NON-Cheap Annuals

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Magman

Pattern Altitude
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Magman
I’ve been an A & P ever since I noted that the Nina and Pinta projects were winding down.

As such ; I’ve done Inspections in the POTUS Hangar and in barns where post task shoe

cleaning was essential.

My point is ; “ WHY is the myth that you must spend a LOT of money to get a

QUALITY Inspection perpetuated”?


It is the INTEGRITY and Experience of the Inspector that determines whether

your aircraft is thoroughly examined.

Yeah; the carpets are nice.

The Receptionist is hot.

Does that play a role ?

Anyone that’s been in this business any length of time has seen or heard horror stories.

Owner told “ You need all new cylinders” when subsequent examinations show no

defect and they last for years.

What do you think of being charged for 3 gallons (GALLONS) of 5606 to service Mooney

brakes?

“Removed cotter pin, AN 310, and a Clevis Bolt from forward attach.

Shaft exercised by moving in fore and aft direction..

Unit determined to be functioning properly”

This on a C150 Shimmy Damper.

Why not just Service it?

Should be interesting if anyone has other input on this.
 
Magman said:
I’ve been an A & P ever since I noted that the Nina and Pinta projects were winding down.

As such ; I’ve done Inspections in the POTUS Hangar and in barns where post task shoe

cleaning was essential.

My point is ; “ WHY is the myth that you must spend a LOT of money to get a

QUALITY Inspection perpetuated”?


It is the INTEGRITY and Experience of the Inspector that determines whether

your aircraft is thoroughly examined.

Yeah; the carpets are nice.

The Receptionist is hot.

Does that play a role ?

Anyone that’s been in this business any length of time has seen or heard horror stories.

Owner told “ You need all new cylinders” when subsequent examinations show no

defect and they last for years.

What do you think of being charged for 3 gallons (GALLONS) of 5606 to service Mooney

brakes?

“Removed cotter pin, AN 310, and a Clevis Bolt from forward attach.

Shaft exercised by moving in fore and aft direction..

Unit determined to be functioning properly”

This on a C150 Shimmy Damper.

Why not just Service it?

Should be interesting if anyone has other input on this.
Click to expand...

Ever hear of Syntax? o_O
 
First, too many owners don't seem to understand "the annual" is an inspection. Nothing more. When I hear people say their bugsmasher "annual" cost $14,000, you just know they had something done to the airplane. Some people even add discretionary avionics upgrades to the "cost of their annual" and then complain about it.

Second, the experienced piston GA mechanics are retiring. For a garden variety 172, still no big deal. It's a lot more difficult to find someone who knows Aztecs, to use my example, than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago. The kids all want to work on turbines; can't blame them, that's where the money is. Don't see the problem getting any better with time. Tbe good thing is it forces us owners to be much more knowledgeable about our own airplanes.
 
Magman said:
It is the INTEGRITY and Experience of the Inspector that determines whether your aircraft is thoroughly examined.
Click to expand...
Provided the owner is in the market for an inspection based on integrity instead of looking for 15 minute/$200 inspection.
 
Annual inspections are always pretty affordable. It's the repairs and discrepancy corrections that can be expensive. Those that defer and defer repairs until they accumulate to a critical mass are the ones that have the eye-popping annual inspection and repair bills. Others do maintenance on a timely basis throughout the year to keep things from getting worse and more expensive.
 
Magman said:
I’ve been an A & P ever since I noted that the Nina and Pinta projects were winding down.

As such ; I’ve done Inspections in the POTUS Hangar and in barns where post task shoe

cleaning was essential.

My point is ; “ WHY is the myth that you must spend a LOT of money to get a

QUALITY Inspection perpetuated”?


It is the INTEGRITY and Experience of the Inspector that determines whether

your aircraft is thoroughly examined.

Yeah; the carpets are nice.

The Receptionist is hot.

Does that play a role ?

Anyone that’s been in this business any length of time has seen or heard horror stories.

Owner told “ You need all new cylinders” when subsequent examinations show no

defect and they last for years.

What do you think of being charged for 3 gallons (GALLONS) of 5606 to service Mooney

brakes?

“Removed cotter pin, AN 310, and a Clevis Bolt from forward attach.

Shaft exercised by moving in fore and aft direction..

Unit determined to be functioning properly”

This on a C150 Shimmy Damper.

Why not just Service it?

Should be interesting if anyone has other input on this.
Click to expand...

What the heck are you trying to communicate???
 
Syntax ? Sin -tax?

I think I was brushing nitrate dope when that was covered.


“ I’ve been an A & P etc etc “

I presume most folks in the Western Hemisphere know that the Nina and Pinta

were part of the Columbus Fleet.

A long time ago.

Just like my A & P.



“I’ve done inspections etc etc “.

Explanation:

Whether I did an Annual or 100 Hr Inspection in a cow barn with the floor

covered in s___ or in POTUS (President of the United States) Hangar

did not change my perspective on Airworthiness.


That’s how I see it ; for better or worse.
 
Magman said:
Syntax ? Sin -tax?

I think I was brushing nitrate dope when that was covered.


“ I’ve been an A & P etc etc “

I presume most folks in the Western Hemisphere know that the Nina and Pinta

were part of the Columbus Fleet.

A long time ago.

Just like my A & P.



“I’ve done inspections etc etc “.

Explanation:

Whether I did an Annual or 100 Hr Inspection in a cow barn with the floor

covered in s___ or in POTUS (President of the United States) Hangar

did not change my perspective on Airworthiness.


That’s how I see it ; for better or worse.
Click to expand...


ba2c67fcf810ea6aada3c967368440bd.gif



syn·tax
/ˈsinˌtaks/


noun
noun: syntax
the arrangement of words and phrases to create well-formed sentences in a language.
 
Some owners are really good (willing to learn, willing to address things when they are found when small, see the value a good maintainer brings to their aircraft serviceability and safety). Some want the signature in the log for as little time and money as possible, period. Aircraft is sold with a fancy radio and nice paint and the next owner either continues the process (because it worked so well for Joe Blow) or starts to fix years of deferred stuff.

What is that saying about lipstick on a pig?
 
Too many owners defer all the periodic maintenance until annual and expect bare minimum as their airworthiness standard.
 
Define cheap vs non cheap.

I’ve heard Cirrus folk can drop $10k for an annual. Apparently they have lots of maintenance that’s related to time in service.

A YouTube pilot spend $93k on maintenance only annual.

It’s all relative. Annuals can be a nightmare if you select the wrong IA. But I don’t want a pencil whip one either.
 
Bell206 said:
Provided the owner is in the market for an inspection based on integrity instead of looking for 15 minute/$200 inspection.
Click to expand...
Sense when do you give them a choice?
 
My last 3 annuals were around $350 each. They are owner assisted, I do all the work. The only thing I pay for is the inspection. I hold an A&P certificate but not an IA
 
Tom-D said:
Sense when do you give them a choice?
Click to expand...
Since it's the owner's decision which format is used for the inspection not the mechanic. All you can do as an APIA is either accept his decision or decline to perform the inspection. Simple.
 
Bell206 said:
Since it's the owner's decision which format is used for the inspection not the mechanic. All you can do as an APIA is either accept his decision or decline to perform the inspection. Simple.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. One annual does not fit all applications or circumstances.
 
Haven’t really been getting examples of Owners not really getting what they paid

for.

The “ format” if you wish to call it that or scope and detail of the Inspection

can be conducted per by at least 3 methods.

1. Manufacturers Checklist is usually most stringent.

2. FAR 43 app d is more lenient and not type specific.

3. Own Design that is at least equivalent to FAR43 app d is often used by

Repair Stations.

Regardless of which method is used most 172 / Cherokee types can have the

INSPECTION accomplished in about 20 hours.

No repairs involved.

Would you pay for 40 hours?

How about 60 hours ?


“Zeke” had an aircraft with a not -so - common Engine.

As such; he wanted to be on top of the maintenance.

Two things he requested of the shop were the compression readings

and verifying correct Magneto Timing.

After spending what he said was a LOT of money they were unable to

give him the compression readings.

Fast Forward to another Agency.

“Further investigation revealed “ that the #6 cylinder was still slightly low.

When checking Mag Timing the buzzer had just barely sounded when

“Zeke” yelled DETONATION!!

He was visibly upset when he saw the Mags were more than 10 degrees

advanced of Factory Spec.

Do you think he got what he paid for?

A large Bill is no indicative of quality in my world.
 
Magman said:
Haven’t really been getting examples of Owners not really getting what they paid

for.
Click to expand...
That's a good thing, no! I think a lot of folks end up with expensive "annuals" because they have other work done at the time of the inspection. They figure the plane is down, it's in the shop, just bundle the work.

Personally I like to get the inspection signed off and go from there. I always have a list of things I would like done. As long as I'm in a hangar I spread the work out, so the plane is not down for any real length of time.
 
Magman said:
Haven’t really been getting examples of Owners not really getting what they paid for.
Click to expand...
Still don’t follow what examples you’re looking for. But considering there is no singular requirement/scope-detail/format an aircraft owner must follow for an inspection, it is very hard to compare time required/cost of inspections between owners and their aircraft.

For example, even if the same Annual inspection guide was used, Ol’ Zeke would get a different time/cost result from a freelance APIA, a One-Man Shop, and full service FBO. Throw in the extremes to the equation with your 15 minute/$200 Annual offerings on one end to the CRSs and their extra requirements (preliminary inspections. Etc.) on the other end, the comparison is not linear to the inspection performed.

Now if you want to compare freelance APIA to freelance APIA, etc. then you might have similar info. But then you get into owners who only want the cheapest inspection or the subjective nature of what is airworthy during the inspection, and even that similar data becomes skewed between each aircraft and owner.
Magman said:
the Inspection can be conducted per by at least 3 methods.
Click to expand...
While not common don't forget progressive inspections in the mix as well.
 
Magman said:
Haven’t really been getting examples of Owners not really getting what they paid

for.

The “ format” if you wish to call it that or scope and detail of the Inspection

can be conducted per by at least 3 methods.
Click to expand...

I'm still confused by your random use of the "Enter" ("carriage return") key in the middle of sentences. It does make your posts difficult to read and therefore understand what you're looking for.
 
Bell206 said:
While not common don't forget progressive inspections in the mix as well.
Click to expand...
I have a friend who does progressive inspections on his and his wives plane

edit: It seems to fit his timing, airframe done on both planes then engine done a month or two later. He is an A&P and holds an IA
 
Last edited:
brien23 said:
Their was a time that IA's had stickers to put on the side of the aircraft showing date of Annual inspection and who did it. Now who knows what is out their, if people don't have insurance on their plane what's the chance they have had a Annual in the past few years and still fly it.
Click to expand...

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