Multiple Recent ATC Errors...Why?

Kyle N said:
Unless someone has actual data or first hand knowledge, yelling "DEI" is just a cop out for not wanting to do actual RCCA (in my opinion).
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Targeted Disabilities
Targeted disabilities are those disabilities that the Federal government, as a matter of policy, has identified for special emphasis in recruitment and hiring. They include hearing, vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability and dwarfism.

Call me whatever "ism" you like, I couldn't care less.
"Targeting" for hire- individuals with certain disabilities DIRECTLY impacting their ability to maintain flight safety is the definition of insanity.
And don't even waste your keypunches trying to get me to believe that they won't push less qualified persons over the finish line to the exclusion of the "non-targeted" hires.

Yes- it's a sad day when politics has entered aviation, but this is where we are.
 
tobnpr said:
...And don't even waste your keypunches trying to get me to believe that they won't push less qualified persons over the finish line to the exclusion of the "non-targeted" hires.
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I don't have any information on whether people are being hired whose disabilities prevent them from doing the job, so I won't comment on that.

My question is this: Is there, in fact, a surplus of applicants? The reason I'm asking is that that would be necessary in order for qualified applicants to be getting turned away due to DEI.
 
How come DEI doesn’t give us old farts a leg up?
 
Well boys, beating up on ATC seems undeserved. After 40 plus years of working with these guys I happen to feel they do a great job with the challenges some of us give them, certainly including me at times and I would assume if anyone were to look into the past they would agree. I certainly hear an overwhelming amount of errors, deviations and errors from our side of the equation. As we all can perform better, I think we need to keep this in perspective and just continue to work together. Safe skies to all and just continue to improve your skills and attitudes. Keep your eyes, and ears open and don’t just rely on an instruction without looking at what else is happening on the field and in the air.
 
Half Fast said:
CST - Company Specific TLA
TLA - Three Letter Acronym

(Nested acronyms are a preferred practice, after all.)
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When it comes to tossing TLAs, you're the king of the forum.

:bowdown:

:biggrin:
 
Half Fast said:
Got it all except crt. Cartridge?
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Close. Just "cart". The hyd servicing cart was about the size of a Radio Flyer wagon with a tank full of hydro and a pump. The older N2 (nite, or nitrogen) carts were 8 bottle carts about the size of a small car and meant to be towed around by a truck, or pushed around by young airman. The newer nite carts are self-generating and about the size of an ATV and while still heavy, are much easier to push.
 
aterry1067 said:
Close. Just "cart". The hyd servicing cart was about the size of a Radio Flyer wagon with a tank full of hydro and a pump. The older N2 (nite, or nitrogen) carts were 8 bottle carts about the size of a small car and meant to be towed around by a truck, or pushed around by young airman. The newer nite carts are self-generating and about the size of an ATV and while still heavy, are much easier to push.
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I'm going to peg myself as an old guy by revealing that the first thing that came to mind for me was "cathode ray tube." :biggrin:
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm going to peg myself as an old guy by revealing that the first thing that came to mind for me was "cathode ray tube." :biggrin:
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Ha. I still have one of them CRT TVs; works like a champ.
 
At Mooney, we had a list of common TLA's, it was over 150 long.
 
It’s gotten to where some of them sound like teenagers with chewing gum in the side of their mouths. Never thought I’d be flying a heavy jet in and out of the country and having trouble understanding our own damn controllers. My last trip I listened to a sharp, senior sounding AA crew who had to ask ATC 4 times to repeat a basic clearance. Terrible! Always seems to be the red eye flights when we have the worst ATC. Guessing it’s a jr shift thing.
 
As an answer to the OP, in my opinion its relaxed standards at the school house. When I went through, we started with 25 students and I graduated with 7. Those that didn’t pass were washed back or out. When I got to my first assignment there were 6 trainees. All of us were rated within 8 months. Took me 6 months.

Now the school seems to have a “no child left behind” mentality and are producing less than desirable trainees and just ship them to facilities to wash out. I can remember just a few years ago, we had a 90% wash out rate. Of course they blamed it on our training program instead of the substandard trainees we were getting. Now it takes on average 1.5-2 years to get someone fully trained. I have 2 more years to deal with it, then I’m done.
 
tobnpr said:

Targeted Disabilities
Targeted disabilities are those disabilities that the Federal government, as a matter of policy, has identified for special emphasis in recruitment and hiring. They include hearing, vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability and dwarfism.

Call me whatever "ism" you like, I couldn't care less.
"Targeting" for hire- individuals with certain disabilities DIRECTLY impacting their ability to maintain flight safety is the definition of insanity.
And don't even waste your keypunches trying to get me to believe that they won't push less qualified persons over the finish line to the exclusion of the "non-targeted" hires.

Yes- it's a sad day when politics has entered aviation, but this is where we are.
Click to expand...
Don’t ATC have to have medicals as well? They do here in Canada. This seems like out of context stuff here.
 
If there’s a staffing shortfall, it seems that the FAA could re-prioritize controller assignments. Could some deltas, particularly those under charlies and bravos, close their towers temporarily and move the personnel to an understaffed B or C?
 
Instead of 1500 hours of pic we should require 1500 hours of atc for atp
 
SebIp said:
Don’t ATC have to have medicals as well? They do here in Canada. This seems like out of context stuff here.
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They do. Pretty much equivalent to a Class II. Years ago they actually give you the Certificate. I got mine for free.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As an answer to the OP, in my opinion its relaxed standards at the school house. ….
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For some reason I thought you were on the post-retirement AF side as a GS; are you on the FAA side instead?
 
Still working as a GS but work closely with the FAA. We have the same standards and take the same tests. The old heads are complaining about the new hires just as I described
 
Half Fast said:
If there’s a staffing shortfall, it seems that the FAA could re-prioritize controller assignments. Could some deltas, particularly those under charlies and bravos, close their towers temporarily and move the personnel to an understaffed B or C?
Click to expand...
A lot of tower controllers are "wash-downs" from more difficult facilities so that would probably not work.
 
Half Fast said:
If there’s a staffing shortfall, it seems that the FAA could re-prioritize controller assignments. Could some deltas, particularly those under charlies and bravos, close their towers temporarily and move the personnel to an understaffed B or C?
Click to expand...
It’s been done before. 1981.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Still working as a GS but work closely with the FAA. We have the same standards and take the same tests. The old heads are complaining about the new hires just as I described
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Thanks and I didn’t doubt your statement, just the way I read your post threw me for a loop.

Not that it’s apples and oranges, but I somehow think the CCT candidates aren’t suffering the same fate.
 
cailloux said:
I talked to a controller ~5 years ago about this, and his view (as he was retiring) was that ATC never recovered from the PATCO firings in 1981. His view was that the brain drain was substantial, and rebuilding the expertise took more controllers than could be hired and staffed. The quality trend line has been a negative slope, augmented by technology to help flatten or inflect the trend.
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It probably varies by people's personal experience, but in my experience, the controllers who hired in the first 5 years after the strike were, as a group, the best i ever saw. The training program was intense, and there was no union to protect trainees from whatever the supervisor decided. I saw one controller training on his last 2 positions (out of 12) get a checkride on the 9:30 push. He didn't do well and smarted off to the supervisor blaming other people. I never saw him again after lunch. The body count was incredible, but acceptable to the organization to maintain the standards of ATC.

Later in the 80s NATCA (the union) was certified, and soon after the training program was revamped with the requirements diluted from before. If all the steps weren't followed to a T, that's the reason Johnny failed. Don't get me wrong, if you have a training program, you should follow it. What became a problem was being able to separate an omission during training from a causation for training failure. Over time, with weaker (but certified) trainers providing training to developmental that would have been washed out in the lab (my class lost 7 out of 16 in just one stage of labs) the gradual, but evident, decline occurred.

As for the brain drain in 1981, the people who upheld their sworn oath to not strike against the federal government and stayed on position were almost 100% united in their efforts to train a new workforce. Were there some exceptional people who went on strike? Yes, but the people who stayed on position were an awesome group of men and women, who frequently told of controllers that struck that were less than stellar people.

Sorry for the rant.
 
PastZTL said:
It probably varies by people's personal experience, but in my experience, the controllers who hired in the first 5 years after the strike were, as a group, the best i ever saw. The training program was intense, and there was no union to protect trainees from whatever the supervisor decided. I saw one controller training on his last 2 positions (out of 12) get a checkride on the 9:30 push. He didn't do well and smarted off to the supervisor blaming other people. I never saw him again after lunch. The body count was incredible, but acceptable to the organization to maintain the standards of ATC.

Later in the 80s NATCA (the union) was certified, and soon after the training program was revamped with the requirements diluted from before. If all the steps weren't followed to a T, that's the reason Johnny failed. Don't get me wrong, if you have a training program, you should follow it. What became a problem was being able to separate an omission during training from a causation for training failure. Over time, with weaker (but certified) trainers providing training to developmental that would have been washed out in the lab (my class lost 7 out of 16 in just one stage of labs) the gradual, but evident, decline occurred.

As for the brain drain in 1981, the people who upheld their sworn oath to not strike against the federal government and stayed on position were almost 100% united in their efforts to train a new workforce. Were there some exceptional people who went on strike? Yes, but the people who stayed on position were an awesome group of men and women, who frequently told of controllers that struck that were less than stellar people.

Sorry for the rant.
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No need to apologize for that rant. I will rant. I was hired by the FAA in 1978. I went through the strike. I wasn’t fired but I did quit about 3 weeks later. It was national news. I was hired by the Navy as a DOD Controller shortly there after. I was rehired by the FAA 6 years later. I was on a bigger sheet list then than fired Controllers but a Chief(now called Air Traffic Managers) got me back in.

Much talk here about the CTI, college training initiative program. One thing that happened is folk, including legislators, were shocked by the fact that non college people were getting pretty damn good salaries. So they decided that buy gum by golly ya should have some college first. Next thing that happened was the ‘train to succeed’ program. Congress was pizzed that Controller applicants were still failing at about a 50% rate at the FAA Academy.

The FAA Academy then was not about ‘teaching’, it was about evaluating. Evaluating if someone had some inherit skills. Being able to evaluate things in motion and where traffic will be a minute or two later. And to have their attention diverted and be able to maintain a mental picture of ‘traffic.’

The first round of CTI controllers was a disaster. Most of them didn’t have the inherent skills to separate two flys with a screen door much less the the cheeks of their azz with a crowbar. I’ve heard that has changed and ‘pass fail’ is a part of the process now.

I worked as an instructor at the FAA Academy in 2007. I quit after about 4 months. Part of the reason I did was what I described above. It was not pass/fail then and the number of of candidates sent out to the field into the ‘train to succeed environment’ was depressing to me. I decided I refused to participate regardless of the financial ‘bonanza’, It paid well.
 
Is there any actual data on ATC error rates over time? Preferably normalized to number of operations to account for growing air traffic (although in reality this is likely a super-linear effect due to the fact that airport infrastructure hasn’t also scaled up).

Not saying there is or isn’t any issues, just that anecdata is ripe for selection bias, not to mention that now we have a bunch more active monitoring of ATC by enthusiasts who hear something interesting and throw it on YouTube.

A similar parallel could be the perceived vs actual crime rates.

www.pewresearch.org

Voters’ perceptions of crime continue to conflict with reality

Despite double-digit decreases in U.S. violent and property crime rates since 2008, most voters say crime has gotten worse during that span.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org
 
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Seems to be the same reason there are so many maintenance problems - new graduates being put on the front lines too soon with not enough experience and little oversight. At least that's my impression.
 
Larry in TN said:
Probably more indicative of news coverage than actual crime rates.
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That’s my point. Crime rate is an example of an area where the perceived changes in rate is actually the opposite of the measured changes in rate.

I’m curious whether that is also true for the operation count normalized ATC error rate.
 
AKiss20 said:
Is there any actual data on ATC error rates over time? Preferably normalized to number of operations to account for growing air traffic (although in reality this is likely a super-linear effect due to the fact that airport infrastructure hasn’t also scaled up).

Not saying there is or isn’t any issues, just that anecdata is ripe for selection bias, not to mention that now we have a bunch more active monitoring of ATC by enthusiasts who hear something interesting and throw it on YouTube.

A similar parallel could be the perceived vs actual crime rates.

www.pewresearch.org

Voters’ perceptions of crime continue to conflict with reality

Despite double-digit decreases in U.S. violent and property crime rates since 2008, most voters say crime has gotten worse during that span.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org
Click to expand...
The survey you linked was based upon crime rates between 2008 and 2015 and is totally irrelevant to today's smash and grab no bail world. That the reduction in crime paralled the Great Recession isn't surprising.

That being said, I see similar claims in the media regarding the current crime rates. We are being told not to believe our lying eyes and ears. There are also many repeated assertions by media and government that the economy is roaring along, yet repeated public polls show the populace isn't buying it.

Every month we're told inflation is in check, prices have stabilized, and the net cumulative effect of inflation since early 2021 is around 21%. Meanwhile, the everyday price of a Diet Coke twelve pack is $9.99, up from $4.99 in early 2020.

While I'm extremely skeptical about all of the breathless claims in the media, that doesn't mean I'm a tinfoil hat extremist that denies the moon landings. In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it.

The FAA should be affording the same amount of scrutiny (or more) to ATC failures as they are to Boeing's manufacturing issues. While the investigation into the failure to document the removal of the Alaska Airlines MAX door plug and the resulting near tragedy are warranted, ATC incidents have become more and more prevalent without any corresponding action to determine the causes and correct them.

However, since the FAA runs the ATC system, and the FAA is a child of the appointed bureaucracy, the accuracy of performance metrics released to the public is suspect. There is no unbiased source of the relevant information, so the public is left to wonder.

I do believe the current government wide drastic lowering of common sense standards and requirements for candidate hiring is seriously compromising the effectiveness of the bloated federal workforce. This is particularly alarming in the context of the ATC system, because hiring substandard employees will eventually reveal the folly of this practice via the deaths of hundreds of airline passengers.

The February 2023 near miss between a SWA 737 and a FedEx 767 at AUS brought the planes within 100 feet of each other. An almost immeasurable amount of time and distance kept the unthinkable from occurring. The controller cleared the FedEx aircraft to land after he had cleared the SWA jet to depart on the same runway.

There wasn't heavy traffic at the time. Only one controller and a supervisor were in the tower overseeing operations. The controller was placed on desk duty for a time, underwent retraining, and was returned to the tower.

There had been undercurrents and rumors about the controller's performance since he became certified. I saw some of these comments posted online, ostensibly made by persons that observed his work firsthand. A search shows they have apparently been taken down by the authors or otherwise scrubbed. Were these accusations credible? I don't know.


 
Thats v
3393RP said:
The survey you linked was based upon crime rates between 2008 and 2015 and is totally irrelevant to today's smash and grab no bail world. That the reduction in crime paralled the Great Recession isn't surprising.

That being said, I see similar claims in the media regarding the current crime rates. We are being told not to believe our lying eyes and ears. There are also many repeated assertions by media and government that the economy is roaring along, yet repeated public polls show the populace isn't buying it.

Every month we're told inflation is in check, prices have stabilized, and the net cumulative effect of inflation since early 2021 is around 21%. Meanwhile, the everyday price of a Diet Coke twelve pack is $9.99, up from $4.99 in early 2020.

While I'm extremely skeptical about all of the breathless claims in the media, that doesn't mean I'm a tinfoil hat extremist that denies the moon landings. In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it.

The FAA should be affording the same amount of scrutiny (or more) to ATC failures as they are to Boeing's manufacturing issues. While the investigation into the failure to document the removal of the Alaska Airlines MAX door plug and the resulting near tragedy are warranted, ATC incidents have become more and more prevalent without any corresponding action to determine the causes and correct them.

However, since the FAA runs the ATC system, and the FAA is a child of the appointed bureaucracy, the accuracy of performance metrics released to the public is suspect. There is no unbiased source of the relevant information, so the public is left to wonder.

I do believe the current government wide drastic lowering of common sense standards and requirements for candidate hiring is seriously compromising the effectiveness of the bloated federal workforce. This is particularly alarming in the context of the ATC system, because hiring substandard employees will eventually reveal the folly of this practice via the deaths of hundreds of airline passengers.

The February 2023 near miss between a SWA 737 and a FedEx 767 at AUS brought the planes within 100 feet of each other. An almost immeasurable amount of time and distance kept the unthinkable from occurring. The controller cleared the FedEx aircraft to land after he had cleared the SWA jet to depart on the same runway.

There wasn't heavy traffic at the time. Only one controller and a supervisor were in the tower overseeing operations. The controller was placed on desk duty for a time, underwent retraining, and was returned to the tower.

There had been undercurrents and rumors about the controller's performance since he became certified. I saw some of these comments posted online, ostensibly made by persons that observed his work firsthand. A search shows they have apparently been taken down by the authors or otherwise scrubbed. Were these accusations credible? I don't know.


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That's a very long post to say "no I don't have any data one way or the other"

There is a lot of "I believe" statements in your post but then you also say that there is no reliable data from any source. So what are you basing your belief on if you think there is no reliable data to be had?
 
I didn't say there was no data regarding issues. You missed the statement "In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it." Bias exists everywhere. Evaluating sources instead of nodding one's head and agreeing is required. In this case, using a survey conducted almost a decade ago to make your point was rather useless.

In the larger picture, this is an internet forum, and that means opinions are a given. There's always the TLDR discard option if you don't want to read more than two sentences.
 
3393RP said:
You missed the statement "In most cases there is accurate information to be had, one just has to look for it."
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So you are basing your opinion on data? What data?

You are hung up on inconsequential details about an example which was merely supposed to be demonstrative. Whether or not perceptions right now mirror reality doesn't invalidate that at the time of that study they did not. The point I was making is that there are examples where the perceptions of the trend in the rate of something occurring are actually opposite of the true trend. I wasn't particularly arguing that it was a universal truth or the details of the example.

By the way, since you insist on arguing the details, that mis-match in perceptions continues to exist. While we had a bump in the crime rate in 2020 and 2021, that bump has rapidly decayed, yet the vast majority of people in 2023 believed crime rates were still increasing, and within the margin of error, the same amount as in 2020 when crime rates actually were increasing.

www.nbcnews.com

Most people think the U.S. crime rate is rising. They're wrong.

Almost 80 percent of Americans, and 92 percent of Republicans, think crime has gone up. It actually fell in 2023. An expert blames a familiar culprit for the mistaken impression.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
jasher.substack.com

Crime in 2023: Murder Plummeted, Violent and Property Crime Likely Fell Nationally

These trends stand in sharp contrast with polling showing 3 in 4 Americans think crime rose this year.
jasher.substack.com jasher.substack.com
news.gallup.com

More Americans See U.S. Crime Problem as Serious

A new high of 63% of U.S. adults say the crime problem in the U.S. is extremely or very serious.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com

Can we please move on from this now? Is there any actual, reliable data on ATC error rates?
 
Listen up… if the crew is in tune to the big picture, that does help. Paying attention and sterile cockpit. It can, and does, avoid tragedy.
 
AKiss20 said:
So you are basing your opinion on data? What data?

You are hung up on inconsequential details about an example which was merely supposed to be demonstrative. Whether or not perceptions right now mirror reality doesn't invalidate that at the time of that study they did not. The point I was making is that there are examples where the perceptions of the trend in the rate of something occurring are actually opposite of the true trend. I wasn't particularly arguing that it was a universal truth or the details of the example.

By the way, since you insist on arguing the details, that mis-match in perceptions continues to exist. While we had a bump in the crime rate in 2020 and 2021, that bump has rapidly decayed, yet the vast majority of people in 2023 believed crime rates were still increasing, and within the margin of error, the same amount as in 2020 when crime rates actually were increasing.

www.nbcnews.com

Most people think the U.S. crime rate is rising. They're wrong.

Almost 80 percent of Americans, and 92 percent of Republicans, think crime has gone up. It actually fell in 2023. An expert blames a familiar culprit for the mistaken impression.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
jasher.substack.com

Crime in 2023: Murder Plummeted, Violent and Property Crime Likely Fell Nationally

These trends stand in sharp contrast with polling showing 3 in 4 Americans think crime rose this year.
jasher.substack.com jasher.substack.com
news.gallup.com

More Americans See U.S. Crime Problem as Serious

A new high of 63% of U.S. adults say the crime problem in the U.S. is extremely or very serious.
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com

Can we please move on from this now? Is there any actual, reliable data on ATC error rates?
Click to expand...

www.usatoday.com

Low staffing, more close calls: FAA responds to increased scrutiny on aviation safety

The Federal Aviation Administration insists flying is still extremely safe and improvements are being made even as near miss numbers rise.
www.usatoday.com

unherd.com

Is DEI risking air traffic control safety?

Several stories and tweets went viral this week calling into question the competency of airline pilots over DEI concerns. Critics such as Elon Musk have pointed to diversity hiring initiatives for airline pilots, assuming that standards are lowered for underrepresented groups, but federal...
unherd.com unherd.com
 
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