50 Vision. Just sayin.'
     
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  8. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    Technically, it's only a regulation, not a law. But the FAA does care, but they only check if they are investigating a smoking hole.
     
  9. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ever heard of pocket gas.??
     
  10. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks Don! No, I’m actually probing the community for better responses than what I came up with ...... “better get your other pilot to fly this trip”
     
  11. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks Gruber! It is a (light) jet! With 6 pax seats and 2 crew seats! Someone (identity withheld to protect the guilty) suggested they buy a midsize jet recently but the owner didn’t want the added operating expense. Now same someone wants their pilot to fly a nonstop flight to a overwater international destination with limited alternates or options with 2 crew and 4 pax carrying vacation luggage.
     
  12. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Lots of light jets can take off way overweight.
    The biggest problem is what happens when you lose one right after V1?
    All bets on continuing safely may have been effectively eliminated by your choice on the ramp a few minutes before.
    Time to pull on the big boy pants. Can be difficult to tell the owner without throwing the other pilot under the bus. Have the books out and a sample W&B to explain this all to him.
    The times you really earn your paycheck, as a paid pilot, are the times you have to say No to the boss. He may never appreciate all the times you did this and saved his butt.
     
  13. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’m overweight and I still fly. What’s the issue?
     
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  14. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    450 lbs?
     
  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That’s not overweight. That’s yuge!
     
  16. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Some people carry their weight as fuel in the tank. Some carry it around their waist.
     
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  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Unfortunately, lots of jets also take off within the certified max takeoff weight, and even within the “maximum weight to achieve climb requirements”, but still don’t have safe options if an engine quits after V1.
     
  18. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    If you’re effecting the flight range of a jet by being overweight, then you are seriously overweight. If you weigh 200 pounds more than the other pilot, that’s about what, 10 - 12 minutes in a light jet?
     
  19. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks LGF! When I posted this I never figured that I would have to defend myself or suppress my ego to keep my responses in check. Your argument is exactly the same as mine, the non-pilot owner is depending on his captain to make the “safest” decisions and the intention of getting there non-stop would not matter if we crashed on departure due to an engine failure because we were overweight. There is no way to educate the owner without implicating the senior “someone” who has been getting by this way for years. My only choice here is to walk away and look for another gig. I’m still hoping to find a creative way to say “I’m fired”
     
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  20. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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  21. updraft

    updraft Filing Flight Plan

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    Wow, this tread turned into a goat rope!
    It’s no wonder politicians can’t agree on anything! Everyone has their own agenda .... lemme see, since this thread started 1) My competency to act as PIC is in question 2) I must have slept through 9 years of training at Flight Safety on this aircraft 3) I don’t know the diff between law and regulation 4) I have never considered calculation of 1st, 2nd or 3rd segment climb gradients 5) I must be as arrogant as an owner pilot 6) I must be wearing little boy pants 7) The best one is that I weigh 450 pounds naked. Ha ha, the list goes on ........ the original question was “take the job knowing it’s messed up or find a way to say no without making everyone think that you are just another disgruntled ex-employee out to make the ex-boss look bad?” I had already decided not to take the job, I just wanted your opinions on how to fire my employer.
     
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  22. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    Welcome to POA, where molehills are turned into Mt. Everest. :D
     
  23. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    It's Sunday. Bunch of the crew were off drinking beer and watching the Indy 500. You got off lightly. :D
     
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  24. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    Goat rope or goat rape? :D
     
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  25. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    In your original post you didn’t ask opinions on how to fire your employer...you asked if you should take off overweight. There’s a big difference.
     
  26. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Cleared for Takeoff

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  27. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Busting limitations probably won’t end well.
     
  28. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

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    I love it. New guy is getting goat roped for saying goat roped. I lurked long before I offered my first post.

    OP, keep your resume sharp, everyone is hiring.
     
  29. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

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    There was a "Flying: article in which two pilots were discussing the airlines policy to take off with less than max power and the older pilot asked the new pilot what he would tell the crash investigator about his decision. I think that is a good question to think about before making iffy decisions.
     
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  30. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    I would like to see that article. We do reduced thrust takeoffs all the time. The crash investigator will give the pilots no more than a passing glance if the airplane was operated within FAA approved guidelines.
     
  31. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    I "think" it is some Gulfstream model that has to take off at least once a month at full power. The pilots always liked that flight. Any G# typed pilots here?
     
  32. alfadog

    alfadog En-Route

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    https://flightsafety.org/asw-article/when-less-is-more/
     
  33. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Yep - this is a definitely a great time to have to deal with idiot owners that expect pilots to bend the rules. Especially in the light to midsize segment of the market, where owners/operators haven't quite figured out that $100K isn't going to keep anyone around anymore.
     
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  34. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    Not to pick nits, but 'I'm looking for opinions on how to tell the owner I won't take the gig without looking like a crybaby and without throwing the other pilot under the bus' is going get you entirely different responses than 'do I take off knowing I'm overweight or do I tell my owner that his plane cannot legally make this trip without stopping for fuel?'

    Welcome to the forum, I hope you hang around. But maybe ask the question you actually want the answer to next time.
     
  35. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

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    Me; “Okay, here is our flight plan. Looks like we will need to stop at XYZ airport for fuel.”

    Owner; “We never have to stop for fuel when Joe Pilot flies the plane. Why can’t you?”

    Me; “I don’t know what the weight was nor the weather conditions for his flights, so I can’t comment on that. As for today’s flight, we are carrying xxxx lbs in passengers and baggage. This means we can carry at most xxxx gallons of fuel in order to avoid exceeding the maximum take off weight legally allowed for the plane. Based upon the expected winds aloft, we would need at least xxx gallons of fuel to meet the minimum legal planned reserves at landing. Therefore, to stay legal and safe, we need to stop for fuel.”

    Owner; “I don’t want to hear about all the technical stuff, I just need you to make it happen.”

    Me; “I will not compromise safety or legality. If you want me to make this trip, we will stop for fuel. If that is not acceptable, then you will need to find another pilot. What would you like to do?”

    Owner: Begins a tirade with a stream of profanities.

    Me: Walks out the door without saying a word, and heads out for some tasty BBQ with coleslaw.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  36. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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  37. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    There was a story a while back about a Lear that was hauling parts for a "just in time" Detroit manufacturer. They loaded 2000 KILOS instead of 2000 pounds, and the pilot thought the airplane a little sluggish.
     
  38. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Line Up and Wait

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    I'd rather get fired for not breaking the rules then to get fired for doing something illegal. Much easier to explain in a job interview
     
  39. Fiveslide

    Fiveslide Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This is when a voice recorder on your smart phone is worth its weight in unobtainium. If that boss gives you a bad reference in the future for a job at a proper aviation employer, play it.

    Voice recorder, one the first things I download when I get a new phone.
     
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  40. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I spend lots of money to make my plane lighter so I don't have to spend a little money to make me lighter :D
     
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