NA Adding an outlet to a bathroom

Half Fast said:
Well, I disagree with that. I certainly want to find out if the ground is missing. The little tester will show the missing ground and not trip the GFCI when the circuit might be "safe" (see below), but it can't yield a false indication of a safe circuit when it isn't. Therefore I see it as a feature, not a problem.
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The tester can show if there is nothing connected tot he ground pin. It has no clue if the thing connected to the ground pin is an actual low impedance path back to the service disconnect (as it is required to be) or some booted grounded conductor.

You sound like you have just enough information on things to be dangerous, without understanding the true electrical safety requirements and the reasons behind them. I've been working on code requirements on Army bases, large state University systems, and through several houses that I have built. There are definite code requirements that exist and they come much like the provisions of FARS...written in blood in some fatal situation that had previously happened.
 
flyingron said:
The tester can show if there is nothing connected tot he ground pin. It has no clue if the thing connected to the ground pin is an actual low impedance path back to the service disconnect (as it is required to be) or some booted grounded conductor.
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You have this backwards. The device doesn't know if there's anything connected to the ground screw. It knows if there's a continuous path between the outlet ground and the panel ground. Testing the ground impedance is certainly more complicated, and also irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that the plug-in tester will tell you if a fault at the downstream outlet will trip the GFCI and pushing the GFCI test button will not.
 
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Lindberg said:
You have this backwards. The device doesn't know if there's anything connected to the ground screw. It knows if there's a continuous path between the outlet ground and the panel ground. Testing the ground impedance is certainly more complicated, and also irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that the plug-in tester will tell you if a fault at the downstream other will trip the GFCI and pushing the GFCI test button will not.
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No, I mean what I said. If the ground is simply open, that's easy to detect. What you don't know if that pin is merely at close to ground potential or whether it's got it's own low impedance path back to ground. I've taken apart "retrofitted" houses so many times to find that the person has jumped the ground to the grounded conductor (natural). The tester has no way of detecting this. It takes someone who knows what the fudge they are doing to put their eyeballs on the connections.
 
flyingron said:
The tester can show if there is nothing connected tot he ground pin. It has no clue if the thing connected to the ground pin is an actual low impedance path back to the service disconnect (as it is required to be) or some booted grounded conductor.
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Yes, but that's not the point of this discussion. Ground impedance is not what we're trying to determine with the tester. If the tester, plugged into a downstream receptacle, is able to trip the GFCI, we know it's safe in the event of a ground fault. If it doesn't trip it, we know we need to investigate further.

That's more information than we can get by only pushing the GFCI button.

flyingron said:
No, I mean what I said. If the ground is simply open, that's easy to detect. What you don't know if that pin is merely at close to ground potential or whether it's got it's own low impedance path back to ground. I've taken apart "retrofitted" houses so many times to find that the person has jumped the ground to the grounded conductor (natural). The tester has no way of detecting this. It takes someone who knows what the fudge they are doing to put their eyeballs on the connections.
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This is true, but OT for this thread. You're advocating doing nothing other than pushing the GFCI button, not "putting eyeballs on the connections." That "easy to detect" open ground you mention won't be detected at all if you do nothing. The tester will indicate that and compel further investigation.


flyingron said:
You sound like you have just enough information on things to be dangerous, without understanding the true electrical safety requirements and the reasons behind them. I've been working on code requirements on Army bases, large state University systems, and through several houses that I have built.
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I'm sure you've done much more with building wiring than I have. My experience has mostly been with designing missiles, seekers, airborne electro-optics, etc. But your statement that
flyingron said:
Using the button IS A SUFFICIENT TEST. This is the way the GFCI passed its listing. The TEST button works the same for the pins on the receptales as it does for the load terminals. Just what do you think your tester is doing differently? It's doing a less reliable induction of a ground fault.
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is somewhat misleading. Using the tester downstream provides us more information and thus more certainty, as I've shown, and certainly does no harm.
 
@SixPapaCharlie this may help you...

The following is from The American Electricians Handbook (1942) A Reference Book for Practical Electrical Workers. Terrell Croft, consulting engineer. McGraw Hill Book Company, Inc, New York and London 1942

Electricians often test circuits for the presence of voltage touching the conductors with the fingers. This method is safe where the voltage does not exceed 250 and is often very convenient for locating a blown-out fuse or for ascertaining whether or not a circuit is alive. Some men can endure the electric shock that results without discomfort whereas others cannot. Therefore, the method is not feasible in some cases. Which are the outside wires and which is the neutral wire of a 115/230 volt three wire system can be determined in this way by noting the intensity of the shock that results by touching different pairs of wires with the fingers. Use the method with caution and be certain that the voltage of the circuit does not exceed 250 before touching the conductors.

The presence of low voltages can be determined by testing. The method is feasible only where the pressure is but a few volts and hence is used only in bell and signal work. Where the voltage is very low, the bared ends of the conductors constituting the 2 sides of the circuit are held a short distance apart on the tongue. If voltage is present a peculiar mildly burning sensation result, which will never be forgotten after one has experienced it. The taste is due to the electrolytic decomposition of the liquids on the tongue which produces a salt having a taste. With voltages of 4 or 5 volts, due to as many cells of a battery, it is best to test for the presence of voltage by holding one of the bared conductors in the hand an touching the other to the tongue. Where a terminal of the battery is grounded, often a taste can be detected by standing on moist ground and touching a conductor from the other battery terminal to the tongue. Care should be exercised to prevent the 2 conductor ends from touching each other at the tongue, for it they do a spark can result that may burn.

RESUSCITATION FROM ELECTRIC SHOCK By Frederick Koliz, MD

1st. Lay the patient on his back, 2 Move the tongue back and forth in the mouth by seizing it with a handkerchief or the fingers, while working the arms to induce respiration. 3. Don’t pour anything down the patient’s throat. 4. Try to cause the patient to gasp by inserting the first and second fingers in the rectum, and pressing them suddenly and forcibly toward the back. 5. If possible, procure oxygen gas, and try to get it into the lungs during the efforts at artificial respiration. --205.188.xxx.x
 
NoBShere said:
@SixPapaCharlie

Electricians often test circuits for the presence of voltage touching the conductors with the fingers. This method is safe where the voltage does not exceed 250 and is often very convenient for locating a blown-out fuse or for ascertaining whether or not a circuit is alive.
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When I was taking a basic electricty class in high school, the teacher said he didn't recommend that method, but if used always touch with the back of the fingers so muscular contraction jerks you away from the conductor. Touching with the front of the hand can cause an involuntary clenching of the wire. I concluded that use of a VOM made a lot more sense.
NoBShere said:
Where the voltage is very low, the bared ends of the conductors constituting the 2 sides of the circuit are held a short distance apart on the tongue.
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That is still my preferred way to test 9v batteries.
 
GaryM said:
When I was taking a basic electricty class in high school, the teacher said he didn't recommend that method, but if used always touch with the back of the fingers so muscular contraction jerks you away from the conductor. Touching with the front of the hand can cause an involuntary clenching of the wire.
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In the Police Academy, we were warned that homeowners and store owners had been known to electrify doorknobs as a burglary deterrent. As such, we were advised to brush doorknobs lightly with the back of our hands before grabbing them, and it became a habit to do so.
 
FastEddieB said:
In the Police Academy, we were warned that homeowners and store owners had been known to electrify doorknobs as a burglary deterrent. As such, we were advised to brush doorknobs lightly with the back of our hands before grabbing them, and it became a habit to do so.
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I think I prefer the Kevin McAllister technique....

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I don’t think OP has been back since he started adding the new outlet. Hope he secured power at the breaker before stabbing that outlet.
 
Yep saw an electrician bumping some cut wires with his knuckles. This one hot, this one not. If I tried it, it probably would have been my first back flip.
 
Mikey52 said:
Yep saw an electrician bumping some cut wires with his knuckles. This one hot, this one not. If I tried it, it probably would have been my first back flip.
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I worked with a guy who tested stuff that way: little finger on ground, thumb of same hand tapping suspected hot. This was in '79 or '80. I though and think that he's nuts. But at least he didn't let it pass through his heart by using two hands to test.
 
Half Fast said:
Actual panel from the Haitian hospital we were renovating:



Yes, that is indeed lamp cord spliced with electrical tape. I was amazed the place could have the lights on without also being on fire.
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I have MANY pictures like that or worse from around the world. :D
 
Question.

I am diving into this tonight.

Since the GFCI (Outlet I want to piggyback off of) outlet already is wired to other outlets downstream, I am under the assumption that I will be "inserting" this new outlet in the sequence.
Meaning run new romex from the load out of the GFCI to the new outlet and then out from the new outlet back up to the junction box where the GFCI is and splicing the wire out from the new outlet to the original wire that was going downstream.

So basically splicing it in between the source outlet and the down stream ones. Is that correct?


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SixPapaCharlie said:
Question.

I am diving into this tonight.

Since the GFCI ("source") outlet already is wired to other outlets downstream, I am under the assumption that I will be "inserting" this new outlet in the sequence.
Meaning run new romex from the load out of the GFCI to the new outlet and then out from the new outlet back up to the box where the GFCI is and splicing the wire out from the new outlet to the original wire that was going downstream.

So basically splicing it in between the source outlet and the down stream ones. Is that correct?


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I don’t understand the words, but the picture would have the new outlet GFCI protected along with the others.
 
Yep you got it. Only thing weird about the picture is to remember that any splices have to be inside a box that's accessible. Or in other words, you can't bury the splice in the wall.
 
Albany Tom said:
Yep you got it. Only thing weird about the picture is to remember that any splices have to be inside a box that's accessible. Or in other words, you can't bury the splice in the wall.
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Ok, I sort of assumed that. I am going to see if I can remove the existing junction box and replace it with a deeper one, it is already really cramped.
 
They also don't have to be in series. As long as all 3 outlets are connected to the load side of the GFI outlet, they can be in series, parallel, or a combination. For splicing, wirenuts are common and Wagos are fine, too.
 
Albany Tom said:
They also don't have to be in series. As long as all 3 outlets are connected to the load side of the GFI outlet, they can be in series, parallel, or a combination. For splicing, wirenuts are common and Wagos are fine, too.
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My brain can't figure that out. I see diagrams of that but I can't physically see how I would do that.
 
Your diagram doesn't show a ground wire, though it does show grounded receptacles. Does the existing wiring not include a ground wire?

No ground wire is acceptable per code when you’re adding an outlet to an older home without grounds, but if there are ground wires you should be grounding the new receptacle.
 
Half Fast said:
Your diagram doesn't show a ground wire, though it does show grounded receptacles. Does the existing wiring not include a ground wire?

No ground wire is acceptable per code when you’re adding an outlet to an older home without grounds, but if there are ground wires you should be grounding the new receptacle.
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It has a ground wire.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
My brain can't figure that out. I see diagrams of that but I can't physically see how I would do that.
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In this setup you wouldn't. You may if walls were completely opened up or it was new construction.
 
Glad you got it working, happy you didn't get hurt, and excellent choice in not telling anyone WHY you wanted the outlet first.
 
Albany Tom said:
Glad you got it working, happy you didn't get hurt, and excellent choice in not telling anyone WHY you wanted the outlet first.
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I switched one of the bathrooms to this during the great toilet paper shortage of 2020.
It is awkward at first and everyone that used it goes "Um this is weird." But it quickly becomes to where its way weirder not having this option.
Now nobody in the family wants to not have one. Its an odd topic but there are a lot of times when being able to give your undercarriage a bit of a "How's your father?" is a good thing.
After being out in the heat, doing the yard, after "Special hugs" LOL!!


 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I switched one of the bathrooms to this during the great toilet paper shortage of 2020.
It is awkward at first and everyone that used it goes "Um this is weird." But it quickly becomes to where its way weirder not having this option.
Now nobody in the family wants to not have one.
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Same with the Squatty Potty?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I switched one of the bathrooms to this during the great toilet paper shortage of 2020.
It is awkward at first and everyone that used it goes "Um this is weird." But it quickly becomes to where its way weirder not having this option.
Now nobody in the family wants to not have one. Its an odd topic but there are a lot of times when being able to give your undercarriage a bit of a "How's your father?" is a good thing.
After being out in the heat, doing the yard, after "Special hugs" LOL!!


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bro that’s the funniest video you ever made!
 
asicer said:
Same with the Squatty Potty?
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HAHAHAH!!!
This is not "MY" bathroom.
My bathroom has a bidet that shoots fire and nails because I am a man.
What she does in there with her weird contraptions is her business. My only requirement was "This is the master and I need one that lifts the seat when it detects my presence at 3:00 in the morning. "
Win Win
 
Albany Tom said:
They also don't have to be in series. As long as all 3 outlets are connected to the load side of the GFI outlet, they can be in series, parallel, or a combination. For splicing, wirenuts are common and Wagos are fine, too.
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Also I think code requires that splices be accessible, in a electrical box. You can’t just splice them and stuff them into wall cavity.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Also I think code requires that splices be accessible, in an electrical box. You can’t just splice them and stuff them into wall cavity.
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Too late…it’s done. Can’t open the drywall again. (Mostly because the tools to open the drywall got drywalled in.) ;)
 
All splices are in boxes and everything is grounded. Those drawings weren't actual photos. ;)
 
Easiest to put in a GFCI breaker at the panel.
 
billsgs126 said:
Depending on the size of the house and total number of circuits, having a GFI outlet may be far more flexible. If a kitchen has one outlet circuit, having non-GFI outlets "in front" of a GFI on the same circuit makes sure that compressors etc do not trip everything off. Same with multiple lights or outlets on a circuit shared by a bathroom.
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This is bad advice. A 'fridge should never trip a GFCI. Read up on how GFCI works, hint: to doesn't care about voltage.

The 2023 NEC requires ALL outlets in the kitchen to be GFCI. Going back 20 years it was only for 'countertop'.

I have to laugh at people who want to save $20 vs not burning their house down.
 
pfarber said:
This is bad advice. A 'fridge should never trip a GFCI. Read up on how GFCI works, hint: to doesn't care about voltage.

The 2023 NEC requires ALL outlets in the kitchen to be GFCI. Going back 20 years it was only for 'countertop'.

I have to laugh at people who want to save $20 vs not burning their house down.
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GFCI's work on current (Amps), not Volts. Older compressors (refrigerators and window a/c units) pull a lot of amps right when they start. They will trip off an inexpensive GFCI. (Yeah, they are supposed to react to the differential, but they react really quickly.)

If you are building a new house, or renovating one, the NEC is relevant. Where I find issues is where some realtor or home inspector thinks that a house built in 1922 or 1946 should have this or that because they don't understand WHY a GFCI is a good thing to have. (I've seen houses where three or four GFCIs were hooked up in series. And I think rock-paper-scissors was played to decide what to connect where.)

So, a third person just installs whatever someone else said to and creates a problem that did not exist beforehand. There is no safety hazard in having the outlet behind the refrigerator not attached to a GFCI. There is no additional hazard from having the wall outlet in a bedroom (which might be used for a personal a/c unit) not connected to a GFCI.
 
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