Mustang Mach-E

[decalogue]

That's what they used to say about hybrids. A buddy bought one in the mid 2000's, fearmongerers were quick to predict him a fast and expensive battery death. That car was finally sold last year.
All it failed on the HV electrical side was a battery temperature sensor and a battery cell, after about 15 years. Both fixed for less than 1AMU.

EVs might not work for everyone. But they do work (or could work) for most people.
And I'd rather see the corn ethanol subsidies ended and that 25% of all corn production land that they use being repurposed for solar panels. That could generate enough electricity to supply the entire US, even accounting for a massive transition to EVs.

A used Prius is pretty cheap, as are the electrics, and they just don’t feel like a car where in 40yrs your grand kids are going to pull off a sheet and wow everyone with grandpas all original mustang mach E

I’m not sure a mid 2000s is remotely old, that’s pretty new car. For a classic you got to be talking late 1960s at the latest

 

[Groundpounder]

I just drove a Kia Telluride for a week. Talk about an awful car. Being made disposable these days has nothing to do with the power train, it has to do with being made to fit a price point

 

[decalogue]

I just drove a Kia Telluride for a week. Talk about an awful car. Being made disposable these days has nothing to do with the power train, it has to do with being made to fit a price point

What were you expecting test driving a Kia lol

Not exactly a car guy car

And not cheap! 50k??!

Just because it’s new and has a warranty, I could see it being a $15k car, amazing people pay 50k for that clunker. You don’t see many really old Korean cars on the road


I’d get a ford police interceptor utility with the admin package, twin turbo. Much much better

 

[Groundpounder]

What were you expecting test driving a Kia lol

Not exactly a car guy car

And not cheap! 50k??!

Just because it’s new and has a warranty, I could see it being a $15k car, amazing people pay 50k for that clunker. You don’t see many really old Korean cars on the road


I’d get a ford police interceptor utility with the admin package, twin turbo. Much much better

My point is there are plenty of ICE vehicles that are "disposable", its not exclusive to EV's.

How are you going to buy a police car?

 

[decalogue]

My point is there are plenty of ICE vehicles that are "disposable", its not exclusive to EV's.

How are you going to buy a police car?

With USD?

Not as common, but also not hard to find with a little looking.

For a easier option the explorer ST with AWD is pretty close the the same as the interceptor minus some extra bracing, bigger alternator, and a few other things the interceptor has, though the ST has more creature comforts and widgets (and their extra complexity and weight) for a easier option

 

[Groundpounder]

I didn't think Ford sold police cars directly to the public. Interesting.

 

[DaleB]

I didn't think Ford sold police cars directly to the public. Interesting.

Less than a minute of searching turned up this:

Inventory | Buy and Finance Online

Browse through the selection of vehicles at J.C. Lewis Ford Hinesville, and apply for financing online. We have the vehicle right for ever budget.

www.jclewishinesville.com

 

[Groundpounder]

Less than a minute of searching turned up this:

Inventory | Buy and Finance Online

Browse through the selection of vehicles at J.C. Lewis Ford Hinesville, and apply for financing online. We have the vehicle right for ever budget.

www.jclewishinesville.com

Huh, learn something new every day

 

[SoonerAviator]

When you compare the numbers, federal support for oil production and corn ethanol is substantially larger than the combined funding for EV tax credits and EV infrastructure.

Can you elaborate on federal support for oil production? I always see that cited but no one ever has details on what specifically is being subsidized. Ethanol is understand.

Sent from my SM-S938U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Groundpounder]

Can you elaborate on federal support for oil production? I always see that cited but no one ever has details on what specifically is being subsidized. Ethanol is understand.

Sent from my SM-S938U1 using Tapatalk

Per ChatGPT:

HOW THE U.S. OIL INDUSTRY RECEIVES GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES

Most support does not come as direct cash payments. It primarily comes through tax policy and financial structure.

Intangible Drilling Costs (IDC) Deduction
Oil companies can immediately deduct many upfront drilling expenses (labor, site prep, drilling fluids, surveying) instead of depreciating them over years.
Effect: Lowers taxes early and improves cash flow.

Percentage Depletion Allowance
Producers can deduct a fixed percentage of gross income from a well, even after recovering their initial investment.
Primarily benefits smaller independent producers.

Domestic Manufacturing Deduction (Section 199 – largely phased out in 2017)
Oil and gas companies previously qualified for a manufacturing tax deduction.

Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs)
Many pipeline companies operate as MLPs.
MLPs do not pay corporate income tax. Profits pass through to investors and are taxed at the individual level.
Effect: Reduces total tax burden compared to traditional corporations.

Federal Leasing Terms
Companies drill on federal land and offshore areas at government-set royalty rates.
Critics argue some rates were historically below market value.
Companies still pay lease bids, royalties, rents, severance taxes, and income taxes.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve and Infrastructure Policy
Not direct payments, but federal policies that reduce systemic risk and support domestic energy production.

Estimated Annual Value (varies by definition):

• Narrow definition (oil-specific tax provisions): ~$4–6 billion per year
• Broader definition (including leasing advantages): ~$10–20+ billion per year
• Very broad economic models (including environmental externalities): Much higher, but not direct government spending

Important Context:

• Oil companies pay corporate income tax, state taxes, royalties, payroll taxes, and severance taxes.
• Many provisions were created to encourage domestic production and energy security.
• Whether these are called “subsidies” or “tax policy” depends largely on perspective.

 

[decalogue]

Less than a minute of searching turned up this:

Inventory | Buy and Finance Online

Browse through the selection of vehicles at J.C. Lewis Ford Hinesville, and apply for financing online. We have the vehicle right for ever budget.

www.jclewishinesville.com

I’d want the admin package which has the normal back doors. I’d also want to 3.0 twin turbo, 3.3 is ok too, but if you’re going to do it..

Just don’t get the hybrid

 

[asicer]

Most likely sodium-ion batteries, which would ensure independence from China's lithium supply. We can retrain all the coal industry workers to become the next generation of battery makers. They'll live longer, too.

We have this wonderful thing called the national grid. It will have to grow in capacity, like it has been doing over the past century as demand increased.

I suspect both would need to accelerate their current rate of progress to support your proposal.

 

[asicer]

and they just don’t feel like a car where in 40yrs your grand kids are going to pull off a sheet and wow everyone with grandpas all original mustang mach E

I'm having a hard time thinking of any car from 1986 that would wow today's grandkids.

 

[DaleB]

Huh, learn something new every day

You and me both.

 

[decalogue]

I'm having a hard time thinking of any car from 1986 that would wow today's grandkids.

 

[asicer]

All of which would get smoked by a Honda Civic.

 

[MackMooney]

yeah, owned the grandnational, my jeep grand cherokee would eat it. the blazer ev ss i'm waiting on wouldn't even bother to notice it

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Ahh, well I don’t like EVs because of their lack of handling and braking performance and lack of practically for where I live.

That has nothing to do with the powertrain... Frankly, my current EV has better handling than anything I've driven before.

They also have a much more disposable feel in their inception

Again, this is a car-by-car thing that has nothing to do with the powertrain.

 

[decalogue]

That has nothing to do with the powertrain... Frankly, my current EV has better handling than anything I've driven before.


Again, this is a car-by-car thing that has nothing to do with the powertrain.

Guess it depends on what you’re comparing it to and the types of vehicles you drive.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Guess it depends on what you’re comparing it to and the types of vehicles you drive.

No, it doesn't. A nice EV will have better handling and be more solidly built than a ****box gas car and vice versa. It has nothing to do with the powertrain.

Are there probably a higher proportion of ****box EVs out there? Well yeah, because the traditional OEMs were too busy making ****box EVs on purpose to convince CARB that nobody wanted EVs and thus they shouldn't be required. But there is nothing about EVs that makes them inherently worse than ICEVs. In fact, those who use the Tesla-style "skateboard" design with the battery being under the passenger compartment gain a big advantage by having such a low CG. That's part of what's fun about my Model 3, I can whip it around corners at ridiculous speeds with no body roll at all. It's a hoot, you should try it.

 

[decalogue]

No, it doesn't. A nice EV will have better handling and be more solidly built than a ****box gas car and vice versa. It has nothing to do with the powertrain.

Are there probably a higher proportion of ****box EVs out there? Well yeah, because the traditional OEMs were too busy making ****box EVs on purpose to convince CARB that nobody wanted EVs and thus they shouldn't be required. But there is nothing about EVs that makes them inherently worse than ICEVs. In fact, those who use the Tesla-style "skateboard" design with the battery being under the passenger compartment gain a big advantage by having such a low CG. That's part of what's fun about my Model 3, I can whip it around corners at ridiculous speeds with no body roll at all. It's a hoot, you should try it.

So why did the electric mustang crossover have considerably slower lap times vs the police ford explorer?


I have a friend that has a model S, it doesn’t have much body roll I agree, but it doesn’t take much to get some impressive understeer

 

[Larry in TN]

So why did the electric mustang crossover have considerably slower lap times vs the police ford explorer?

I don't know much about either, but could it be because the Mach-E had a stock suspension while the police car had an upgraded police suspension? What happens when you upgrade the Mach-E's suspension?

For an EV with superior handling I would look at the Porsche Taycan. Again, I don't know many specifics about it but I'd imagine that Porsche has optimized that car's suspension.

 

[bentmettle]

So why did the electric mustang crossover have considerably slower lap times vs the police ford explorer?

Are you talking about the Michigan State Police vehicle testing that included a Mach E and an Interceptor Explorer with 3L Ecoboost?

https://www.government-fleet.com/10250406/michigan-state-police-2025-vehicle-testing-results

It doesn't look like the Mach E got completely dusted. Also, Ford puts a lot of work into the Interceptor program, so I'm not surprised the Explorer does well.

I didn't read this in depth, but I'm wondering if the Mach E had pursuit rated tires.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So why did the electric mustang crossover have considerably slower lap times vs the police ford explorer?

Because it was designed as a fun grocery getter and not a race car?

I have a friend that has a model S, it doesn’t have much body roll I agree, but it doesn’t take much to get some impressive understeer

I'm not aware of all of the track characteristics of the Model S, but I think they did a lot more work in that area on the Performance Model 3. There's some interesting stuff about Track Mode here, and the updated version for the newer Plaid models with Track Mode here.

 

[asicer]

So why did the electric mustang crossover have considerably slower lap times vs the police ford explorer?

Which lap times would those be? The Mach-E beat the Explorer ST on the MotorTrend figure8.

 

[decalogue]

Which lap times would those be? The Mach-E beat the Explorer ST on the MotorTrend figure8.
View attachment 149989

I’m not talking a paid for advertising piece, reference the link I posted

 

[Velocity173]

Comparing an EV to ICE is always gonna be an apples to oranges. It’s subjective on what you prefer. However, if looking from a simple standpoint of performance (0-60, 1/4 mile, handling, braking) you’re not going to find a comparable ICE. Yeah, maybe a Macan or GV-70 but that ain’t in this class.

 

[DaleB]

Reading the MSP testing article linked above, the Mach-E GT AWD took the top spot in 0-60, 0-80, 0-100, and braking distance - all by more than just a little margin - and was second fastest on the road course. The Explorer has a higher top speed and turned a faster lap time.

Its interesting that Ford doesn't say much... if anything... about its police equipped Mach-E. Have to wonder if they're still working on tweaks. The top speed is a governor limit, the same as the stock GT or Rally.

 

[asicer]

Reading the MSP testing article linked above, the Mach-E GT AWD took the top spot in 0-60, 0-80, 0-100, and braking distance - all by more than just a little margin - and was second fastest on the road course. The Explorer has a higher top speed and turned a faster lap time.

Yeah, was going to say the exact same. Only thing to add is that the MSP tested at Grattan Raceway, a longer course than the Motortrend Figure8, which would lend credence to the 148mph vs 124mph top speed theory.

 

[Groundpounder]

I can't remember the last time I worried about what my lap times were when I was driving to work.

 

[decalogue]

I can't remember the last time I worried about what my lap times were when I was driving to work.

Drive faster

 

[MackMooney]

Drive faster

Bah move to houston, the defining quality of a great car, how fast it moves while idling.

I had my Camaro 6 to 7 months before i ever got it above 55 mph

 

[Groundpounder]

Drive faster

Sure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Its interesting that Ford doesn't say much... if anything... about its police equipped Mach-E. Have to wonder if they're still working on tweaks. The top speed is a governor limit, the same as the stock GT or Rally.

FWIW, prior to the Plaid Model S, the reason for their governed top speed was that if they let the car go any faster, the motor was spinning so fast that the centrifugal forces on it started pulling the windings apart!

The Plaid Model S had its top speed bumped up to 200mph because they build new motors that have the windings encased in what's essentially a carbon fiber bag just to keep the motor from pulling itself apart. Crazy!

 

[Eric S]

I don't know much about either, but could it be because the Mach-E had a stock suspension while the police car had an upgraded police suspension? What happens when you upgrade the Mach-E's suspension?

For an EV with superior handling I would look at the Porsche Taycan. Again, I don't know many specifics about it but I'd imagine that Porsche has optimized that car's suspension.

I actually own a Taycan, the thing handles amazingly, especially considering its 5500lbs. in the Porsche event I attended the Taycan quite easily kept up with and out performed in some 911s, and my is the base model. Now the Turbo S version (Don't ask why they called it a Turbo) that thing is a monster 0-60 in 2.1s (it will snap your neck if you are not prepared) and handles just as well as any sports car. But then again the Turbo S starts at 220K new so slightly different league here.

 

[Larry in TN]

I actually own a Taycan, the thing handles amazingly

I've only seen videos of it. It looks amazing. Great road tripper, too, with it's charging curve.

Beyond that, most of what I know about Porsche, I learned from Risky Business. LOL

 

[Eric S]

I've only seen videos of it. It looks amazing. Great road tripper, too, with it's charging curve.

Beyond that, most of what I know about Porsche, I learned from Risky Business. LOL

Its my 1st Porsche so didn't know much about them. But I was looking for an EV and with the depreciation the Taycans have getting a couple year old one with 7500 miles for less that 50% of its initial cost was just too good to pass up. Yeah its great at road tripping, range is about 220 Miles in the base and 200 in the higher trims, starting from 15% I regularly see 150 to 196Kw charging tapering off to 80 to 100Kw by 80% Then from 80 to 90 it starts slowing down to 50kw. So for me it works out at drive 2 hours plug in for 15 minutes drive 2 more hours etc..

And here she is:

 

[Larry in TN]

It looks great in that color.

So, the things I learned about Porsche from Risky Business.

1. "There is no substitute"
2. There was a time where you could get one for $50,000
3. A Porsche dealer only needs a day, or two, to repair once that was dumped into Lake Michigan

 

[Eric S]

It looks great in that color.

So, the things I learned about Porsche from Risky Business.

1. "There is no substitute"
2. There was a time where you could get one for $50,000
3. A Porsche dealer only needs a day, or two, to repair once that was dumped into Lake Michigan

Lol yeah my neighbor calls it expensive red

Not being a Porche person I can say the following:
1. Agree, by far the best driving car I have owned, puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it.
2. Still can! 2021 to 2024 Base taycans can be easily found between $45 and $65
3. No this I can refute, I can definitely say they take just as long as any other dealer. Though to be fair they are far more efficient at separating you from your money, but they are really nice about it when they do.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Per ChatGPT:

HOW THE U.S. OIL INDUSTRY RECEIVES GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES

Most support does not come as direct cash payments. It primarily comes through tax policy and financial structure.

Intangible Drilling Costs (IDC) Deduction
Oil companies can immediately deduct many upfront drilling expenses (labor, site prep, drilling fluids, surveying) instead of depreciating them over years.
Effect: Lowers taxes early and improves cash flow.

Percentage Depletion Allowance
Producers can deduct a fixed percentage of gross income from a well, even after recovering their initial investment.
Primarily benefits smaller independent producers.

Domestic Manufacturing Deduction (Section 199 – largely phased out in 2017)
Oil and gas companies previously qualified for a manufacturing tax deduction.

Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs)
Many pipeline companies operate as MLPs.
MLPs do not pay corporate income tax. Profits pass through to investors and are taxed at the individual level.
Effect: Reduces total tax burden compared to traditional corporations.

Federal Leasing Terms
Companies drill on federal land and offshore areas at government-set royalty rates.
Critics argue some rates were historically below market value.
Companies still pay lease bids, royalties, rents, severance taxes, and income taxes.

Strategic Petroleum Reserve and Infrastructure Policy
Not direct payments, but federal policies that reduce systemic risk and support domestic energy production.

Estimated Annual Value (varies by definition):

• Narrow definition (oil-specific tax provisions): ~$4–6 billion per year
• Broader definition (including leasing advantages): ~$10–20+ billion per year
• Very broad economic models (including environmental externalities): Much higher, but not direct government spending

Important Context:

• Oil companies pay corporate income tax, state taxes, royalties, payroll taxes, and severance taxes.
• Many provisions were created to encourage domestic production and energy security.
• Whether these are called “subsidies” or “tax policy” depends largely on perspective.

The other part of the context I'd add, is that most of those items aren't particular to the Oil & Gas industry, but to mining of minerals in general. Percentage depletion/domestic manufacturing, Federal leasing terms are unique to multiple mining industries, not just O&G. I do agree that it being a subsidy vs tax policy is semantics.