New car - IRRITATING!

Dana said:
My 2023 Jeep has hand cranked windows, no power locks, no ACC. It has a backup camera as required by law. Touchscreen, but all normal functions have knobs or physical switches.
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Ditto, ‘22 Wrangler Sport 2 door. Bottom of the line, no power windows, door locks, seats, anything. Most basic Jeep available, 6 speed manual, soft top.

I did order four options, ac (southeast), tinted rear windows(southeast), trailer tow to get the factory hitch and wiring, and limited slip rear differential because an open differential in a Jeep makes no sense.
 
The first car I owned was a 1981 Z28, black with gold stripes. I bought it in my senior year of high school in 1982, it was just under one year old. I sold it in 2004. It is the car that I have kept the longest.

Dumb cruise. Automatic. 350 engine that somehow found a way to let only 170hp reach the wheels. Power windows and locks, though the power locks became iffy after a couple of years as the locking system design was unchanged from the manual lock days and the solenoid struggled to move it as it stiffened up a bit with age unless it had the higher voltage when the engine was running. T-Tops never leaked, but they'd rattle a little bit, not too bad, at times. The adjustment was difficult to get right.

Loved the car. Had an Alpine stereo with Linear amp and base-vent subwoofer. I was in the habit of riding with the windows down when at slower speeds and only putting them up at higher speeds. I was thinking of that recently as now I never put the windows down.

Sold it in 2004 when, with two small kids, I couldn't properly secure a child seat so I was rarely driving it. It's window sticker said about $12,500 MSRP. I bought it with 11,691 miles for $8,500. (With TTL, it came up to $8,888.88. The salesman thought his calculator had broken) Sold it for $5,000. Rebuilt the engine twice, transmission three times, and repainted it thrice, as well.

Really fun car at the time, but I haven't missed it. This was one of the pictures I took when I was selling it.

DSC00024.JPG

When I bought the wheels in the picture, the young kid behind the counter tried to convince me to plus-size the wheels. In an '81 Camaro?!?!? I picked these because the design suggested the stock wheel design from '81 but was much nicer. I thought it fitted the car's design well.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Whenever you sing praises for a 25+ year old car, take a look at this video and decide which one you'd rather be in if things go wrong:

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I'll take my chances.

I've come closer to having a collision in newer cars - with the "nannies" kicking in when they shouldn't - than I have in any older car that does what the driver tells it to do.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I'll take my chances.

I've come closer to having a collision in newer cars - with the "nannies" kicking in when they shouldn't - than I have in any older car that does what the driver tells it to do.
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Driving in Iceland in one of "nannies", encountered a group of bicyclists going same direction as me. As I moved a bit to the left to pass, the car decided that it would be a good idea to swerve back directly at the group. Had to fight it really hard to "convince" the car that crossing the dashed line into the empty for miles opposite lane was MUCH MUCH safer choice. I'll stick with my '93 and '01 model years.
 
Ashara Keliyn said:
Driving in Iceland in one of "nannies", encountered a group of bicyclists going same direction as me. As I moved a bit to the left to pass, the car decided that it would be a good idea to swerve back directly at the group. Had to fight it really hard to "convince" the car that crossing the dashed line into the empty for miles opposite lane was MUCH MUCH safer choice. I'll stick with my '93 and '01 model years.
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Of course it did, it did exactly what it's supposed to do. At least in every car I've driven with that technology, 1) if you put on your turn signal it disables that function, and 2) you can manually overcome it anyway. Or 3), you can turn that feature off entirely.

I mean, it's not like it trying to keep you in your lane is unexpected. That's literally the purpose.
 
RussR said:
Of course it did, it did exactly what it's supposed to do. At least in every car I've driven with that technology, 1) if you put on your turn signal it disables that function, and 2) you can manually overcome it anyway. Or 3), you can turn that feature off entirely.

I mean, it's not like it trying to keep you in your lane is unexpected. That's literally the purpose.
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I fully understand that the purpose is keeping the lane, not designed and programmed to hit random bicyclists on a highway. My point is that I do not want it. I'm not sure about the blinker, but fighting it took a considerable force and a fast reaction time, as about disabling, it was a rental and I had no idea that such feature existed. Definitely not a good safety feature in my opinion.
 
Ashara Keliyn said:
I fully understand that the purpose is keeping the lane, not designed and programmed to hit random bicyclists on a highway. My point is that I do not want it. I'm not sure about the blinker, but fighting it took a considerable force and a fast reaction time, as about disabling, it was a rental and I had no idea that such feature existed. Definitely not a good safety feature in my opinion.
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As a counterpoint, Nissan cars seem to act more as a stick-shaker. I drove over 1000 miles a few weeks ago and found the feature very helpful. The one time I had to swerve to avoid a fool, I had full control. I could pay more attention to the road ahead while the car kept within the lane. I noticed that multiple lane markings from construction confused it, also a very wide lane from an entry ramp seemed to confuse it. I stayed driver-in-command so neither of these were an issue.

I did notice one person who treated the lane assist and adaptive cruise control as an auto-pilot, keeping their hands on the wheel while playing on their phone. I didn't feel the feature was safe in their hands.
 
RussR said:
Of course it did, it did exactly what it's supposed to do. At least in every car I've driven with that technology, 1) if you put on your turn signal it disables that function, and 2) you can manually overcome it anyway. Or 3), you can turn that feature off entirely.

I mean, it's not like it trying to keep you in your lane is unexpected. That's literally the purpose.
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The problem is that the computer doesn't know as much as the driver knows. This is why these "safety" functions are hazardous, not helpful.
 
StraightnLevel said:
The problem is that the computer doesn't know as much as the driver knows. This is why these "safety" functions are hazardous, not helpful.
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Perhaps. Or maybe the problem is that we as drivers don’t know how to properly use them.

Both our cars have lane centering technology. For 90+% of the time, they are a dramatic safety benefit. I can spend my attention and focus on essentially the “big picture”, since I don’t have to spend any brain cells on the purely mechanical task of keeping the car between the lines.

If I come to a confusing exit lane or a construction zone or a group of bicyclists, and am going to need to do something to override the system, it’s not hard to do. That doesn’t mean the system doesn’t work or isn’t a valuable safety benefit. It just means you have to know and understand its capabilities.

Kind of like autopilots. You probably wouldn’t say “Well, this autopilot doesn’t have altitude preselect, so therefore I’m not going to use it at all because it’s hazardous”. Instead, a 90% solution is better than a 0% solution, once you understand the limitations.
 
RussR said:
Perhaps. Or maybe the problem is that we as drivers don’t know how to properly use them.

Both our cars have lane centering technology. For 90+% of the time, they are a dramatic safety benefit. I can spend my attention and focus on essentially the “big picture”, since I don’t have to spend any brain cells on the purely mechanical task of keeping the car between the lines.

If I come to a confusing exit lane or a construction zone or a group of bicyclists, and am going to need to do something to override the system, it’s not hard to do. That doesn’t mean the system doesn’t work or isn’t a valuable safety benefit. It just means you have to know and understand its capabilities.

Kind of like autopilots. You probably wouldn’t say “Well, this autopilot doesn’t have altitude preselect, so therefore I’m not going to use it at all because it’s hazardous”. Instead, a 90% solution is better than a 0% solution, once you understand the limitations.
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Sorry, but that comparison doesn't hold water. If the autopilot suddenly decided to pitch you 10 degrees nose down and 30 degrees to the left right as you're approach the FAF in a mountainous region, would that be acceptable? Of course not - yet that's the sort of crap that these things do - slam on brakes when there is no threat ahead with traffic close behind - swerving back into a lane that is disappearing (I've been pushed forcefully towards concrete barriers in construction zones), etc.

Perhaps someday the technology will improve to a point that it is effective and safe, but today what I've seen is nowhere near as capable and safe as a competent, attentive driver.
 
My Ford ACC has speed limit sign recognition. Set the speed at whatever, and go. When you pass a speed limit sign the set point changes to match. It’s interesting to see that it works in construction zones where the speed limits drop, then resume. But…there are way too many moments where it “sees” something that isn’t there, and you’re on a 70 mph stretch only for the system to think it saw a 40mph sign. Sometimes it might see a sign on a parallel outer road, I think, other times I have no idea. So, if you enable that function, expect the unexpected.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Whenever you sing praises for a 25+ year old car, take a look at this video and decide which one you'd rather be in if things go wrong:

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Please continue enjoying modern cars, and my greatest wish is that everyone else does too. I don't want to compete in this market, I just want to buy cars that until a few years ago were esoteric bucket list items for those of us who actually give a ****. But there is a reason that "modern classics" are pulling huge money these days, both at the private resale market as well as at auction. Gooding Christie just auctioned a 1979 (or maybe 76?) s123 (that's the wagon version) Mercedes 280TE in green/green, with 6k km for $220k last week. The guy doing the 6-spd manual transmission swap on my 1995 Merc was the one who did the safety check and drove it onto the auction block. He also drove the $42M original Ford GT, but that one probably falls under the "this was always a collectible" category.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Sorry, but that comparison doesn't hold water. If the autopilot suddenly decided to pitch you 10 degrees nose down and 30 degrees to the left right as you're approach the FAF in a mountainous region, would that be acceptable? Of course not - yet that's the sort of crap that these things do - slam on brakes when there is no threat ahead with traffic close behind - swerving back into a lane that is disappearing (I've been pushed forcefully towards concrete barriers in construction zones), etc.

Perhaps someday the technology will improve to a point that it is effective and safe, but today what I've seen is nowhere near as capable and safe as a competent, attentive driver.
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my cars aren't that aggressive and the 2 or 3 people the autobraking has kept me from hitting are probably thankful. agree with just override, doesn't even take brain power, it's more a muscle memory thing.

in germany right now, the lane keeping has been very helpful keeping me safe on these narrow roads while i try to find where the heck i'm going. heck, i didn't even notice the stop-start until i realized the car was super quiet at one of those long stoplights.
 
Larry in TN said:
The first car I owned was a 1981 Z28, black with gold stripes. I bought it in my senior year of high school in 1982, it was just under one year old. I sold it in 2004. It is the car that I have kept the longest.

Dumb cruise. Automatic. 350 engine that somehow found a way to let only 170hp reach the wheels. Power windows and locks, though the power locks became iffy after a couple of years as the locking system design was unchanged from the manual lock days and the solenoid struggled to move it as it stiffened up a bit with age unless it had the higher voltage when the engine was running. T-Tops never leaked, but they'd rattle a little bit, not too bad, at times. The adjustment was difficult to get right.

Loved the car. Had an Alpine stereo with Linear amp and base-vent subwoofer. I was in the habit of riding with the windows down when at slower speeds and only putting them up at higher speeds. I was thinking of that recently as now I never put the windows down.

Sold it in 2004 when, with two small kids, I couldn't properly secure a child seat so I was rarely driving it. It's window sticker said about $12,500 MSRP. I bought it with 11,691 miles for $8,500. (With TTL, it came up to $8,888.88. The salesman thought his calculator had broken) Sold it for $5,000. Rebuilt the engine twice, transmission three times, and repainted it thrice, as well.

Really fun car at the time, but I haven't missed it. This was one of the pictures I took when I was selling it.

View attachment 154530

When I bought the wheels in the picture, the young kid behind the counter tried to convince me to plus-size the wheels. In an '81 Camaro?!?!? I picked these because the design suggested the stock wheel design from '81 but was much nicer. I thought it fitted the car's design well.
Click to expand...
That was my favorite year when I was a kid, never owned one but my older cousin in Canada did. If I remember, that cowl hood was connected to the carb linkage somehow to open the rear flapper to the high pressure at the base of the windshield? Or did I create that imagination?
 
LOL at all car threads and complaints.

Tesla
 
4RNB said:
Tesla
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gettyimages-685868568-1597063320.jpg
 
Larry in TN said:
The first car I owned was a 1981 Z28, black with gold stripes. I bought it in my senior year of high school in 1982, it was just under one year old. I sold it in 2004. It is the car that I have kept the longest.
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Nice cars, but I always thought they were rather overstyled. One of my friends called them "rolling sculptures". But what do I know, I was driving a 280Z at the time. Loved that car, but I got a lot of speeding tickets in it.
StraightnLevel said:
Perhaps someday the technology will improve to a point that it is effective and safe, but today what I've seen is nowhere near as capable and safe as a competent, attentive driver.
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But it may be as safe as the average incompetent inattentive driver?
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Of course it isn't, but one must remember that 81.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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And 100% of inconvenient data is "apparently fabricated" the moment it disagrees with someone’s opinion.

The data I found was from NHTSA, police reports, and insurance claims.

455 Bravo Uniform said:
That was my favorite year when I was a kid, never owned one but my older cousin in Canada did. If I remember, that cowl hood was connected to the carb linkage somehow to open the rear flapper to the high pressure at the base of the windshield? Or did I create that imagination?
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There was a solenoid that would open the intake doors when the throttle was floored, as long as the engine was warmed up, allowing the higher-pressure air into the . I wired in a couple of red 12v bulbs, behind the door, to the power lead for the solenoid. Had a night red glow in there when the doors opened.
 
Dana said:
But it may be as safe as the average incompetent inattentive driver?
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Probably - the people who really shouldn't be driving to begin with.

For those customers, this junk makes sense. For competent, attentive drivers, this garbage should not be forced. If someone wants to use it, fine - but that should be a decision made by the person who paid for the car, not some low-level bureaucrat in a cubicle farm.
 
If it’s the “in Germany” part, it wasn’t at a low organizational layer, it was a mid to high level manager/executive with great ego and underlings who were too obedient or scared to push back.

In the US, the underlings would indeed push back, but the lawyers would have the final say and the upper level/exec management would be too mortgaged to push back on those lawyers.

I have wounds from working for both US and German publicly traded companies. They will never fully heal…
 
Porsche as a company has been doing pretty poorly as of late. They're selling off assets and IP to stay afloat.
 
Half Fast said:
Fixed it for your particular case.

Most of the driver aids I’ve seen in US cars have to be selected or can be easily turned off, with the exception of anti-lock brakes.
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Well, ABS is one item that I would not want to disable. The early iterations were awful, but the current independent corner implementations are very solid.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Porsche as a company has been doing pretty poorly as of late. They're selling off assets and IP to stay afloat.
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Yes, they completely missed the mark and stopped listening to their customers in the US and China. They are all but gone in China, and scrambling to get back in the US game. Since the US is the majority of their revenue, this was a serious mis-step.

IMO, the issues I am having are part of this series of bad decisions - allowing EU regulations to screw up their US products.
 
StraightnLevel said:
The problem is that the computer doesn't know as much as the driver knows. This is why these "safety" functions are hazardous, not helpful.
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@RussR said it well. You need to stay driver-in-command. I don't expect these things to be full self-driving, as described for Tesla vehicles. I found that I could pay attention to what was happening further down the road, and change lanes as needed to manage driving, and not become stuck behind slow vehicles. Depending on the circumstances, I would take back full control and start slowing down, or prepare to maneuver or do what was needed to ensure safety and comfort. I don't fully trust any of these computerized aids- they all have the potential to fail. The lane centering and adaptive cruise control did reduce fatigue while driving.
 
StraightnLevel said:
[snip] but today what I've seen is nowhere near as capable and safe as a competent, attentive driver.
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I get your point and I rail against my van's nanny software as well. Unfortunately, in way to many vehicles (including mine on occasion) a competent, attentive driver is not always present.
 
one thing about all these "features" that are intended to provide a less dangerous car, insurance companies seem to love them.

When my new 2020 car insurance was lower than the insurance on a 2014 car (the 2014 car was a less expensive model to begin with), I asked my insurance agent if someone made a mistake. His reply was, nope, the various "features" were the reason for the lower rates.
 
jsstevens said:
I get your point and I rail against my van's nanny software as well. Unfortunately, in way to many vehicles (including mine on occasion) a competent, attentive driver is not always present.
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biggest bull **** i've heard in awhile, we are ALL attentive until we are not.... the 3 year old kid that was saved from going under my jeep ran out from between 2 cars, If i had saw him there is a 99% chance i still wouldn't have stopped in time, but the car DID.

heck what about the 100% safe pilot who flew for 30 years before he geared up his plane? he looked safe as we were sliding down the runway.

we all slip
 
MackMooney said:
biggest bull **** i've heard in awhile, we are ALL attentive until we are not.... the 3 year old kid that was saved from going under my jeep ran out from between 2 cars, If i had saw him there is a 99% chance i still wouldn't have stopped in time, but the car DID.

heck what about the 100% safe pilot who flew for 30 years before he geared up his plane? he looked safe as we were sliding down the runway.

we all slip
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Which is what I said, so I'm not sure why the biggest bull comment?

I will add that on several occasions (and we've owned the vehicle for 8 years) it has alerted (and even braked on its own a couple of times) when an oncoming car approaches at a curve on the other side of a divided 4 lane road. Which is decidedly not safe.
 
jsstevens said:
Which is what I said, so I'm not sure why the biggest bull comment?

I will add that on several occasions (and we've owned the vehicle for 8 years) it has alerted (and even braked on its own a couple of times) when an oncoming car approaches at a curve on the other side of a divided 4 lane road. Which is decidedly not safe.
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sorry it attached the wrong reply, i may like cars but i def have trackpad itis
 
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