NA/ ~Chevy Volt?~ /NA

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
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Has anyone actually seen one of these electric wonders from Gummint Motors? Maybe driven one?

Any PIREPs?

Now that we're getting near the end of the first model year, prices should be coming down, and all the "first year bugs" should be known.

There's one on Ebay right now.
 
Why?

It doesn't make financial sense.

It is far from proven.

Who knows what the MX costs will be down the road?

Unless you just like it. Personally it has no real value. For the price difference between a gas car, you can buy 200,000+ miles of fuel. And have no unknowns.
 
n20junkie said:
Why?

It doesn't make financial sense.

It is far from proven.
Click to expand...

The best-selling car at the turn of the century -- the TWENTIETH century -- was electric.

http://news.yahoo.com/smithsonian-shows-100-years-electric-cars-past-071310932.html

We've had 107 years since the Columbia was the best selling car in America. My driving habits match the capabilities of an electric car perfectly. I want one, and I am sick of waiting for the auto manufacturers to reinvent the wheel.

The Volt looks promising, but as a rule I don't buy ANYTHING the first year it's out. I'm just looking for some real-world PIREPs on the new GM product.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Has anyone actually seen one of these electric wonders from Gummint Motors? Maybe driven one?
Click to expand...

I saw one going down the interstate right as they were coming out - probably in May. Made a couple of pic's with my iPhone while I was driving. Nice looking car.

Haven't seen one since.
 
Sat in one, don't know anyone who has one, but the reviews are excellent.

Still.

You could buy a *lot* of gas for the difference between the price of this car and many reasonably-comparable conventional ones.
 
A guy my wife works with just got one. She got a ride in it the other day, says it's OK. A fully charged battery will get you 35 miles, then the gas engine will kick in to turn a generator that powers the electric engine. It will get about another 375 miles on the gas, roughly 35mpg. I looked on-line to get an idea of the price. Runs about $40K, but you get a $7500 tax credit.
 
Why don't Volt drivers want to pay their fair share in taxes?

They must be evil greedy Capitalists or something! ;)

:popcorn:
 
If they made sense, they would sell. They don't make sense, even with the $7500 government subsidy, so they are not selling. The market in action, as it should be folks.

Biggest flop in GM history. America's Trabant. (To be fair to the Trabant, they sold, but that was because it was all you were allowed to buy)
 
I signed an early commitment for one of these (I was under #8000), but GM decided they could rape more money out of these cars that were getting very popular at the time of release by selling them over sticker price for whatever they could get rather than honoring the commitment list. I can tell you that for the first time in 20 years, my next car will NOT be a GM.
 
I'd buy a Prius or a Leaf before I bought a GM product.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The best-selling car at the turn of the century -- the TWENTIETH century -- was electric.
Click to expand...
That has nothing to do with Volt, which is not an electric car. It's a PHEV like a modded Prius, only much worse in every concievable respect except the battery range, which is equally pathetic on both: something like 11 miles vs. 13 miles. If you want an electric car, you should buy Leaf (or a Tesla Roadster if you can find one). CR reliability on Volt was average, Cruze's worse than average (same chassis). GM also promises an electric Spark, but like Toyota's electic RAV4 it's a pure government mandate vehicle. Those are going to be even rarer than Roadster.

P.S. I bought a union-made bailoutmobile in 2010, loving it. Gets 18 mpg steadily in both city and highway driving.
 
zaitcev said:
That has nothing to do with Volt, which is not an electric car. It's a PHEV like a modded Prius, only much worse in every concievable respect except the battery range, which is equally pathetic on both: something like 11 miles vs. 13 miles. If you want an electric car, you should buy Leaf (or a Tesla Roadster if you can find one). CR reliability on Volt was average, Cruze's worse than average (same chassis). GM also promises an electric Spark, but like Toyota's electic RAV4 it's a pure government mandate vehicle. Those are going to be even rarer than Roadster.

P.S. I bought a union-made bailoutmobile in 2010, loving it. Gets 18 mpg steadily in both city and highway driving.
Click to expand...

Don't hear much about the Leaf, either, for whatever reason.

I am really surprised. Down here, golf carts are everywhere on the road. If you can make a golf cart work for 90% of your driving, you would think an electric car would be a natural.

That price tag is stopping me -- for now. That, and no long-term experience.
 
One of the other skippers at the yacht club has one and loves it.

Now, the Volt isn't really an "electric car" - it is a series plugin hybrid - once you pull the battery down, the gas engine fires up to keep you going. Putzing around on the island, you are not likely to ever run the engine. But you can take it for longer trips if necessary.

The Nissan Leaf, on the other hand, is battery electric only. Once the battery goes down, you ain't going nowhere for the next several hours...
 
The problem, as always, is that the hybrids are great for a very limited subset of driving - but folks buy them because of the "feel-good" factor.

There would be no Prius in the USA without the tax credits granted by the federal and California state governments. There may be others.

Their technology is remarkable, and (in the right scenarios) they are efficient, but few analyses consider the overall life-cycle impact of these vehicles.

Jay - I bet you'd be better-served by just buying a robust golf car for your runnin' around the island stuff, and a fuel-efficient conventional car for the rest. Probably cost you less up front.

Also, ask yourself: "Self, do I believe that I'll be able to drive my (insert name of proposed hybrid auto) for 250,000 miles?" Odds do not favor it, without some amazing MX expenses down the road.

---

Bill: For you, a question.

Premise: GM has benefited from ridiculous favoritism from the feds, including pretty much being forced to lay down and spread 'em for the UAW.

Question: Do you seriously consider that to be worse than the essentially-perpetual subsidy that the Japanese carmakers have had from the Japanese government?
 
I have driven a Volt, and was mildly impressed.
Some will point out that a Volt gets no better mileage that a typical high-milage economy car (which is true).
Here's the thing. I'm not thinking of a Volt to 'Save the World'. The first 30 miles a day are on electricity (and most people don't drive much more than 30 miles a day).

The electricity come from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that.
But to me, I WANT a coal powered car, so my money is going to Pennsylvania for coal, instead of going to Saudi Arabia for oil. I am interested in a Volt NOT to save the spotted baby whales, but to keep my money here.
 
PilotAlan said:
I have driven a Volt, and was mildly impressed.
Some will point out that a Volt gets no better mileage that a typical high-milage economy car (which is true).
Here's the thing. I'm not thinking of a Volt to 'Save the World'. The first 30 miles a day are on electricity (and most people don't drive much more than 30 miles a day).

The electricity come from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that.
But to me, I WANT a coal powered car, so my money is going to Pennsylvania for coal, instead of going to Saudi Arabia for oil. I am interested in a Volt NOT to save the spotted baby whales, but to keep my money here.
Click to expand...

Interesting thought. I never looked at it that way. Another reason to push for NG powered vehicles, the US would be an exporter.

Your money for fuel may be staying even closer to home, you are probably getting Wyoming coal.
 
PilotAlan said:
The electricity come from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that.
But to me, I WANT a coal powered car, so my money is going to Pennsylvania for coal, instead of going to Saudi Arabia for oil.
Click to expand...

You should get one of these; oldest automobile running anywhere in the world; predates gasoline powered cars:

 
PilotAlan said:
I have driven a Volt, and was mildly impressed.
Some will point out that a Volt gets no better mileage that a typical high-milage economy car (which is true).
Here's the thing. I'm not thinking of a Volt to 'Save the World'. The first 30 miles a day are on electricity (and most people don't drive much more than 30 miles a day).

The electricity come from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that.
But to me, I WANT a coal powered car, so my money is going to Pennsylvania for coal, instead of going to Saudi Arabia for oil. I am interested in a Volt NOT to save the spotted baby whales, but to keep my money here.
Click to expand...

Like Alan sez! :)
 
I'm holding out for a car that runs on politician's hot air. A truly untapped and endlessly renewable resource! :)
 
PilotAlan said:
The electricity come from coal or natural gas fired plants, so essentially, the Volt is a coal powered car. Greenies ignore that.
Click to expand...

But if the car is charged at night (and, yes, I realize that's a "big if"), then environmentally speaking the fuel is free because there is a lot of electicity on the grid that's simply wasted at night. It's generated but not used.

Somewhere around 75% of the cars on the road today could be powered electrically with the existing electrical generation/distribution infrastructure IF they were charged at night.

The power companies would LOVE it because they would sell A LOT of electricity that they're currently generating anyway but not selling.
 
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timwinters said:
But if the car is charged at night (and, yes, I realize that's a "big if"), then environmentally speaking the fuel is free because there is a lot of electicity on the grid that's simply wasted at night. It's generated but not used.

Somewhere around 75% of the cars on the road today could be powered electrically with the existing electrical generation/distribution infrastructure IF they were charged at night.

The power companies would LOVE it because they would sell A LOT of electricity that they're currently generating anyway but not selling.
Click to expand...

Where does it go?
 
timwinters said:
But if the car is charged at night (and, yes, I realize that's a "big if"), then environmentally speaking the fuel is free because there is a lot of electicity on the grid that's simply wasted at night. It's generated but not used.
Click to expand...

Overnight, they throttle down the natural gas powered plants, some hydro plants, and then the coal fired plants. The nuke plants are rarely throttled back. The order of the plants they throttle back is directly related to how easy/hard it is to dial 'em back (with the exception of Nukes, which can be throttled, but that just wastes fuel).

So there is unused capacity, but not wasted electricity.
 
It would seem to me we'd be able to design an electric car that could get more than 40 miles on a charge. Something that would be able to recharge itself while under braking or coasting downhill.
There is no existing infrastructure to recharge electrics anywhere but at home. A pure electric is impractical (think of the people in the NE who may be without electricity for days to come!).
On another note, I love watching these folks in their hybrids blasting by me at 80-90 miles an hour on the highway. Do they really think they are saving a thing doing that?
 
silver-eagle said:
It would seem to me we'd be able to design an electric car that could get more than 40 miles on a charge.
Click to expand...

We can. It just takes bigger batteries.

Something that would be able to recharge itself while under braking or coasting downhill.
Click to expand...

Every hybrid that I am aware of uses regenerative braking.

There is no existing infrastructure to recharge electrics anywhere but at home. A pure electric is impractical (think of the people in the NE who may be without electricity for days to come!).
On another note, I love watching these folks in their hybrids blasting by me at 80-90 miles an hour on the highway. Do they really think they are saving a thing doing that?
Click to expand...

I don't know what they think. I am not psychic.
 
kyleb said:
So there is unused capacity, but not wasted electricity.
Click to expand...

You're right, I misspoke. Middle of a sleepless night syndrome. Most plants are throttled down and not all the excess power is grounded out nor are all the turbines bypassed. Though I believe some of both occurs.

Still, electric cars being charged at night are a wet dream for power companies.
 
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timwinters said:
You're right, I misspoke. Middle of a sleepless night syndrome. Most plants are throttled down and not all the excess power is grounded out nor are all the turbines bypassed. Though I believe some of both occurs.

Still, electric cars being charged at night are a wet dream for power companies.
Click to expand...

For my type of driving (and, I believe, for most people) your "charge-overnight" model is exactly what would work best.

We rarely drive on the island, because we live and work in the geographic center of the only city on the island. As such, everything is walkable (which is why we bought this particular hotel, BTW) -- the beach, the bars, the restaurants, live music -- it's all nearby. (Quite a pleasant change of lifestyle, for us, BTW. I highly recommend it.)

When we do drive on the island, it's usually to the airport -- less than 2 miles.
Our other usual trip is across the ferry to Lowe's in Aransas Pass -- about 12 miles. Both of these trips are tailor-made for an electric car, and I could recharge the thing overnight, just like a golf cart.

If they could get the price down to where it should be -- LESS than an internal combustion engine-powered car -- I think they would sell millions of the things.
 
Jay Honeck said:
If they could get the price down to where it should be -- LESS than an internal combustion engine-powered car -- I think they would sell millions of the things.
Click to expand...

I agree the price is too high. But for many people with electric cars, they will actually need two cars, one electric and one combustion for trips beyond the pure electric vehicle's range.

The Volt is brilliant (in my view) in that it provides the advantages of both.
Coal power for short trips, gas for long trips. If you factor in the idea that it's two cars (in some respects), then it starts making sense.

The disadvantages are:
1 - It's GM, with all that implies (incredibly poor quality across the fleet as a whole, and Government Motors)
2 - It's too darned expensive.

I hear they're working on bringing down the price for 2012.
If it was a Ford, I'd buy one.
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm waiting for the Ford plugin-hybrid. According to their website, it is expected fall of 2012.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I have not owned a GM car since my Pontiac Fiero (1986) and Chevy Blazer (1985). Both were so incredibly bad, that I simply have not been able to bring myself to give them more of my money.

Still...the Volt is such a great idea, I would LOVE for it to work. But there is no way I'm paying $30K+ for a subcompact GM car. I don't care if it's powered by nuclear fusion -- it's overpriced.
 
SCCutler said:
There would be no Prius in the USA without the tax credits granted by the federal and California state governments. There may be others.
Click to expand...

In California and Virginia (and, i suspect, some other states) hybrids are given access to the carpool lanes even if they're sole-occupant. In the DC area, this has resulted in enough additional single-occupant cars in the carpool lanes as to render the lanes ineffective for their intended purpose. And "hybrids" include, in Virginia, even the larger Toyota crossover SUVs. A gasoline Honda Civic with 2 people (meeting the carpool rules) will provide better "miles/gallon/passenger" than most, if not all, the hybrids that carry one occupant.

I won't even discuss the federal employees that get to commute to work in their government cars and ignore the carpool restrictions.
 
Our local electric company has a deal going on - I'm not sure for how long. But they subsidize charging stations where you can plug in for free. There are two stations where my wife works, and so far there are two Volts that use them each day.

I think prices will drop as soon as the tax credit goes away. My guess is the price will fall to the same level it is now AFTER the tax credit.
 
wsuffa said:
In California and Virginia (and, i suspect, some other states) hybrids are given access to the carpool lanes even if they're sole-occupant. In the DC area, this has resulted in enough additional single-occupant cars in the carpool lanes as to render the lanes ineffective for their intended purpose. And "hybrids" include, in Virginia, even the larger Toyota crossover SUVs. A gasoline Honda Civic with 2 people (meeting the carpool rules) will provide better "miles/gallon/passenger" than most, if not all, the hybrids that carry one occupant.

I won't even discuss the federal employees that get to commute to work in their government cars and ignore the carpool restrictions.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure they did away with that HOV exemption, so if you by a "clean" car now you don't get the HOV plates. They finally figured out that the main purpose of the HOV lanes was to reduce the number of cars, not to make the world greener.

And yes, the federal L/E types driving their G-cars in HOV is a travesty.
 
wsuffa said:
In California and Virginia (and, i suspect, some other states) hybrids are given access to the carpool lanes even if they're sole-occupant.
Click to expand...
California's yellow stickers for hybrids have expired. They can no longer drive in HOV or diamond lanes.
 
They're phasing out the "clean fuels" exemption in Virginia but it's not gone yet. Hopefully by next summer.
 
I think the key to making electric cars truly practical will be:

1. Getting the range up to 200 miles or, hopefully, more
and
2. Having "battery swap-out" stations. Standardized battery packs that are simply R&R'ed at "service stations". Slide out the dead one, slide in the charged one, pay for the "fill up" and hit the highway.

As an aside, there's some neat potential of having electric cars sitting in garages all across the nation.

1. They could be used as a UPS for the house.
2. There's the idea of V2G; a system in which the vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
 
Jay, the Volt might just be a good answer for you there on the island...
I'm an old GM car engineer type (pre gummint motors, that is) and I would not be afraid of the Volt... If there are warranty issues you have the full faith and credit of the US taxpayer backing GM - hard to get deeper pockets than that... And the Volt is the pet project of Washington so GM will get what it needs...
I just had both Chevy Duramax trucks to the dealer last week for scheduled service - has not cost me a penny so far... While there I walked around the Volt - kinda cute... It wouldn't be a good choice for me because it is a 40 mile round trip to go to town for a pack of chewing gum - and I often have 15 or 20 thousand pounds hooked behind, which might be a bit hard on the battery...
What electric car owners have to do is pressure Washington for a reduction in their electric cost if they use a module that charges the cars after midnight when current draw on the grid is way down and the generators are idling (which is inefficient)...

As far as those ranting that they would never buy GM - you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't agree that foreign iron is actually better <shrug> and I cannot get a foreign pickup that can pull the beavertail with a backhoe up top...

denny-o
 
timwinters said:
I think the key to making electric cars truly practical will be:

1. Getting the range up to 200 miles or, hopefully, more
and
2. Having "battery swap-out" stations. Standardized battery packs that are simply R&R'ed at "service stations". Slide out the dead one, slide in the charged one, pay for the "fill up" and hit the highway.

As an aside, there's some neat potential of having electric cars sitting in garages all across the nation.

1. They could be used as a UPS for the house.
2. There's the idea of V2G; a system in which the vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
Click to expand...

I feel like this would be an issue down the road as some batteries age. When they get older they don't hold as much of a charge so my "fill up" would be less. And I'm all for trading out my used up battery for a new one for only the cost of the charge down the line.
 
timwinters said:
I think the key to making electric cars truly practical will be:

1. Getting the range up to 200 miles or, hopefully, more
Click to expand...

That doesn't seem to be the consensus of those who are paid to study this sort of thing.

100+ miles is just too heavy, too expensive, and doesn't pay back over the life of the vehicle.

The plug-in hybrid with a range on the order of 50 or so miles seems to be a good tradeoff for cost / utility / overall fuel usage.


2. There's the idea of V2G; a system in which the vehicles communicate with the power grid to sell demand response services by either delivering electricity into the grid or by throttling their charging rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
Click to expand...

Great idea. Until, of course, you need to drive to work in the morning.
 
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