NA/ ~Chevy Volt?~ /NA

Ghery said:
My experience with motorcycles says that they are not in the posibility list.



Exactly. BTDT, got the scars and messed up ankle (from 38 years ago). My wife has made it clear (she was on the back when we got hit) that buying another motorcycle would be the end of our marriage. And I'm not interested in starting over.
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I used to race motocross and love to ride. In 6 years of racing I only broke one bone, and it was a bit of a freak accident as I didn't even crash. Hit neutral while shifting gears on a borrowed KTM in the air between 2 small jumps. On the face of the next jump, instead of 55hp I got nothing. I nose dived into the landing ramp and managed not to crash the bike but the impact broke my arm.

Riding on a race track and riding on the street are two different things. On the race track your proficiency and decision making determine your safety. Same goes for flying. If you're not rusty and/or stupid you'll be safe. Riding a motorcycle on the street you can be as smart and as proficient as possible but you still run the risk of getting plowed by a mini van.
 
Bob Noel said:
I have a motorcycle and a hybrid (Mercury Mariner).

The motorcycle costs more per year just in insurance than I save in gas.

Add to that the risks* I take riding the motorcycle and I most definitely do not come out ahead economically. Wrt coming out ahead environmentally, what is the carbon footprint of having two vehicles vs just one?

*risks, not because I'm a daredevil, but because of all the drivers out there that are idiots and hit bikes.
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I don't disagree with you on the economics of full size motorcycles, but we are talking about scooters here, and the presumption that most of your driving/commute needs can be met by a scooter.

denverpilot said:
I've run the math on that for my commute.

It takes a very long time to recoup the acquisition costs on the scooter when you factor in all costs including maintenance and insurance. Licensing costs also have to be accounted for if you go above a 49cc engine here. Also have to remove a couple of months (at least) of usefulness in colder climates like Denver, depending on your tolerance for cold.

Environmentally it's good. Economically it's meh. Not that great.

Then there's safety which can't be measured monetarily, except for amortizing in proper safety gear (helmet / whatever else you deem suitable to wear to save your body in an accident), if you're a new rider or coming back to it sans-gear. That gear also has to be added to the price that needs to be recovered to break even.

My math showed that I'd be better off saving up to buy a full-sized motorcycle and filing it under the fiscal category "wants a new toy" than purchasing a scooter for any primarily economic/ecological reasons.

Now if you like scooters and riding them anyway, you can't put a price on the enjoyment... just like aircraft.

Buying a used scooter helps the numbers too, just like airplanes, but I suspect the MX costs could run slightly higher.
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What are you comparing it to? I did run the numbers, and a scooter is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a hybrid for the same mission, factoring in all costs. If you already have a car, and have a two mile commute, then there is no point in buying any type of additional vehicle. But that's not the point - we are assuming you are augmenting or replacing your vehicle fleet for more economical driving.

dell30rb said:
I used to race motocross and love to ride. In 6 years of racing I only broke one bone, and it was a bit of a freak accident as I didn't even crash. Hit neutral while shifting gears on a borrowed KTM in the air between 2 small jumps. On the face of the next jump, instead of 55hp I got nothing. I nose dived into the landing ramp and managed not to crash the bike but the impact broke my arm.

Riding on a race track and riding on the street are two different things. On the race track your proficiency and decision making determine your safety. Same goes for flying. If you're not rusty and/or stupid you'll be safe. Riding a motorcycle on the street you can be as smart and as proficient as possible but you still run the risk of getting plowed by a mini van.
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Yes I agree. Just to be clear, I don't get a kick out of riding scooters, although they are my primary means of transportation in Southeast Asia. In the U.S., I ride a full size motorcycle. It do it more because I can take advantage of HOV lanes (and lane splitting, in California) which very greatly reduces my trip time during commute hours. The economics don't pan out if you compare it with a Corolla or Civic. I do enough yearly mileage and long distance trips to beat out a hybrid economically, however. If all my commuting was city streets, I'd buy a scooter in a second.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't disagree with you on the economics of full size motorcycles, but we are talking about scooters here, and the presumption that most of your driving/commute needs can be met by a scooter.
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Your presumption is not valid.
 
I know my transportation needs can't be met by a scooter! I have to drive on the interstate to get to work... and to get to the airport :)
 
wsuffa said:
You'll get used to Island Time soon enough. Just call a contractor... :rofl:

In South Texas, the term is usually "mañana" as opposed to "island time" :)
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Oh, don't I know it. NOTHING happens quickly here.

That's is the island's allure...and it's curse.
 
Bob Noel said:
Your presumption is not valid.
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Not for everyone of course but for the typical hybrid or electric vehicle buyer it is. It only makes sense to buy an electric or hybrid if you live in an urban environment with lots of slow, stop and go traffic. They aren't more economical on the freeway.

I suppose if you were to only have one vehicle (how many people in the U.S. have just one?) I guess you get your Prius instead.
 
There is a common misconception that 'mañana' means tomorrow.

It actually means 'not today'.
 
Ghery said:
My wife has made it clear (she was on the back when we got hit) that buying another motorcycle would be the end of our marriage. And I'm not interested in starting over.
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Yeah, but that also means you have a marriage escape clause if you ever change your mind. ;)

:rofl:
 
Sac Arrow said:
What are you comparing it to? I did run the numbers, and a scooter is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a hybrid for the same mission, factoring in all costs. If you already have a car, and have a two mile commute, then there is no point in buying any type of additional vehicle. But that's not the point - we are assuming you are augmenting or replacing your vehicle fleet for more economical driving.
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Yes, I have a GMC Yukon and a four mile commute. Prior to this year I had a 54 mile round-trip commute on the worst possible stretch of busy Interstate for 1500 miles.

Neither a hybrid nor a scooter/bike has ever made sense for me.

I just pay the taxes for subsidies for those who can make it work only with such subsidies. ;)

It's not the being bent over getting raped so much as that Uncle Sam doesn't believe in lube.
 
denverpilot said:
I just pay the taxes for subsidies for those who can make it work only with such subsidies. ;)

It's not the being bent over getting raped so much as that Uncle Sam doesn't believe in lube.
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You have hit upon the crux of the matter. Should government be involved in picking winners, and losers in technology and the economy using our tax dollars?

Hybrid, and electrical vehicle technology MAY be our future. It may provide clean transportation with power from nuke plants or other non-fossil technology. Also, fossil fuel is continually getting cleaner. The power for the electric cars, buses, trains etc must come from somewhere. As battery technology improves, hybrid cars will also make more sense. However, should government choose this based on political favoritism, and special interest lobbying? I think not.
 
Anthony said:
You have hit upon the crux of the matter. Should government be involved in picking winners, and losers in technology and the economy using our tax dollars?
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Build "green" cars and give a temporary tax cut on them. It'll keep the buyers distracted until they see the real price tag for the next models at full price after we've banned pickup trucks. ;)

Standard government MO. Hold out a carrot while picking your pocket.

By the way, you mean money that they printed. Not our tax dollars. They ran out of my tax dollars before I was born. Certainly right now they're running on debt.

Thus, they care little about my opinion. I'm not even a source of revenue for them. I just help pay their interest payments. It only takes 40% of my income. If they want to pay down principal they'll mandate 50%.

There is no debate. Never was. I didn't vote for the kickback, and these debates on TV are always after these things happen, never before.

It's a grand show to make it look like there was a debate. Or is. The Party leadership of the two big Parties do whatever they want. There is only lip-service to the voters.

Yay. Representative Democracy. 50% of your earnings for no real say in anything. Sadly, it's better than the alternatives.
 
Anthony said:
You have hit upon the crux of the matter. Should government be involved in picking winners, and losers in technology and the economy using our tax dollars?
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Investment. It's an investment.

(and that's about as far as I'll go down that path lest it becomes SZ material)
 
Bob Noel said:
Investment. It's an investment.

(and that's about as far as I'll go down that path lest it becomes SZ material)
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Understood, but just to be clear. It is not a partisan thing, its a government thing.
 
denverpilot said:
Yeah, but that also means you have a marriage escape clause if you ever change your mind. ;)

:rofl:
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After 38 years I'm not about the try that. With my personality (I am an engineer, after all :D ) I'd be single the rest of my life.
 
ScottM said:
As long as you never really want to turn, yeah I can see that. But if you really want something designed to be fun to drive around corners then you have to go foreign.
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Fun, schmun! My Honda Civic's maneuvering ability saved my life!
 
Jay Honeck said:
Which brings up a good question: How long (years/miles) should the batteries last in a Volt/Leaf-type vehicle?
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Volt and Leaf are two different animals.

The Leaf is a battery electric vehicle.

The Volt is a plug in hybrid.

I would expect battery life issues to be significantly different.


Blatent marketing:

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

This is the battery electric version. Not the plug in hybrid which is also on the way.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Volt and Leaf are two different animals.

The Leaf is a battery electric vehicle.

The Volt is a plug in hybrid.

I would expect battery life issues to be significantly different.


Blatent marketing:

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

This is the battery electric version. Not the plug in hybrid which is also on the way.
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Little over simplified but a good way to explain it to folks.

It really has more in common with a locomotive as there is no direct link between the engine and the wheels.
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm waiting for the Ford plugin-hybrid. According to their website, it is expected fall of 2012.
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Followup:

It looks like the price of the Ford plugin hybrid will be about $39,000.

Even with a $7500 credit, that's waaaaaaaaaaay more than the comparable $23,000 Focus I would buy. And since I drive about 7,000 miles per year, there is no way to make it economically viable for me.
 
Bob Noel said:
Followup:

It looks like the price of the Ford plugin hybrid will be about $39,000.

Even with a $7500 credit, that's waaaaaaaaaaay more than the comparable $23,000 Focus I would buy. And since I drive about 7,000 miles per year, there is no way to make it economically viable for me.
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That's okay. The One (via his EPA) has just instituted costly new "anti-pollution" regulations that will make the use of our relatively cheap coal-fired power plants far more costly -- rendering the charging all those electric cars less viable.
 
I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911

I will be buying a volt. It is about 10 miles each way to work for me.
 
dennyleeb said:
I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911

I will be buying a volt. It is about 10 miles each way to work for me.
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A pro Volt vote! :D

I find it interesting people get economics confused with conservation. While the two are important considerations, evaluation of the Volt based on the amount of fuel you can buy with the difference in price is not a reasonable comparison. The cost of gas is not static, and not burning gas has its own benifits

I too will be buying an electric car, but a Prius is the obvious choice for me. Until US car makers wake up I will be buying foreign.
 
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dennyleeb said:
I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911

I will be buying a volt. It is about 10 miles each way to work for me.
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I'm amazed how people get a multinational corporation with public stock owned by anyone, anywhere, and with their product parts list sourced worldwide and final product assembly occurring in any one of a number of nation states confused with an American company :shrug:
 
dennyleeb said:
I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911
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But how long can someone reward shoddy work under the guise of patriotism? I was always a GM man. My last new GM (2009) spent 4 out of 9 months of ownership in multiple dealers' shops and was still not fixed right. Had to sell it at a huge loss because I needed a reliable vehicle. Replaced it with a new Toyota (also 2009) and it has spent 3 days in the shop in 2 1/2 years. Why should one settle for sub-standard products just because it was made by a fellow countryman? Kinda sounds a little like how Lada and Yugo were supported.
 
Yeah doesnt Toyota employ more American assembly workers than many ' American' car companies.. Besides everything is so globalized now you can't build anything exclusively and be competitive

<---<^>--->
 
Millions of consumers will buy the product that makes the most sense. If two products are equal, I will prefer to buy American -- but quality and price will always win in the marketplace. 'Twas ever thus.

Until Americans re-learn this basic economic principle, manufacturing will continue to go overseas.
 
dennyleeb said:
I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911
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Haha, my parents owned nothing but GM cars bought brand new from the dealership, and they were all pieces of crap! :rofl: I would never buy an American or Japanese car--they're just not designed for the way I drive.

At the very basic level, I require a car that is fun to drive, that means decent handling, decent amount of power, excellent braking, practical, manual transmission, sophisticated, efficient, and very supportive seats.

I just read the entire technical manual for the engine of my next car last night. It's a far cry from the dumbed down crap that's out there. :rofl:

Here you go! http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf

p.s., 9/11 wasn't caused by any automaking countries, nor would it have happened if Ronald Reagan had simply allowed the Soviet Union to slaughter the movement in it's infancy. :rolleyes:
 
Geico266 said:
I find it interesting people get economics confused with conservation. While the two are important considerations, evaluation of the Volt based on the amount of fuel you can buy with the difference in price is not a reasonable comparison. The cost of gas is not static, and not burning gas has its own benifits
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Let me repost my much earlier comment.
I have driven a Volt, and was mildly impressed.
Some will point out that a Volt gets no better mileage that a typical high-milage economy car (which is true).
Here's the thing. I'm not thinking of a Volt to 'Save the World'. The first 30 miles a day are on electricity (and most people don't drive much more than 30 miles a day).

The electricity comes from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that because it doesn't fit their narrative.
But to me, I WANT a coal powered car, so my money is going to Pennsylvania for coal, instead of going to Saudi Arabia for oil. I am interested in a Volt NOT to save the spotted baby whales, but to keep my money here.
 
MSPAviator said:
I require a car that is fun to drive, that means decent handling, decent amount of power, excellent braking, practical, manual transmission, sophisticated, efficient, and very supportive seats.

I just read the entire technical manual for the engine of my next car last night. It's a far cry from the dumbed down crap that's out there. :rofl:
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Good thing reliability wasn't one of your requirements. :rofl: The fact that the value of an Audi tanks as soon as the warranty runs out speaks volumes. Nobody can afford to fix something so "sophisticated" so often. :lol: A buddy of mine is fixing an R8 right now. Engine rattles for ten seconds after start then goes away for about an hour.:mad2: Even with factory training and diagnostic tools out the wazoo, two weeks later he's still no closer to finding the problem.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'm amazed how people get a multinational corporation with public stock owned by anyone, anywhere, and with their product parts list sourced worldwide and final product assembly occurring in any one of a number of nation states confused with an American company :shrug:
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keep telling yourself that :nonod:
 
tyndall said:
But how long can someone reward shoddy work under the guise of patriotism? I was always a GM man. My last new GM (2009) spent 4 out of 9 months of ownership in multiple dealers' shops and was still not fixed right. Had to sell it at a huge loss because I needed a reliable vehicle. Replaced it with a new Toyota (also 2009) and it has spent 3 days in the shop in 2 1/2 years. Why should one settle for sub-standard products just because it was made by a fellow countryman? Kinda sounds a little like how Lada and Yugo were supported.
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While I have no idea the kind of cars you have owned I have owned just about all types and makes from very high end German, British, American and I have no idea what you are talking about. GM has great quality vehicles.
 
MSPAviator said:
p.s., 9/11 wasn't caused by any automaking countries, nor would it have happened if Ronald Reagan had simply allowed the Soviet Union to slaughter the movement in it's infancy. :rolleyes:
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No but WWII was, and the Reagan stuff may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. We should have let the Russians take over the middle east in the 80's, that would have worked out great, YGBFKM
 
dennyleeb said:
Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911

I will be buying a volt. It is about 10 miles each way to work for me.
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You've got to be kidding me. World War II was over 65 years ago. Lots of things have changed since then. But, if we follow your logic, we shouldn't buy anything from England either then. Or Spain. Or really any of the states that decided they would make their own country. Since they all fought us too.

The problem is people who don't understand the world today and want to stand in front of progress.
 
My stepfather and I worked on a Volt and took it for a drive. The problem was that the engine wouldn't start when needed. The owner took it to the dealer and they said everything was fine. It turned out to be the "Engine Maintenance Mode" (EMM) which kept claiming that the engine was running in EMM when it wasn't. Simple problem, taken care of by a simple reset.

It drives pretty well but is similar to a Prius in handling and acceleration. I'm used to a GM I6, Ford V8, or Cummins ISB, the Volt isn't too bad compared to those. The 1.4 liter "Voltec" engine is kinda cute. I dislike the engineer's work. Engineers LOVE to bury stuff, the Volt is the perfect example. Dealer labor costs will get pricey! (most new cars are like this anyway :( )
 
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