Out of control cops or out of control preg. woman?

OH my! Im thinking that could have been handled a bit better.
 
I'm not going to criticize the cops, the volume on the PC im at is crappy, but i Heard warnings of 'get on the ground or you'll get tazed' being pregnant doesn't give you a free pass to be aggressive and expect no repercussions... Without knowing what happened in the minutes before the video started there is no way of knowing who was in the right/wrong/indifferent.
 
VanDy said:
I'm not going to criticize the cops, the volume on the PC im at is crappy, but i Heard warnings of 'get on the ground or you'll get tazed' being pregnant doesn't give you a free pass to be aggressive and expect no repercussions... Without knowing what happened in the minutes before the video started there is no way of knowing who was in the right/wrong/indifferent.
Click to expand...


The police say she tugged on the cops shirt....
 
There was no reason to taze her. None...She was not a threat,even if she was a threat 2 mins before the threat was gone.

This shows that our police need more training...

This is a training issue...
 
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1600vw said:
I agree why not just say..Turn around you are under arrest and put the cuffs on.
Click to expand...

They did. You do understand that there are some people who simply refuse to cooperate and choose to resist,right?
There's a whole lot that happened before the video started.

The problem is that it is nearly impossible to arrest someone who actively does not want to be arrested, without causing injury. People that have never done it don't realize how incredibly hard it is if your goal is to avoid major injury.
A Taser is a tool to gain compliance, while avoiding risks of musculoskeletal injury from forcibly putting one's arms into thehandcuffing position.
 
PilotAlan said:
A Taser is a tool to gain compliance, while avoiding risks of musculoskeletal injury from forcibly putting one's arms into thehandcuffing position.
Click to expand...

A Taser is not without risk....
 
wsuffa said:
A Taser is not without risk....
Click to expand...

And taser's don't always work. With people with more body fat, and if there are multiple layers or thicker clothes, the probes don't make contact. Every person I have tased or seen tased was either fighting or attempting to run away from us.
 
Actually she was in NYC and had a 32 oz drink and the Police Officers did get the memo the law was struck down by the Court. :yes:

Cheers
 
I was going to ask what this couple could have possibly done to warrant the presence of four police cruisers. The woman might have been atrociously stupid and in the wrong, but officers are not supposed to escalate situations if there is an alternative. They are supposed to be professional. What I saw on that video was anything but.
 
steingar said:
I was going to ask what this couple could have possibly done to warrant the presence of four police cruisers. The woman might have been atrociously stupid and in the wrong, but officers are not supposed to escalate situations if there is an alternative. They are supposed to be professional. What I saw on that video was anything but.
Click to expand...

Ok. The cops are stupid, aggressive guys who really just couldn't wait to escalate the situation and beat up some innocent pregnant lady.

For God's sake, do you guys not see that you are treating them the exact same way the public judges pilots and GA without any knowledge of what they are talking about?

Is it possible, just POSSIBLE, that maybe there's a lot more to this than you know, and that maybe, just maybe, it's impossible to arrest a resisting subject in a neat and pretty manner?
That maybe, MAYBE, cops generally don't want to get into a fight any more than anyone else?

If this was the comments section of a newspaper, with people making equivalent comments on a story involving a GA incident, the reaction from the POA crowd would be much different.
 
steingar said:
I was going to ask what this couple could have possibly done to warrant the presence of four police cruisers. The woman might have been atrociously stupid and in the wrong, but officers are not supposed to escalate situations if there is an alternative. They are supposed to be professional. What I saw on that video was anything but.
Click to expand...

We just another episode of, "How Freaking Stupid Are You?" in florida. A mother called the police because her son indicated he felt like killing himself.

A fleet of officers responded to protect him from injuring himself, and SHOT Him because he ran out his back door to avoid being locked in the loony bin.

Because they were so "well trained" they killed a man making sure he never got a chance to possibly, maybe, you never know, could have, hurt himself, someday.

Then their azzhole chief claims the officers might have felt unsure if he would hurt them, running out his back door.

Welcome to police who are as incapable of adult decision making as teachers and school administrators.
 
PilotAlan said:
They did. You do understand that there are some people who simply refuse to cooperate and choose to resist,right?
There's a whole lot that happened before the video started.

The problem is that it is nearly impossible to arrest someone who actively does not want to be arrested, without causing injury. People that have never done it don't realize how incredibly hard it is if your goal is to avoid major injury.
A Taser is a tool to gain compliance, while avoiding risks of musculoskeletal injury from forcibly putting one's arms into thehandcuffing position.
Click to expand...

IIRC Tasers were sold to the public as a tool to use "instead of shooting someone" not "to gain compliance" but I guess that's what they're used for today, I'm not a fan.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...=print_display&article_id=2574&issue_id=12012

The last point leads us to another very important detail: Officers and departments must be aware of developing case law. To protect itself and its officers, an agency must maintain vigilance and keep current with the rapidly developing body of case law in the area of ECDs and excessive use-of-force claims. As this case law evolves, departments should provide regular bulletin updates and training sessions for their officers, in an effort to provide guidance for the use of ECDs. It is imperative for every agency to continually update its use of force and ECD policies. When reviewing current policies, agencies must make certain that these policies include the following guidelines that were highlighted in the Mattos case:

  • Each and every application of an ECD must be legally justified.
  • When using an ECD in drive-stun mode to gain compliance from a suspect who is “actively resisting” arrest, the officer must give the suspect reasonable opportunity to comply with the officer’s commands prior to each ECD application. Specifically, as discussed in Mattos, the officer
    • must perceive that the suspect is “actively resisting”;
    • must be certain that the suspect is capable of compliance with the officer’s commands;
    • must give a warning prior to each application of the ECD;
    • must give the suspect time to recover from the “extreme pain” experienced during the ECD application;
    • must give the suspect a reasonable amount of time to regroup; and
    • must give the suspect a reasonable opportunity to consider the consequences of refusal to comply with commands before each ECD application.
  • Officers may not use an ECD on a visibly pregnant woman (or one who informs the officer of her pregnancy) unless deadly force is the only other option. These same restrictions would apply to children and the elderly.
  • The reporting requirements contained in the policy must provide that an officer is required to include in a report specific information indicating that all of these guidelines were followed prior to the application of an ECD.
Click to expand...
Cop was out of line.
 
wsuffa said:
A Taser is not without risk....
Click to expand...

Neither is the physical struggle to handcuff an unwilling subject.

I would think as an aviator you would understand there is no such thing as no risk, only mitigated and selected risk.
 
Sorry coppies you no longer have the default moral high ground. America knows you for the useless thugs you are, go shoot a puppy. And spare us the 'when you need a cop' nonsense your courts have ruled and you guys well understand you have no duty to protect the public. Thugs shaking down the peasants for the king, is all you are.
 
1600vw said:
The police say she tugged on the cops shirt....
Click to expand...

Don't tug on the policeman's shirt,
Don't spit into the wind,
Don't pull the mask on the old lone ranger,
 
This is called a " Power Trip ". To be arrested today you are thrown on the ground and cuffed. Its a power deal. All cops know this, so do the public, the educated ones anyway.

She never needed to be treated like this. She had no weapon. She was standing with her mouth running. That does not give him the right to do this to her. Maybe she was wrong but he used way more force then she was dishing out.

Lack of training or these cop's do not have the skills nor mind set to hold the postion they do.
 
PilotAlan said:
Ok. The cops are stupid, aggressive guys who really just couldn't wait to escalate the situation and beat up some innocent pregnant lady.

For God's sake, do you guys not see that you are treating them the exact same way the public judges pilots and GA without any knowledge of what they are talking about?

Is it possible, just POSSIBLE, that maybe there's a lot more to this than you know, and that maybe, just maybe, it's impossible to arrest a resisting subject in a neat and pretty manner?
That maybe, MAYBE, cops generally don't want to get into a fight any more than anyone else?

If this was the comments section of a newspaper, with people making equivalent comments on a story involving a GA incident, the reaction from the POA crowd would be much different.
Click to expand...

Join me in giving up?

If you are determined to hate someone nothing will change it
 
Oh an I didn't see anything out of line either, would you guys have rather she been dropped on her stomach? That looks to have been the only other option given her resistance.

As to the reason for the arrest or the resistance, who knows?
 
PilotAlan said:
Ok. The cops are stupid, aggressive guys who really just couldn't wait to escalate the situation and beat up some innocent pregnant lady.
Click to expand...

Forgive me, but that looks exactly the case from the video posted. Admittedly, videos can lie, which is why I asked for some degree of clarification.

PilotAlan said:
For God's sake, do you guys not see that you are treating them the exact same way the public judges pilots and GA without any knowledge of what they are talking about?
Click to expand...

Were this couple suspected in a string of grisly murders I would say their treatment was appropriate. If they were laundering money for Al Queda's western affiliates I would tell the cops to go for it. I find it hard to believe that they committed such heinous crimes in the parking lot of a Best Buy.

PilotAlan said:
Is it possible, just POSSIBLE, that maybe there's a lot more to this than you know, and that maybe, just maybe, it's impossible to arrest a resisting subject in a neat and pretty manner?
That maybe, MAYBE, cops generally don't want to get into a fight any more than anyone else?
Click to expand...

So what was this woman going to do exactly? Was she going to run away pregnant out the wazoo? Did she have some sort of weapon that would make her a threat? No and no.

PilotAlan said:
If this was the comments section of a newspaper, with people making equivalent comments on a story involving a GA incident, the reaction from the POA crowd would be much different.
Click to expand...

Actually, our comments are usually far more scathing than the public's. Nonetheless, mindlessly jumping to the defense of authority is no better than mindlessly criticizing it. Probably why I asked what the couple had done to warrant such a response.

I do find it far easier to believe the authorities over reacted than the couple was involved in some grisly crime or high conspiracy.
 
steingar said:
.

I do find it far easier to believe the authorities over reacted than the couple was involved in some grisly crime or high conspiracy.
Click to expand...

what does the nature of the crime have to do with it? Shouldn't the compliance of the suspect be more of a determining factor of the force used? She was asked to lie on the ground, and didn't. 1 officer in between 2 cars with 2 adult ages people in close proximity that are not listening or even co-operating, its an escalation battle at this point. The second cop that arrived also told her to lay down and tried to remove her from the confined space before tasing her. not to mention (speculation on my part, right now) that the police officers had no idea what was or wasn't inside the car, but the two suspects (or whatever you want to call them) did.
 
The woman was asked to comply, she chose not to comply.

Our law enforcement officers need to be shown more respect


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
VanDy said:
what does the nature of the crime have to do with it? Shouldn't the compliance of the suspect be more of a determining factor of the force used? She was asked to lie on the ground, and didn't.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing. Most of us don't deal with police on a day-to-day basis. If Police aggressively tried to arrest me in the parking lot of Best Buy, I might not follow their instructions instantaneously, especially if I wasn't clear exactly why I was being arrested.

VanDy said:
1 officer in between 2 cars with 2 adult ages people in close proximity that are not listening or even co-operating, its an escalation battle at this point. The second cop that arrived also told her to lay down and tried to remove her from the confined space before tasing her.
Click to expand...

One isn't supposed to tazer pregnant women, at least not according to the manufacturer.

VanDy said:
not to mention (speculation on my part, right now) that the police officers had no idea what was or wasn't inside the car, but the two suspects (or whatever you want to call them) did.
Click to expand...

Which is why I (reasonably, I think) ask what the couple was being arrested for. I can't fault the officers for keeping their own personal safety in high regard. But to treat every last arrest like you were taking down Jesse James himself seems a bit harsh. There is a middle ground that's inhabited by professional police all over the country who don't wind up on Youtube videos because they don't engage in idiotic unprofessional behavior like that shown in the video.
 
Zhunter said:
The woman was asked to comply, she chose not to comply.

Our law enforcement officers need to be shown more respect


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Respect is earned. Wearing a badge isn't enough in my book to earn it.
 
steingar said:
Here's the thing. Most of us don't deal with police on a day-to-day basis. If Police aggressively tried to arrest me in the parking lot of Best Buy, I might not follow their instructions instantaneously, especially if I wasn't clear exactly why I was being arrested.



One isn't supposed to tazer pregnant women, at least not according to the manufacturer.



Which is why I (reasonably, I think) ask what the couple was being arrested for. I can't fault the officers for keeping their own personal safety in high regard. But to treat every last arrest like you were taking down Jesse James himself seems a bit harsh. There is a middle ground that's inhabited by professional police all over the country who don't wind up on Youtube videos because they don't engage in idiotic unprofessional behavior like that shown in the video.
Click to expand...

I believe the world is ending. You and I agree on something.
 
Zhunter said:
The woman was asked to comply, she chose not to comply.

Our law enforcement officers need to be shown more respect


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


She said she was Preg. I do not believe I hear her so no I will not be arrested, just please do not put me on the ground for I am preg.

I have a bone disease. If I let a cop put me on the ground then put their knee in my back it will break my back. We all know once you go down a knee is going in your back.

Watch cops you see it all the time.

So this lady is a threat. If this lady was a threat to any of those cops those cops where " ******* " They could have handled this better. No if she had a weapon..ok...But a Preg. lady who you can tell is atleast 8 months along is no threat.

Maybe to a young child whom can no handle themself's.

Again I say its a training issue.
 
1600vw said:
She said she was Preg. I do not believe I hear her so no I will not be arrested, just please do not put me on the ground for I am preg.

I have a bone disease. If I let a cop put me on the ground then put their knee in my back it will break my back. We all know once you go down a knee is going in your back.

Watch cops you see it all the time.

So this lady is a threat. If this lady was a threat to any of those cops those cops where " ******* " They could have handled this better. No if she had a weapon..ok...But a Preg. lady who you can tell is atleast 8 months along is no threat.

Maybe to a young child whom can no handle themself's.

Again I say its a training issue.
Click to expand...
It is not a training issue it is a cop culture issue, training will not fix it.
 
1600vw said:
She said she was Preg. I do not believe I hear her so no I will not be arrested, just please do not put me on the ground for I am preg.

I have a bone disease. If I let a cop put me on the ground then put their knee in my back it will break my back. We all know once you go down a knee is going in your back.

Watch cops you see it all the time.

So this lady is a threat. If this lady was a threat to any of those cops those cops where " ******* " They could have handled this better. No if she had a weapon..ok...But a Preg. lady who you can tell is atleast 8 months along is no threat.

Maybe to a young child whom can no handle themself's.

Again I say its a training issue.
Click to expand...

So cooperate, no knees required:dunno:
 
so.. they were being aggressive and confrontational...
from :

http://www.foxillinois.com/news/local/Pregnant-Woman-Tased-By-Police-201247611.html

Video of a pregnant woman being tased and arrested has been viewed more than 10-thousand times on YouTube. It was captured and posted by a witness. It shows the arrest of Lucinda White and Frederic Thomas, not what led up to it.



That information is detailed in the police report. According to the report, officers told Frederic Thomas multiple times to stop yelling and cursing, then to stop resisting when the officer tried to arrest him.



Thomas and the cop wrestled for several minutes while the woman with Thomas, Lucinda White, pulled on the officer.



Eventually, a second officer showed up after a call for help. Both officers told White, who is eight months pregnant, and Thomas to stop resisting or they would be tased.



"He forced me to the ground, made me lay on my stomach," White told ABC News Channel 20. "Are you serious? I'm pregnant. Next thing I see is this yellow gun."



Both White and Thomas were tased, wrestled to the ground and arrested.





Deputy police chief Cliff Buscher says, "The video actually mirrors the reports they turned in before we knew about the video. Everything I've seen and read so far, they followed policy, they haven't been outside of our policies at all. We're still doing an internal review on it, but at this point, it looks like they did everything they should have."
 
VanDy said:
so.. they were being aggressive and confrontational...
from :

http://www.foxillinois.com/news/local/Pregnant-Woman-Tased-By-Police-201247611.html

Video of a pregnant woman being tased and arrested has been viewed more than 10-thousand times on YouTube. It was captured and posted by a witness. It shows the arrest of Lucinda White and Frederic Thomas, not what led up to it.



That information is detailed in the police report. According to the report, officers told Frederic Thomas multiple times to stop yelling and cursing, then to stop resisting when the officer tried to arrest him.



Thomas and the cop wrestled for several minutes while the woman with Thomas, Lucinda White, pulled on the officer.



Eventually, a second officer showed up after a call for help. Both officers told White, who is eight months pregnant, and Thomas to stop resisting or they would be tased.



"He forced me to the ground, made me lay on my stomach," White told ABC News Channel 20. "Are you serious? I'm pregnant. Next thing I see is this yellow gun."



Both White and Thomas were tased, wrestled to the ground and arrested.





Deputy police chief Cliff Buscher says, "The video actually mirrors the reports they turned in before we knew about the video. Everything I've seen and read so far, they followed policy, they haven't been outside of our policies at all. We're still doing an internal review on it, but at this point, it looks like they did everything they should have."
Click to expand...


Are you trying to justify one by the other......Really you want to go thier...?
 
PilotAlan said:
Neither is the physical struggle to handcuff an unwilling subject.
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Concur.

I would think as an aviator you would understand there is no such thing as no risk, only mitigated and selected risk.
Click to expand...

Also concur. I made no statement as to the relative amounts of risk from each of the choices (and not being there, I don't know whether there were other choices that had different risks, though I assume there was the option to let the person go and the option to discharge a firearm, each of which may also have risks).

My point - and my only point - was that Tasering is not a risk-free option when compared to physical contact. I pass no judgement on what the relative risks were in this situation. The first read of your statement seemed to convey an opinion that the taser is not risky.
 
Skylane81E said:
So cooperate, no knees required:dunno:
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Really..I was flying a little 6 gram rc airplane across the street from my house sitting on the side walk.

I had just been released from the hospital with a broken back and was trying to forget my life and fly this little plane.

All of a sudden I had 7 of these cop cars surround me. I thought I was going to be beat.

I was told to go home and not to leave my yard or I was going to jail.

I wrote letters to not only thier boss but to my Dick Durbin showing the little airplane sitting on a coffee cup. I asked if this is how all the police act.

I never heard back.

I moved..........
 
By Odin, all that over a parking lot fender bender! Do they haul off and shoot you for shoplifting?
 
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