Operating with Discrepancies

[Tom-D]

I can see how you don't feel like doing any more annuals. But even though I am a mere youngster at 63, I just don't want to have to turn wrenches on my plane any more. I hate it when I strip a screw and now I need an extractor. Or I drop a screw down in an inaccessible area and I have to figure out how to get it out. Or any one of a million other reasons when I get halfway into a project and I have to run to a parts store to get another part, or to exchange the last part I bought because it was the wrong one. I just don't want to do that any more and I don't think doing that will make me better at anything else, except may being a mechanic, which I don't want to be.

I'm glad you are slowing down to a speed you feel more comfortable with and only doing the things you want to do. But so am I, and turning wrenches and screw drivers isn't one of them. I don't care if you and Ben think I am a lesser human being for that, but I would rather fly the airplane and pay a competent mechanic to work on it, than to work on it myself. After all, I'm not Henning.

Every one has their comfort level. Right now I have a clipper apart, about half way done recovering it, thank God the owner is not in a hurry. and a C-90-12F on the build stand getting ready for assembly when the case and a few other parts get here.
Plus the new shop floor was poured Tuesday, and the building is here already, so yeah, I'm up to my butt in alligators and no time to drain the swamp.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Why do pilots/owners fly with discrepancies until annual inspection time, why don't they get the aircraft repaired as they break.
Early this morning I get a call, Guy wants an annual, he says he has a list of gripes he wants fixed, I tell him NO I'm busy at home and he gets pizzedoff and starts cussing, I just hung up.

Tell him that if he can document compliance with 91.213, you'll think about it.

 

[yetti]

Tom,
I have a few cowl screws that need to be replaced. It isn't urgent. should I fly my plane to the shop and leave it for a day or so then go back to pick it up? Or can it wait till annual. Same with the overhead light. And the cowl flap knob that is stiff to push. Should I make a separate flight for each little squawk when I know an annual is coming up.

All owner maintenance items. You could fix them in the time it took you to write posts on the internet or fly to the A&P. It would make you feel better than flying around with a stripped screw that your A&P left in the rocker cover. Or the buggered threads that the A&P put on the elbow on the oil cooler by putting a wrench on the wrong end. Or the wrong size cotter pins in the gas caps or the wheel nuts.

 

[mkosmo]

Ever stop to think that repairing these little things take time and parts, which may not be on the shelf? in the mean time your aircraft sets on the shop floor that could be used to do other jobs?

I suppose I assumed he wasn't expecting them to be done right then and there. When I've brought discrepancies up to my mechanic, I assume there may be some lead time if parts need to be ordered beyond fitting it in the shop schedule. Granted, my mechanic is on field and will tow the aircraft over when working on it and tows it back when not working on it.

 

[Tom-D]

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v04 ac equip & auth/chapter 04/04_004_002_files/image001.jpg

 

[bnt83]

all because that is what most schools and CFIs flying their aircraft for hire do. Owners see that happening and try to mimic.
Then when and if they get ramped they can't understand why their aircraft gets a notice.

Airlines do it. Charter operators do it. Private (91) operators do it.

It saves time and money combining these things with scheduled maintenance.

How?

Take a repair staton or dealer. Every time that airplane goes in it requires someone to open a work order. Then when the airplane arrives it must be towed in the hangar, a cya preliminary inspenction for hangar rash is usually done. Access must be gained by removing interior components, cowling etc. If you're lucky no access is required. Then when all that is reassembled disturbed items need to be function tested. The shop then might have a delivery checklist of some sort. The log entries completed and the airplane leaves.

Why not fix ________ when all the above work must be completed anyway during a scheduled event?

Not to mention some aircraft burn a ton of fuel every time then need to relocate for maintenance.

 

[Stewartb]

I know several air taxi operators and none lets maintenance items accumulate. What a silly notion. It's equally silly for a privateer. I demand excellence in my equipment and I maintain it to that standard. Excellence for every flight, not just following an annual. It seems to be a theme on this site to strive for mediocrity. The good thing about that is it's easy to recognize so those airplanes are easy to avoid.

 

[Tom-D]

How many believe that a rule requiring that discrepancies be repaired at the first opportunity would increase safety?

 

[JOhnH]

All owner maintenance items. You could fix them in the time it took you to write posts on the internet or fly to the A&P. It would make you feel better than flying around with a stripped screw that your A&P left in the rocker cover. Or the buggered threads that the A&P put on the elbow on the oil cooler by putting a wrench on the wrong end. Or the wrong size cotter pins in the gas caps or the wheel nuts.

You are right of course, except for the part about how much time it would take me to fix it.
And all of those examples you gave are much more likely to happen if I do the work rather than pay to have a professional do the work.

 

[Tom-D]

Airlines do it. Charter operators do it. Private (91) operators do it.

Would you want the private operators under part 91 to be on the same maintenance program as the part 121/135 operators are ?

 

[JOhnH]

Every one has their comfort level. Right now I have a clipper apart, about half way done recovering it, thank God the owner is not in a hurry. and a C-90-12F on the build stand getting ready for assembly when the case and a few other parts get here.
Plus the new shop floor was poured Tuesday, and the building is here already, so yeah, I'm up to my butt in alligators and no time to drain the swamp.

I've changed my mind and I apologize for criticizing you at first. I see your point completely.

But I would still rather pay a professional to fix my plane than to attempt to bugger it up myself. And if my A&P is too busy to fix it, and I can't wait, I will use someone else I trust.

 

[Tom-D]

I've changed my mind and I apologize for criticizing you at first. I see your point completely.

But I would still rather pay a professional to fix my plane than to attempt to bugger it up myself. And if my A&P is too busy to fix it, and I can't wait, I will use someone else I trust.

Miss understanding my rants is not a fault.

 

[TUPilot]

Airlines do it. Charter operators do it. Private (91) operators do it.

It saves time and money combining these things with scheduled maintenance.

Yup, anytime you are operating an airplane for money you need to weigh the cost of taking it out of service versus what operational impact it has. Hence the creation of MELs/CDLs etc. Granted, there are some things that need to be resolved immediately, but if we cancel a charter to do non-essential work on the plane we don't just lose revenue--we may lose a customer that depends on us for reliable service.

That said, the equation is different on privately owned airplanes in some cases. Nonetheless, it sounds like the problem here has to do with an airplane owner who backed himself into a corner and is looking for someone else to blame. His attitude is more of a problem than the basic concept of operating with discrepancies. Done right, it works. Done wrong, its expensive and dangerous.

Personally, I don't need to roll my plane into the shop for every little thing; however, I always touch base with my mechanic one to two months BEFORE the annual is due to discuss a plan of action that will work with HIS schedule and allows us to have parts on hand. It works well because both of us are able to block out time well in advance. A good relationship with your mechanic is important, and this works for us!

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Airlines do it. Charter operators do it. Private (91) operators do it.

It saves time and money combining these things with scheduled maintenance.

How?

Take a repair staton or dealer. Every time that airplane goes in it requires someone to open a work order. Then when the airplane arrives it must be towed in the hangar, a cya preliminary inspenction for hangar rash is usually done. Access must be gained by removing interior components, cowling etc. If you're lucky no access is required. Then when all that is reassembled disturbed items need to be function tested. The shop then might have a delivery checklist of some sort. The log entries completed and the airplane leaves.

Why not fix ________ when all the above work must be completed anyway during a scheduled event?

Not to mention some aircraft burn a ton of fuel every time then need to relocate for maintenance.

Beauty of am MEL.

"Two installed, one required"

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Oh...hush. This was just heating up.

 

[jesse]

Airlines do it. Charter operators do it. Private (91) operators do it.

It saves time and money combining these things with scheduled maintenance.

How?

Take a repair staton or dealer. Every time that airplane goes in it requires someone to open a work order. Then when the airplane arrives it must be towed in the hangar, a cya preliminary inspenction for hangar rash is usually done. Access must be gained by removing interior components, cowling etc. If you're lucky no access is required. Then when all that is reassembled disturbed items need to be function tested. The shop then might have a delivery checklist of some sort. The log entries completed and the airplane leaves.

Why not fix ________ when all the above work must be completed anyway during a scheduled event?

Not to mention some aircraft burn a ton of fuel every time then need to relocate for maintenance.

Right..Tom has given us no context. An example of discrepancies that could build up on an owner before the annual that they quite reasonably decide to wait on:

- Landing light is inoperative
- All three tires are getting pretty worn, please replace.
- Primer is hard to move
- One of the valve covers looks like it might be leaking oil
- rubber engine mount boots are looking like they could use replacing
- Two of the panel lights are burned out
- Replace plastic interior piece that cracked
- etc...

 

[jesse]

That said, the equation is different on privately owned airplanes in some cases. Nonetheless, it sounds like the problem here has to do with an airplane owner who backed himself into a corner and is looking for someone else to blame. His attitude is more of a problem than the basic concept of operating with discrepancies. Done right, it works. Done wrong, its expensive and dangerous.

Since Tom hasn't given us any context as to what the owner waited on, and since the owner is ultimately the boss with the money, I'm not really going to judge. It's not a big deal for the owner they'll just call another mechanic that is perfectly ok with the owner giving them a squawk list with the annual. More money in the mechanic's pocket....

 

[Tom-D]

Right..Tom has given us no context. An example of discrepancies that could build up on an owner before the annual that they quite reasonably decide to wait on:

- Landing light is inoperative
- All three tires are getting pretty worn, please replace.
- Primer is hard to move
- One of the valve covers looks like it might be leaking oil
- rubber engine mount boots are looking like they could use replacing
- Two of the panel lights are burned out
- Replace plastic interior piece that cracked
- etc...

My Ex customer did not tell me what the list of discrepancies were, but IAW your list there are but 2 items on your list that are not owner maintenance.

 

[Tom-D]

Not to mention some aircraft burn a ton of fuel every time then need to relocate for maintenance.

I hope you realize I go to the customer's hangar to do the annual?

They all know I find a biggy they can keep their aircraft in their hangar.

 

[jesse]

My Ex customer did not tell me what the list of discrepancies were, but IAW your list there are but 2 items on your list that are not owner maintenance.

What does owner maintenance have to do with this? Just because the owner could legally fix something does not mean they have the time, the skill, or want to or have to do so.

There are things I *could* legally do on the airplane that I'm dropping off for the 100 hr this weekend. That does not mean I have to. It just means there's no point in me ripping off all the cowls to do something when I know all the cowls are coming off in a few days anyhow.

So you're upset because a pilot called you saying he needed an annual and a few things fixed and didn't even ask what those things were?

 

[timwinters]

I guess Tom would hate me. Every year I try to do one or more upgrades to Ms. DueBeUs when she's in for annual. Last year was proactively rebuild both mags and install new plugs. This year was re-skin the flaps and install gap seals. Next year will be rebuild the fuel selector, likely new tires, and replace the outer half of the right main wheel (the snap ring groove has seen better days).

And then there's whatever else comes up that's not an airworthiness issue and/or aggravating enough to fix mid-year. I keep a list of those too. They'll get fixed if the plane has to go in for something that IS an airworthiness issue, otherwise they wait until the next annual. About the only thing that was on this year's list was an inop co-pilot PPT...like I ever needed that before annual time. It was just by accident that I even realized it was broken.

The big difference being that I let my mechanic know what/when weeks if not months before.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Hook, line and sinker............

 

[Tom-D]

I guess Tom would hate me.
The big difference being that I let my mechanic know what/when weeks if not months before.

There is nothing wrong with being pro-active with your maintenance.
But why lump it all together and call it an annual?

If I were looking for work, I'd love you as a customer.

The thing is if you want me to do some thing for you, don't come to me at the last minute with the "you must attitude"

 

[Tom-D]

Hook, line and sinker............

Only a sucker would think so.

 

[brien23]

There is nothing wrong with being pro-active with your maintenance.
But why lump it all together and call it an annual?

If I were looking for work, I'd love you as a customer.

The thing is if you want me to do some thing for you, don't come to me at the last minute with the "you must attitude"

Their are a lot of shops out their that love that kind of customer and charge them $$$ accordingly. The more of an attitude the more the price goes up, I am sure you have seen the $10,000 Annual come out of some of these shops.

 

[Tom-D]

What does owner maintenance have to do with this?

very much seeing as this is about getting an inspection, not a 13 month maintenance period. We hear a lot about the cost of aviation, yet here we are with a chance to reduce these cost, And we do What ???

So you're upset because a pilot called you saying he needed an annual and a few things fixed and didn't even ask what those things were?

I really don't care what his gripe list looks like, I saw his aircraft setting on the ramp the last time I was at his airport. It's the typical ramp queen showing the owner really doesn't care to keep their aircraft in good condition.
then when I tell him no, then he comes on with the attitude.

Read my lips, I don't need that shi-.

 

[txflyer]

Attitude meets attitude = zero.

 

[Stewartb]

Just as a point of consideration, I like my airplane to go and be returned from annual quickly. I prefer to not have issues that require attention. As for air taxis around here, they get 100 hour inspections in the dark of night and those planes are scheduled for revenue flights in the morning. A couple of hours to do accumulated repairs is expensive for those operators. I suspect they want trouble-free inspections more than I do. The equation changes for planes that are operated by multiple pilots versus planes like mine that have one pilot. Private operators can do little fixes and tolerate little squawks but air taxis want the planes to be correct all the time. It's impossible to walk a mile in another guy's shoes so perceptions of the topic are different. Nobody's right, nobody's wrong. It's just a forum that assembles a variety of attitudes and ideas. Take it for what it is. Talk is cheap.

 

[Tom-D]

Attitude meets attitude = zero.

Exactly, some people pizz me off just standing there, get off my lawn punk

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

My Ex customer did not tell me what the list of discrepancies were, but IAW your list there are but 2 items on your list that are not owner maintenance.

me thinks you're a tired angry old curmudgeon....who doesn't want to be around people.

 

[Dr. O]

Then, there is the flip side.
My mechanic is always finding little surprises at the annual like the timed out battery in the ELT is 'now' current.
Or the plugs look brand new (tooth fairy, maybe?)
Or the crack in that cowling sprang a stop-hole with shiny set of rivets and a backing plate.
He does a lot of mumbling during the annual inspection.

 

[kontiki]

I work as a Service Engineer supporting airline Mx in my day job.

When I bought my Grumman Tiger, I decided to and work on my own plane as much as I have equip and knowledge for. I think letting minor faults go until annual is fine. However, once it's in the hangar and opened up, If I see a fault, I'm fixing it and I'm not going to do half-assed work.

That may be my character flaw in today's business environment, but it's just the way I roll. After a year and a half, I so far, got very little use out of my airplane. But I'm sticking with my plan. I never expected to spend this much time at it. A lot was tooling up, researching parts, and resurrecting long unused skills.

At work, I receive requests to approve temporary repairs 2-3 times a week. Temporary repairs are FAA Minor changes that may require use of a spare wire, alternate parts or materials or maybe a short cut in the process (like piggy backing a wire on a bundle). Some are cosmetic, most are not. Cosmetic issues are another category.

When I write up the approval for a temporary repair (every one must be documented) there is always a hard schedule for accomplishing a follow up permanent repair. When my authorization is released and loaded into the computers, if that follow repair up does not occur, it's grounded, or sometimes Engineering is contacted for an extension, and the process repeats.

The problem I see is that in GA, owner operator still has sole responsibility for Mx, but that individual doesn't necessarily have a Mx background and he shops for A&Ps. So, too many of what should be temporary repairs wind up being permanent repairs. On my airplane, I've found things that had to have been falling apart when the last person got it to stay together and got it out the door (and some Jethro & Bubba improvements).

It's widely understood in the manufacturing (and programming) world, that quality and reliability have to be build in, you can't test them in. And, there is no way to separate Mx processes from the final quality and reliability.

I feel it's necessary to keep the quality high in my airplane, functional redundancy in a GA airplanes is typically low to begin with. It just makes sense to me.

 

[Tom-D]

me thinks you're a tired angry old curmudgeon....who doesn't want to be around people.

No, I'm simply tired of sloppy owners that try to operate with out taking care of their aircraft, then thinking that they can wait until the last minute before arranging the appointment for their annual.

I simply don't want to deal with them any more, I have enough work that does not have that frustration attached.