NA/ ~Chevy Volt?~ /NA

[tyndall]

While I have no idea the kind of cars you have owned I have owned just about all types and makes from very high end German, British, American and I have no idea what you are talking about. GM has great quality vehicles.

If having to spend almost half of your time owning a vehicle stuck in rental cars and loaners equals "great quality", you have low standards.

At least I got to try most of their models for weeks at a time to see an abundance of boneheaded engineering. In over a hundred years of building vehicles, you'd think they would know that tall people adjust their seat all the way back and putting a roof reinforcement at the back of the cab that drops headroom by a few inches would be a stupid idea (full size regular cab pickup). Or big knobs on the side of the seat that break off when you get out (Canyon/Colorado). Or an engine that cools so well the heater starts blowing cold air while stopped at a light and can't even defrost the windshield unless you are moving (Canyon/Colorado). There are reasons GM is getting bashed from lifelong supporters. When a fifteen year older german car with over a hundred thousand more miles is more reliable, has lower maintenance costs, better ergonomics and equal fuel economy, something is wrong. Another is over-promising and under-delivering.

Like the 2010 Volt, introduced in 2007 with a projected price of $30k

And what we got four years later for $40k

 

[Jay Honeck]

Like the 2010 Volt, introduced in 2007 with a projected price of $30k

And what we got four years later for $40k

Wow -- that says it all, doesn't it? WTF happened?

Oh, wait -- the gummint owns GM now. D'oh!

I owned two GM vehicles in the '80s -- a Chevy S-10 Blazer, and a Pontiac Fiero. Those two vehicles made me vow to never, ever, EVER own another. And I won't. Companies that eff with their customers THAT badly do not deserve second chances.

That said -- on the other hand -- the Volt is a whole new world. With technology so different, I was prepared to give them a second chance.

Unfortunately, it's WAY overpriced -- even with a tax break.

 

[flyingron]

I am always amazed at how many people bash GM. I love GM and will always buy American over Japanese vehicles. People talk about how they do not want to send our their money to the middle east for fuel. Why do you want to send your money to the Empire of Japan? REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR AND 911

I will be buying a volt. It is about 10 miles each way to work for me.

Really, My last two Chevy trucks (a suburban and an avalanche) have had their problems, but they were not the least bit made in the US. They were both NAFTA specials manufactured in MEXICO.

My TOYOTA TUDNRA was made in TEXAS. It has had ZERO problems unlike the plethora of minor annoyances of the Chevrolet. In fact, when they shut down the Tunday line temporarily because they weren't selling, Toyota didn't lay off the workforce like GM would have done in heartbeat. They put them to work on some public works projects and kept them paid.

Still I was hung ho to get a VOLT and put in a (admittedly non-binding) wait list order for one. However, GM thought that these things were going to be hotter sellers than they ended up being and decided that even list price wasn't sufficient and shafted everybody who committed to interest in the car in advance because they thought the dealers could get MORE THAN LIST by selling them to the highest bidder without regard to the list.

They through away the chance of a sure sale with me over that one. I could have a Volt now in an instant, but why should I go with a company that would betray me in a heartbeat again?

But you go right ahead believing the illusion that GM is has the interests of America or even support of the US as a byproduct of their business. They only become an "American" manufacturer when it suits them when they need to go to the US tax coffers with the greedy hands out.

And please explain to me what the Japanese had to do with 911?

 

[ron22]

http://jalopnik.com/5870507/report-every-chevy-volt-has-over-250000-in-government-subsidies

The total amount of state and federal subsidies for each Chevy Volt sold is as much as $256,824 per vehicle according to a fiscal analysis by Michigan's Mackinac Center for Public Policy. All for a car that only costs $39,828.

 

[ron22]

My wifes last car was a GM and laster over 200K with no problems.
Her current car is a GM and has 250K on and still going.
So I have no problems with GM cars.

 

[Skylane81E]

Everyone will have storys about bad cars from one brand or another.

Me? I've lapped italian exotics on the race track with my "bad handeling" Dodge and spent less time working on my Saturn than on Angies Toyota.

If these storys really mattered then my 4400lb wagon is faster and handles better than a late model Ferrari and my GM performance devison econobox is more reliable than a corolla.

You decide...

 

[W. Stewart]

For me, the ultimate one vehicle would be a compact diesel truck (esp if Supercab). Why doesn't VW or Isuzu offer one (like an upgrade to the old VW Rabbit Truck from the 70's, now with the TDI).

Wells

 

[Anthony]

Lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, and other parts of the world. Diesel engine technology has become much cleaner. I don't know why they are not offered here.

TDI VW Jettas get over 40 MPG. My friends TDI Beetle could go over 800 miles on a single tank.

 

[Skylane81E]

Lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, and other parts of the world. Diesel engine technology has become much cleaner. I don't know why they are not offered here.

TDI VW Jettas get over 40 MPG. My friends TDI Beetle could go over 800 miles on a single tank.

And that is why the folks a top gear hate hybrids, a diesel does better with out batteries and the like.

What id like is a diesel electric car like the volt,

Wait top gear made one and it killed green stig...

 

[Jay Honeck]

Lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, and other parts of the world. Diesel engine technology has become much cleaner. I don't know why they are not offered here.

Prolly has something to do with that $1/gallon price differential between diesel and gas. There is no real savings at the consumer level, despite the great mileage.

It's funny -- in aviation, gasoline costs more than Jet-A. In automobiles, that relationship is reversed. Economies of scale, I presume.

 

[alaskaflyer]

And that is why the folks a top gear hate hybrids, a diesel does better with out batteries and the like.

What id like is a diesel electric car like the volt,

Wait top gear made one and it killed green stig...

Actually apples to apples they don't do better unless everything between one driveway and the other is open highway. Add the price spread between gasoline and diesel fuel for the foreseeable future and the economics doesn't pencil out in favor of small TDI diesels over hybrids except for the unusual user. Really the only diesel we are talking about for now is the VW, so you'd have to want a VW. On the other hand there are a number of hybrid options.

 

[Doggtyred]

Prolly has something to do with that $1/gallon price differential between diesel and gas. There is no real savings at the consumer level, despite the great mileage.

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

 

[Skylane81E]

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

27 cents at curent 93 prices

 

[PilotAlan]

Lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, and other parts of the world. Diesel engine technology has become much cleaner. I don't know why they are not offered here.

Thank the Feds.
The new requirements for reduction of nitrides of oxygen are almost impossible for a diesel to meet without a catalytic converter-type emission control, which is very difficult and expensive to make for a diesel engine.

The Feds say they want to reduce gas usage, but they have done everything they can to kill diesels in this country.
New heavy duty diesels now have to have a second tank holding uric acid which is injected into the engine. Expensive, damages paint and metal, and if you run out then the engine goes into "limp home" mode. And it's more systems to maintain.

New truck sales have plummeted, people are rebuilding older ones rather than buy new and deal with the "diesel emission fluid" issues. Truck and engine manufacturers are laying people off because sales are in the tank.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Thank the Feds.
The new requirements for reduction of nitrides of oxygen are almost impossible for a diesel to meet without a catalytic converter-type emission control, which is very difficult and expensive to make for a diesel engine.

The Feds say they want to reduce gas usage, but they have done everything they can to kill diesels in this country.
New heavy duty diesels now have to have a second tank holding uric acid which is injected into the engine. Expensive, damages paint and metal, and if you run out then the engine goes into "limp home" mode. And it's more systems to maintain.

New truck sales have plummeted, people are rebuilding older ones rather than buy new and deal with the "diesel emission fluid" issues. Truck and engine manufacturers are laying people off because sales are in the tank.

I recently saw that "diesel emission fluid" for sale in a local store, and actually thought it was a joke.

It is -- but the owners don't think so.

 

[Jay Honeck]

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

I have no idea. I don't drive enough to care.

 

[alaskaflyer]

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

A little over 8 cents a mile in the Prius V at Reno 87 octane prices.

 

[Steve Foley]

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

Zero.

I've never paid for fuel for your Jetta.

 

[SCCutler]

Zero.

I've never paid for fuel for your Jetta.

I SO wanted to do that!

 

[Gary]

Lots of diesel vehicles in Europe, and other parts of the world. Diesel engine technology has become much cleaner. I don't know why they are not offered here.

TDI VW Jettas get over 40 MPG. My friends TDI Beetle could go over 800 miles on a single tank.

Did decide to go with a 2012 Golf TDI for the wife, she loves it!! Routinely see +/- 40 MPG around town, upper 40's with highway driving. That does depend on how fast one wants to drive, might see 50+MPG at 60 MPH, BUT drops off pretty sharply past 70 MPH.

Prolly has something to do with that $1/gallon price differential between diesel and gas. There is no real savings at the consumer level, despite the great mileage.

It's funny -- in aviation, gasoline costs more than Jet-A. In automobiles, that relationship is reversed. Economies of scale, I presume.

Here in SE PA, diesel is selling at a $0.30 to 0.50/gallon premium. Maybe I should start running Jet-A in the Golf!

My fuel cost in my Jetta is 9.5-10 cents per mile at current diesel prices. What's yours??

That seems about right.

Then again, a diesel TDI Golf sells for a $3500 premium over the gas engine, but you do get a few upgrades in options for the car when you get the TDI package. We will probably have to drive it 60,000 miles before we will see a true savings, certainly doable. Overall, the Golf is a very high quality, peppy, fun to drive and economical car. We did look at the new Honda Civic - wasn't impressed, they did seem to "cheapen" up the Civic, didn't drive as well and the quality of materials was lower then what we've seen in past Honda's.

Gary

 

[Anthony]

Gary,

Glad to hear it is working out for you. I like the VW's but have heard of maintenance issues. Please keep us posted on you/your wife's experience with the Golf.

I wish they'd offer a diesel here in the U.S. for a Jeep. Seems a perfect solution for that vehicle.

 

[Skylane81E]

Gary,

Glad to hear it is working out for you. I like the VW's but have heard of maintenance issues. Please keep us posted on you/your wife's experience with the Golf.

I wish they'd offer a diesel here in the U.S. for a Jeep. Seems a perfect solution for that vehicle.

They used too, emission requirements killed the CRD (as did poor performance from lack of turbocharging)

 

[Anthony]

They used too, emission requirements killed the CRD (as did poor performance from lack of turbocharging)

So you are saying we can't get more fuel efficient vehicles to help reduce our dependance on foreign oil because of some increased emission requirements, mandated soley by the EPA with no vote by our elected representatives? So we have NO say in these unreasonable, and costly environmental regulations?

Hmmm. Sounds dictatorial to me. You sure this is the U.S.?

 

[GeorgeC]

That would be nice. I saw a lot of CNG cars in Argentina. I suppose marginal improvements with proven technology lack the sex appeal of a Great Leap Forward.

Another reason to push for NG powered vehicles, the US would be an exporter.

 

[PilotAlan]

They used too, emission requirements killed the CRD (as did poor performance from lack of turbocharging)

Yep. The Common Rail Diesel Jeep Liberty was a great vehicle. It got 50% better mileage than the gas version.
The diesel NOx emissions requirements killed it.
They set the NOx requirement just lower than it was physically possible for a diesel to make, even though every other measure of emissions was lower (CO, CO2, smog compounds, etc) and its fuel economy was significantly better.

As an author once wrote:
"Businesses live or die by cost benefit analyses. If they don't they go out of business.
Only in government is any benefit, no matter how small, worth any cost, no matter how great."

I would add that this is even more true when the cost is paid for with someone else's money.

 

[alaskaflyer]

So you are saying we can't get more fuel efficient vehicles to help reduce our dependance on foreign oil because of some increased emission requirements, mandated soley by the EPA with no vote by our elected representatives? So we have NO say in these unreasonable, and costly environmental regulations?

Hmmm. Sounds dictatorial to me. You sure this is the U.S.?

You had an opportunity for a say, first when the legislation authorizing rulemaking was passed by your elected representatives, and secondly during the NPRM. Tell me you exercised it.

 

[Anthony]

My legislators, all Republicans, voted against it.

So you are OK with not allowing more fuel efficient vehicles for a very small increase in some pollutant because some technical rule making scheme was passed. Guess you're for GA being shut down due to 100LL Mr. Alaska. Right?

Lame.

 

[alaskaflyer]

My legislators, all Republicans, voted against it.

So you are OK with not allowing more fuel efficient vehicles for a very small increase in some pollutant because some technical rule making scheme was passed. Guess you're for GA being shut down due to 100LL Mr. Alaska. Right?

Lame.

That's quite a stretch based on a post simply challenging your assertion that we had "no say."

Diesel has a number of issues and it doesn't suprise me that recent administrations are steering the ship towards different "fuel efficient" alternatives, regardless if I personally agree with it.

 

[denverpilot]

GM stock closed recently at $20.50. Treasury needs it to hit $53 to just break even on the $50B bailout.

Nothing to see here, move along.




GM is still as dead as they were the day they took their bailout.

 

[Dr. O]

The history of automobiles is littered with the remains of companies that had a better idea - except the public did not buy into their idea...
When the alternative power car can run down the expressway for 400 miles at 70mph. Pull into the "gas station" and in 10 minutes be "refueled" and back on the road I will buy an alternative car, but not until...
Battery power may be perfect for Jay there on the island where all of his driving is just a few miles round trip... What he needs is a really fast golf cart...

The car that was being built in Owosso, Michigan would be perfect for Jay...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HOClwY6SNc
Maybe he can find one.

denny-o

 

[Bob Noel]

When the alternative power car can run down the expressway for 400 miles at 70mph. Pull into the "gas station" and in 10 minutes be "refueled" and back on the road I will buy an alternative car, but not until...

Quite a few regular gas cars today can't go 400 miles at 70mph before refueling.

I'd say your benchmark is artificially high.