New Diamond DA50

[Tantalum]

Interestingly, there were 213 multi-engine piston airplanes shipped last year and 107 of them were Diamonds (77 DA42 and 30 DA62).

Were the rest twin Barons?

I was curious so I checked https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/GAMA_2019_Year-end_Report.pdf

They sold 15 Barons and 7 Bonanzas.. pathetic. In comparison Piper sold 40 Seminoles.. granted this probably went almost entirely to schools. So the DA42 and DA62 sales are a better comparison apples:apples for the Baron. Goes to show that it almost seems like Cessna, err Textron, is actively doing what it can (short of closing the line) to abort their non flight school GA piston line

Incidentally, there were 126 DA40 delivered in 2019.. goes to show it's not all about the BRS. People spending hundreds of thousands of dollars seem to want something new and modern, who would have thought?!

 

[Tantalum]

Watching the TTx go was hard

Indeed. They gave it the Bonanza/Baron treatment. Bought a fantastic plane/design and decided not to market it and blame the ubiquitous GA piston market and letting them die, almost to eliminate any potential competition (but why?). Piper, Diamond, and Cirrus continue to sell planes. You have to innovate. The original Piper designs are old, but the Matrix/Malibu line recently got new wings and they're always tweaking their offerings. I genuinely appreciate what Piper offers the GA world

Oh well.. I could rant all day about how much Cessna sucks, but I'll stop here

PS - in many aspects the TTx was superior to the SR22.. comparable speed (faster.. though in reality it depends who you ask), but the avionics and interior trim were TOP NOTCH. Digital climate controls?! Holy crap! And that wing can allegedly take something like 9+ Gs..

Plus, I know "real pilots" hate the BRS.. but if it does eventually become a "must have" item (like seatbelts and headrests on cars, ABS, etc.) then maybe it's time to just integrate them into new aircraft designs and take that edge away from Cirrus.. level the playing field so to speak

 

[bnt83]

How do you get into the front seats? Like the forward half of the pilot door openings is forward of the wing?

 

[Tantalum]

^carefully

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

It's not about having a stick. The sticks on the Cirrus and Columbia are great. It's having it between your legs and losing tons of room for nothing.



Diesel engines generally have a much better record than gasoline engines.

*Thielert has entered the chat

 

[Tusayan]

You see the word “disaster” featured in about 80% articles written about Continental/Thielerts. Search and see. The original four cylinder disaster has improved but as a result of bankruptcy and current ownership the company lost the military (UAV) customers that helped them improve the design to reasonable serviceability, assuming you have deep pockets for maintenance/replacement. They are now producing Diesel engines in volume for... who? But they do have a new engine for this plane that will surely turn the business around

Both Diamond and Continental/Thielert are Chinese owned (like Cirrus) and I think the retrograde specs of this particular aircraft reflect the lack of product development expertise that comes with that background. It’s also really ugly.

That said, I’ve never owned an aircraft that didn’t have a stick between my legs, probably never will, and don’t find the prospect attractive. It’s the best thing about Diamonds.

 

[FormerHangie]

I like it. It looks like it came from this century. I assume it will be a little more expensive than a Cirrus, if for no other reason than the diesel engine.

General aviation needs some new designs, we can't keep flying the legacy fleet forever.

 

[zaitcev]

Piper sold 40 Seminoles.. granted this probably went almost entirely to schools. . . .
Incidentally, there were 126 DA40 delivered in 2019.. goes to show it's not all about the BRS.

You think those DA40 weren't sold to schools? I think primary training is DA40's biggest market. Not a month passes by without a DA40 fatal and it's always instructor and cadet somewhere in Lituania. Yes, their large contract with the USAF school in Pueblo is over, but nothing changed in the rest of the world. The air forces of many countries train in Diamonds. In many of those countries 100LL does not exist at all.

 

[Groundpounder]

On another message board, they said the somewhat low MTOW is on purpose. Anything that is 2000kg or higher has additional fees in Europe. The DA50 is 1999kg. Maybe they will have a "fat american" edition, with a higher MTOW.

 

[GRG55]

...Diesel engines generally have a much better record than gasoline engines.

If you are referring to diesel aircraft engines this is patently untrue.

The blocks and internals seem robust, but the accessories - gearboxes, fuel pumps, dampners,fuel injection nozzles - on both the Thielert and Austro Daimler-derived engines have been expensive headaches. The original gearbox on the Thielert powered DA-42s was supposed to last the life of the engine. It ended up with a 300 hour replacement interval. Expensive when you have to buy two of them.

But as the number of diesel aircraft engines in service increases and the time on them provides good operating information, these engines are really improving and the problems are steadily being engineered out.

 

[Challenged]

Originally when I saw this plane I was impressed and thought it looked nice and modern. When I noticed the 20,000 ft service ceiling my first thought was that maybe it's pressurized, which I thought would be cool. Now that I look over the specs I think I'm less impressed. I guess we're battling physics here, but I believe my 50 year old Bonanza has better climb, better take-off and landing distance, the same useful load (although I bet the CG is better on the DA), better range, fits in most hangars, is only a few knots slower, can utilize 9.6gph at max range and probably costs $700,000 less than this.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Originally when I saw this plane I was impressed and thought it looked nice and modern. When I noticed the 20,000 ft service ceiling my first thought was that maybe it's pressurized, which I thought would be cool. Now that I look over the specs I think I'm less impressed. I guess we're battling physics here, but I believe my 50 year old Bonanza has better climb, better take-off and landing distance, the same useful load (although I bet the CG is better on the DA), better range, fits in most hangars, is only a few knots slower, can utilize 9.6gph at max range and probably costs $700,000 less than this.

Apples and oranges. Compare it to the price of a NEW Bonanza and see where it lands.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

It's exciting to see Diamond putting up a fresh design and concept, and I'm not about criticizing that. However, it is not clear that they are bringing any exceptional performance to the table (at this point). I don't see any great advantages (if any) over an older Bonanza (which could be fully decked-out and brought to as-new condition for probably less than half the sticker price of the DA50. I'm genuinely piqued by the DA-50 and I pray for its success, but I wonder if it's all that great. Just sayin'.

The DA50 can be used everywhere that 100LL is not available, which is most of the world outside of the US.

 

[Tantalum]

Not a month passes by without a DA40 fatal and it's always instructor and cadet somewhere in Lituania

I don't understand why these small planes crash so often.. they're legitimately not that hard to fly, especially Diamonds with their forgiving glider inspired wing. Crazy town.

Apples and oranges. Compare it to the price of a NEW Bonanza and see where it lands.

THANK YOU!

Plus, I doubt the Diamond needs its wing bolts inspected every 500 hours. I've also yet to ride in a Bonanza (granted, only a handful) that can manage over 150-155 KTAS. At 180 KTAS this Diamond is in the Cirrus realm (and some Mooney) and on a 400 nm trip, especially with potential for unfavorable winds, those extra 20-30 knots helps a huge amount. Incidentally, the doors are a HUGE issue to people who aren't pilots, and frankly pilots too. That's a major advantage of the 172/182 line and often the reason people train in that vs PA-28 and step up into other Cessna's. Plus, the Bonanza's cabin is narrow for how big it is. It's time to shine was 50 years ago.

 

[PaulS]

Can anyone explain why it is so fricken heavy? Steel I-beam wing spar?

 

[Tusayan]

Diamond has a long history of trying to promote GA outside of North America, through its products and non-avgas Diesel engines. It hasn't generated a lot of sales to individuals, and only a moderate number to schools, because the GA as we know it is in most countries politically unacceptable, forbidden or highly constrained. The highest barrier to entry in most countries is non-technical, not fuel related, and that problem is unlikely to change. So Diamond ends up selling a few planes in the US, a few in Europe and a few elsewhere without really cracking any new markets regardless of Diesel engines.

I see the 'product positioning' issue with this plane being that unlike the Diesel twins its more applicable to private owners than schools, and there are few private owners who want to make the performance, technical risk/cost and other compromises that allow the plane to be more suitable for places where it is extremely challenging to fly any light aircraft. I can imagine that the Chinese company owners may have a plan for sales in their country, but Chinese light aircraft sales have never really worked out in past.

 

[Cervieres]

Incidentally, the doors are a HUGE issue to people who aren't pilots, and frankly pilots too. That's a major advantage of the 172/182 line and often the reason people train in that vs PA-28 and step up into other Cessna's. Plus, the Bonanza's cabin is narrow for how big it is. It's time to shine was 50 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Yep. I haven't been on the forum very long and don't want to stir up Bonanza owners, but there is no comparison in terms of interior and cockpit. Unless having a fold out writing desk is your top priority.

 

[Bobanna]

I don't understand why these small planes crash so often.. they're legitimately not that hard to fly, especially Diamonds with their forgiving glider inspired wing. Crazy town.


THANK YOU!

Plus, I doubt the Diamond needs its wing bolts inspected every 500 hours. I've also yet to ride in a Bonanza (granted, only a handful) that can manage over 150-155 KTAS. At 180 KTAS this Diamond is in the Cirrus realm (and some Mooney) and on a 400 nm trip, especially with potential for unfavorable winds, those extra 20-30 knots helps a huge amount. Incidentally, the doors are a HUGE issue to people who aren't pilots, and frankly pilots too. That's a major advantage of the 172/182 line and often the reason people train in that vs PA-28 and step up into other Cessna's. Plus, the Bonanza's cabin is narrow for how big it is. It's time to shine was 50 years ago.

I don't understand why these small planes crash so often.. they're legitimately not that hard to fly, especially Diamonds with their forgiving glider inspired wing. Crazy town.


THANK YOU!

Plus, I doubt the Diamond needs its wing bolts inspected every 500 hours. I've also yet to ride in a Bonanza (granted, only a handful) that can manage over 150-155 KTAS. At 180 KTAS this Diamond is in the Cirrus realm (and some Mooney) and on a 400 nm trip, especially with potential for unfavorable winds, those extra 20-30 knots helps a huge amount. Incidentally, the doors are a HUGE issue to people who aren't pilots, and frankly pilots too. That's a major advantage of the 172/182 line and often the reason people train in that vs PA-28 and step up into other Cessna's. Plus, the Bonanza's cabin is narrow for how big it is. It's time to shine was 50 years ago.

While I share your view that the Bonanza is an old design (perhaps ahead of its time), I'd submit that the Bonanza set the bar in many ways for what a balanced, high-performance GA aircraft can do. It is also a convenient and apt comparison of what a 300 hp lightplane should be able to do. My Bonanza experience is limited to an A36 and an F33A, both which would true 170 kts all day long at gross weight and about 15 gph.
As for mandatory inspections, I would submit that a mandatory engine replacement (at relatively low time) off-sets this. Further, only time will tell what mandatory inspections will be necessary on the Diamond.

I'm not being contentious, but just trying to offer counter-points. I'd also suggest that perhaps Piper's PA-46 line maybe a comparable to the Diamond 50 (a slightly different league, but similar from an owner/operator standpoint.

 

[Tantalum]

I'd submit that the Bonanza set the bar in many ways for what a balanced, high-performance GA aircraft can do

Absolutely. It certainly set the standard. And the first one came out in what, 1947? WAYYY ahead of its time.. but I think some people put it above the level it actually is

 

[zaitcev]

This airplane will be made viable by installing something like Rolls-Royce M250 on it. Suddenly all that extra weight becomes a non-issue and they will just extend fuel tanks outboard into the wings for 150 gallons or whatever is necessary for 4 hours endurance. Cruise at 200 knots in low tweens with just cannula. Watch this space, the logic of the events will force them do it. Well, it may be named DA60 or whatever, but it's basically inevitable.

 

[PaulS]

Absolutely. It certainly set the standard. And the first one came out in what, 1947? WAYYY ahead of its time.. but I think some people put it above the level it actually is

I don't know though, Matt Guthmiller recently posted a pandemic video where he flew somewhere, had a good meal delivered to the FBO, and sat at the table in the back of bo and had a candlelight (battery) dinner with his girl. Can't do that in a Cirrus......

 

[wheaties]

I just wanted to chime in and say that Diamond is hopefully going to try to emulate Cirrus in the owner step up plan. For Cirrus it can go SR20 -> SR22 -> VisionJet. Same control feels and familiarity. Diamond has suffered from not being able to do the same offering only DA20 -> DA40. If they can add a turbo prop to the DA50 like they tested, they'll have their entry into the very high margins of high wealth individuals.

 

[asicer]

How do you get into the front seats? Like the forward half of the pilot door openings is forward of the wing?

From the picture in post#99, I'm guessing one of either

1. Sit on the sill, swing your legs over and slide in
2. Step on the sill with one foot then step in with the other foot

 

[Tantalum]

sat at the table

lol people love that table!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Interestingly, there were 213 multi-engine piston airplanes shipped last year and 107 of them were Diamonds (77 DA42 and 30 DA62).

Were the rest twin Barons?

What's a single Baron?

I was a bit curious about this, so here's what the GAMA numbers tell us about piston twins:

Of the 213 that were shipped last year:

58 were manufactured in the US:
3 Piper PA34 Senecas
40 Piper PA44 Seminoles
15 Textron Beechcraft G58 Barons

155 were manufactured in Europe:
77 Diamond DA42
30 Diamond DA62
40 Tecnam P2006
8 Tecnam P2012

It's not about having a stick. The sticks on the Cirrus and Columbia are great. It's having it between your legs and losing tons of room for nothing.

You don't lose "tons of room". Maybe a total of 3 inches at leg level, 9 square inches total.

And you don't get "nothing", you get absolutely fantastic control, if they do as well with this as they did with the DA-40. I've flown two aircraft types that had control harmony and feel that was head and shoulders better than the rest: DA-40 and P-51 Mustang.

You think those DA40 weren't sold to schools? I think primary training is DA40's biggest market. Not a month passes by without a DA40 fatal and it's always instructor and cadet somewhere in Lituania. Yes, their large contract with the USAF school in Pueblo is over, but nothing changed in the rest of the world. The air forces of many countries train in Diamonds. In many of those countries 100LL does not exist at all.

There's certainly a market for the DA40 as a trainer, but it also has very nice ramp appeal and performance that gets it into the hands of quite a few private owners. IME, there are far more of those private owners than there are flight schools, at least in the US.

 

[PaulS]

You make it sound so cheap.

Lol, didn't mean to, it was actually pretty cool, the battery comment was just to point out he was concerned about fire as he should be.

 

[Bobanna]

Lol, didn't mean to, it was actually pretty cool, the battery comment was just to point out he was concerned about fire as he should be.

Paul: I was just being snarky. It is kinda cool to have that table (drives Mooney guys crazy).

 

[Mtns2Skies]

What's a single Baron?

Not quite the same performance.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

No thanks. I’d spend my money on new or almost new Cirrus, with a proven 20 year track record/design, plus it comes with a chute. Yep.

 

[hindsight2020]

Can anyone explain why it is so fricken heavy? Steel I-beam wing spar?

No, they're heavy becuase they don't. All-composite material construction will do that vis a vis metal. The load-carrying components need to be over-engineered due to composite having unpredictable fatigue behavior (too brittle for a predictable plastic deformation phase, one which they effectively don't have). This forces the certification to use ultimate failure as the safety factor, then certifying down. As such, the thing is gonna be overbuilt like nobody's business, thus porky.

The downside is of course, your useful load goes to chit. The upside is you're not pulling those wings off at the normal/utility certified category; you basically have aerobatic wings without being legally able to use them as such. Physics doesn't care about legalities, so you got them.

 

[Tantalum]

The upside is you're not pulling those wings off

this is what I love about composites. The lack of traditional fatigue and how seriously overbuilt they are

 

[wayne]

I think you have a valid point. It help some that it's jet-a, and fuel efficient. But 50 still seems like on the small side for the application.

Edit: Although, assuming max range of 750 miles at 9 gph burn, and about one gallon unusable fuel, that equates to roughly 4.9 hours plus a 30 minute reserve. You probably won't want to fly longer than that anyway. So, maybe the tank is big enough. They don't say what airspeed is "max range." I'm not sure how much the fuel burn goes up with a realistic cruise speed.

That comes out to a little over 150 knots. Most people flying traveling planes don’t pull the power back that far unless they really need max range.

 

[3393RP]

As such, the thing is gonna be overbuilt like nobody's business, thus porky.

The downside is of course, your useful load goes to chit.

According to the specifications listed on Diamond's website, the DA-50 has a 920 lb useful load with full fuel. That's 300 lbs more than a G36 Bonanza and 130 lbs more than a Cirrus SR22 G6 when both are fully fueled.

Obviously the DA-50 holds less fuel, but the expectation is that endurance will be similar to the other two aircraft because of the diesel engine.

 

[GRG55]

The DA50 can be used everywhere that 100LL is not available, which is most of the world outside of the US.

This is a European plane that is really geared for a non-USA market. Shorter distances between major centers, steep avgas fuel prices and decreasing availability, comparatively high cost of flying, and likely a more limited availability of good used high performance planes than we are accustomed to.

I don't know though, Matt Guthmiller recently posted a pandemic video where he flew somewhere, had a good meal delivered to the FBO, and sat at the table in the back of bo and had a candlelight (battery) dinner with his girl. Can't do that in a Cirrus......

Don't need to. I heard Cirrus owners just rent a whole restaurant for their date.

 

[JEB]

I like seeing the DA50 coming to market. The entire industry needs the competition. Hopefully it will cost a little less than a Cirrus, just so that it can gain the market share that it seems to deserve. It's a nice looking and modern plane - we all need more of those around and I hope it sells well.

in my opinion (and that's just my opinion) - Performance wise, it's good, but not great.
Pros and Cons when I look at it are...

• (Pro) It looks like it has a nice wide cabin
• (Pro) It has TKS and is approved for flight into known ice.
• (Con) The Stick is a negative item in my opinion. I wish Diamond would reconsider this on the Twins also - it's just in the way when you're using this as a traveling airplane. Yes, I know sticks are fun to fly, plenty of experience with them, just not right for me in this case.
• (Con) The range is too short at 750 miles and that's assuming you're flying best economy.
• (Meh) The UL is OK, but not equal to my Bonanza.
• (Con) The wingspan is a major issue if you want to find a hangar where I live. The DA50 would cost at least $200 more/month in storage and that assumes you can even get the hangar.

I put together this fast comparison - The numbers for the Bonanzas are based on my own A36 and posted specs for the A36TC on Risingup.com - I fully expect someone to nitpick these numbers, go ahead. There will always be variation in what you can find on the web and our own experience with different aircraft. I can easily show the results below for my own A36 if you are in the SoCal area. By the way, the Turbo Normalized A36 (after market mod vs factory TC) is usually considered to be a superior airplane to the TC version - so someone might come along with those numbers.

 

[N1120A]

I absolutely love the concept of diesel engines for light pistons. More reliable, less burn, more useable power, better availability, often cheaper fuel. This is something Diamond is spot on with. There needs to be STCs for these big diesels on everything currently running on AvGas.

I just wanted to chime in and say that Diamond is hopefully going to try to emulate Cirrus in the owner step up plan. For Cirrus it can go SR20 -> SR22 -> VisionJet. Same control feels and familiarity. Diamond has suffered from not being able to do the same offering only DA20 -> DA40. If they can add a turbo prop to the DA50 like they tested, they'll have their entry into the very high margins of high wealth individuals.

Well, DA40 -> DA50 -> DA62

What's a single Baron?

I was a bit curious about this, so here's what the GAMA numbers tell us about piston twins:

Of the 213 that were shipped last year:

58 were manufactured in the US:
3 Piper PA34 Senecas
40 Piper PA44 Seminoles
15 Textron Beechcraft G58 Barons

155 were manufactured in Europe:
77 Diamond DA42
30 Diamond DA62
40 Tecnam P2006
8 Tecnam P2012



You don't lose "tons of room". Maybe a total of 3 inches at leg level, 9 square inches total.

And you don't get "nothing", you get absolutely fantastic control, if they do as well with this as they did with the DA-40. I've flown two aircraft types that had control harmony and feel that was head and shoulders better than the rest: DA-40 and P-51 Mustang.



There's certainly a market for the DA40 as a trainer, but it also has very nice ramp appeal and performance that gets it into the hands of quite a few private owners. IME, there are far more of those private owners than there are flight schools, at least in the US.

1) I totally disagree that the control is better. I much prefer flying a Cirrus or Grumman to a Diamond.

2) Are any of the Diamond twins built in Canada?

3) Yes, you lose room. The design of that flight deck, at least on the 40, is horribly lacking in ergonomics and space.

 

[zaitcev]

There needs to be STCs for these big diesels on everything currently running on AvGas.

There have been STCs for both Thielert and SMA diesels in Cessnas. They can be found flying abroad.

 

[N1120A]

There have been STCs for both Thielert and SMA diesels in Cessnas. They can be found flying abroad.

I mean for things like Bonanzas and Cirrus.

 

[PaulS]

I mean for things like Bonanzas and Cirrus.

I think cirrus might watch this for a few years, see what Diamond's experience is with this engine, then if it gets to 2000 hours, tbr, slap one in a 22. But what do I know.

 

[GRG55]

This airplane will be made viable by installing something like Rolls-Royce M250 on it. Suddenly all that extra weight becomes a non-issue and they will just extend fuel tanks outboard into the wings for 150 gallons or whatever is necessary for 4 hours endurance. Cruise at 200 knots in low tweens with just cannula. Watch this space, the logic of the events will force them do it. Well, it may be named DA60 or whatever, but it's basically inevitable.

I just wanted to chime in and say that Diamond is hopefully going to try to emulate Cirrus in the owner step up plan. For Cirrus it can go SR20 -> SR22 -> VisionJet. Same control feels and familiarity. Diamond has suffered from not being able to do the same offering only DA20 -> DA40. If they can add a turbo prop to the DA50 like they tested, they'll have their entry into the very high margins of high wealth individuals.

Why would anybody buy a non-pressurized turboprop Diamond instead of a Piper Malibu or Cirrus jet?
Makes about as much sense as those turboprop Bonanza conversions compared to a P210 Silver Eagle.