MOSAIC rule to be published on 7/24

elvisAteMySandwich

elvisAteMySandwich

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elvisAteMySandwich
Quickly scanning through the document but it looks pretty good so far. Increasing weight limits to 3,000lbs, speeds to 250 knots, constant speed propellers and retractable gear. Certification standards between EAB and certificated standard category. Support for IFR.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-proposes-rule-enhance-safety-and-performance-light-sport-aircraft
https://www.federalregister.gov/pub...zation-of-special-airworthiness-certification

I'm just part way through but it looks really good compared to all the rumors I'd heard over the years. What do you think?
 
Yay, it's actually happening!
I wonder how long before it's fully codified.
 
Cool!

This part

Although sport pilots could operate aircraft designed with up to four seats, they would remain limited to operating with only one passenger.​

would make 172s, Cherokees, etc., come under LS rules. No need for a medical if you only carry one passenger.
 
"c. Codifying the Authorization for Space Support Vehicles
This proposal would codify the statutory language in 49 U.S.C. 44740 permitting the operator of an aircraft with a special airworthiness certification in the experimental category to operate the aircraft for the purpose of conducting a space support vehicle
flight while carrying persons or property for compensation or hire."

Yesss... no longer am I on the sidelines, watching only those with 3rd class medicals or higher operate Space Support Vehicles!
 
Hooray! Skimming the actual NPRM, it makes too much sense . I never believed it would ever come about. Maybe I can actually now fly the aircraft I had flown for years instead of bouncing around in a “LSA”.

Maybe the Medical system will eventually get around to the Drivers License vs SI vs Class III. But I jest.

Cheers
 
Half Fast said:
Cool!

This part

Although sport pilots could operate aircraft designed with up to four seats, they would remain limited to operating with only one passenger.​

would make 172s, Cherokees, etc., come under LS rules. No need for a medical if you only carry one passenger.
Click to expand...
Yep... Apologies to flying club members with a PPL, but I am coming for your Cessnas. And there's nothing that can stop me
(except a multi-year waiting list and voting approval from 2/3 of the current membership)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I'm thinking there is a comment period....prolly six months....then the rule is published.
Click to expand...
Three months for comments and then an FAA undetermined time to read, change and issue the rule. One can only hope 6 months total is a good estimate.
 
elvisAteMySandwich said:
Increasing weight limits to 3,000lbs,
Click to expand...
As currently proposed, the weight limit is replaced with:
"A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of
lift-enhancing devices (VS1) [...] for airplanes, which
must have a VS1 speed of not more than 54 knots CAS at the aircraft’s maximum
certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity."

Which may or may not correspond to about 3000 pounds.
Wing area will have a big impact on weight vs. stall speed.


edit:
Some models of Cessna 172 appears to squeak in by 1 knot other models do not. A more careful look is required...
 
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This is all because that rainman Zuckerberg got successfully became a student pilot.
 
....it will not grandfather fac builts into LSA maintenance rules. *yawn* y'all call me when godot gets here....*slam click*
 
It's exciting as-written. Hopefully it stays that way, as a lot can happen between now and the final rule.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
As currently proposed, the weight limit is replaced with:
"A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of
lift-enhancing devices (VS1) [...] for airplanes, which
must have a VS1 speed of not more than 54 knots CAS at the aircraft’s maximum
certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity."

Which may or may not correspond to about 3000 pounds.
Wing area will have a big impact on weight vs. stall speed.
A 172 appears to squeak in by just 1 knot (at least in the first reference I saw).
Click to expand...
How many planes with a stall speed that low will hit 250kts?
 
The "3000 pounds" is not actually in the proposal and should be ignored. "250 knots" is a just in case for aircraft manufactured under the "LSA" rules and not a limitation on sport pilots.

The actual proposed "What you can fly under S.P. rules":

61.316 What are the performance limits and design requirements for the aircraft
that a sport pilot may operate?
(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate, you may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft that, since its original certification, meets the following requirements:
(1) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of
lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS, except for airplanes, which
must have a VS1 speed of not more than 54 knots CAS at the aircraft’s maximum
certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.
(2) A maximum seating capacity of two persons, except for airplanes, which may
have a maximum seating capacity of four persons.
(3) A non-pressurized cabin, if equipped with a cabin.
(4) For powered aircraft other than powered gilders, a fixed or ground-adjustable
propeller, except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section.
(5) For powered gliders, a fixed or feathering propeller system.
(6) For gyroplanes, a fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system.
(7) For powered aircraft other than balloons or airships, the loss of partial power
would not adversely affect directional control of the aircraft and the aircraft design must
allow the pilot the capability of establishing a controlled descent in the event of a partial
or total powerplant failure.
(8) For helicopters, they must be certificated with the simplified flight controls
design and designation.
(9) For a glider, fixed or retractable landing gear.
(10) For an aircraft intended for operation on water, fixed or retractable landing
gear or a hull.
(11) For powered-aircraft other than a glider or an aircraft intended for operation
on water, fixed landing gear except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section.
(b) If you hold a sport pilot certificate, you may act as pilot in command of an
airplane that, since its original certification, has retractable landing gear or a controllable
pitch propeller if you have met the training and endorsement requirements specified in
§ 61.331
 
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The vast majority of private pilots will no longer need a medical or even basicmed... though there's no change to the "if you failed your last medical you're screwed" thing. But at least unlike basicmed you don't need that one medical.
 
Baked Potato said:
Yep... Apologies to flying club members with a PPL, but I am coming for your Cessnas. And there's nothing that can stop me
(except a multi-year waiting list and voting approval from 2/3 of the current membership)
Click to expand...
Well, the flying club can certainly stop you. Hopefully they won't!
But you'll have empty seats in the Cessna. Some club should strip out the back seats from a 172.
 
Vans doesn't seem to publish clean stall speeds... I can see that changing.

Naturally and regardless my own plane stalls at 54 kts with flaps extended, not clean :)
 
EdFred said:
How many planes with a stall speed that low will hit 250kts?
Click to expand...
Approximately zero, I think. But not many 100LL burners go that fast anyway, and those that do tend to have more than one engine, and more than four seats.
 
hindsight2020 said:
....it will not grandfather fac builts into LSA maintenance rules. *yawn* y'all call me when godot gets here....*slam click*
Click to expand...
Ultimately, max gross (and other limitations below regulatory requirements) is a limitation set by the manufacturer. If your LSA' s max gross is 1320 for structural reasons, a piece of paper is not suddenly going to make it structurally safe at 3000. But it will allow the manufacturer to increase it to what they consider to be sound. Here's hoping many do. But it does bring aircraft that were not LSA into the fold.
 
Dana said:
The vast majority of private pilots will no longer need a medical or even basicmed... though there's no change to the "if you failed your last medical you're screwed" thing. But at least unlike basicmed you don't need that one medical.
Click to expand...
There's still one major shortcoming in only being allowed one passenger though.
 
Half Fast said:
Cool!

This part

Although sport pilots could operate aircraft designed with up to four seats, they would remain limited to operating with only one passenger.​

would make 172s, Cherokees, etc., come under LS rules. No need for a medical if you only carry one passenger.
Click to expand...
Some models of 172s. Probably. Not all models of 172s. I haven't tried to look up stall speeds for the various Cherokees yet.
 
Half Fast said:
would make 172s, Cherokees, etc., come under LS rules. No need for a medical if you only carry one passenger.
Click to expand...

Not seeing how this helps Cherokees which stall at a higher speed than the restrictions in the proposed reg @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe cited.

What am I missing?
 
From what I can see, for airplanes the stall speed is going to effectively be the single limiting factor. If VS1 is that low, then it's going to meet all of the other criteria -- max number of seats, cruise speed, etc.

I know this is my disappointment with what happened with Basic Med raising its head, but I can't shake the feeling that after the comment period the max VS1 will get bumped down just enough to exclude 99% of the gains here... leaving us with slightly heavier variants of Champs, Chiefs, and Cubs. But that's just me being pessimistic.
 
Looks like the Bonanza is DQ’d….stalls at 55 dirty And GW is 3,400 lbs.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Ultimately, max gross (and other limitations below regulatory requirements) is a limitation set by the manufacturer. If your LSA' s max gross is 1320 for structural reasons, a piece of paper is not suddenly going to make it structurally safe at 3000. But it will allow the manufacturer to increase it to what they consider to be sound. Here's hoping many do. But it does bring aircraft that were not LSA into the fold.
Click to expand...
The Vashon Ranger will go up to 1500 lbs as soon as the rule is in effect (per them, I asked about it.)
 
DaleB said:
From what I can see, for airplanes the stall speed is going to effectively be the single limiting factor. If VS1 is that low, then it's going to meet all of the other criteria -- max number of seats, cruise speed, etc.

I know this is my disappointment with what happened with Basic Med raising its head, but I can't shake the feeling that after the comment period the max VS1 will get bumped down just enough to exclude 99% of the gains here... leaving us with slightly heavier variants of Champs, Chiefs, and Cubs. But that's just me being pessimistic.
Click to expand...
Just grandfathering all of the two-seat trainers, Ercoupes, etc. would be a help.
 
140s and 170s are good :happydance:

Props to all of @Brad Z's homies.
(n.b. the giving of props has no aggregate monetary value and complies with 5 CFR 2635.204)
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Just grandfathering all of the two-seat trainers, Ercoupes, etc. would be a help.
Click to expand...
It would be helpful... it's insane that you can have (for example) two Champs, identical in every respect, and one is legal under SP rules and the other is not. It makes not a lot of sense that virtually identical airplanes are treated differently because of minor differences in gross weight. Fixing only that after all the sturm und drang of MOSAIC would be a real disappointment, though. I'm hopeful that it goes through essentially as published -- or a little better, 55 or 58 kt VS1 would be great -- but skeptical.
 
The manual for my 57 172 says:
TKOuJLH.jpg


Of course that is MPH :)
 
Seems like a strange choice for stall speed. It's right in the middle of most GA trainers. DA40 is ok but a PA-28 140 isn't. Weird. At 58-60 knots you can embrace almost all of them. I read something awhile ago that was stressing wing load. Maybe it's derived from that somehow.
 
Perusing my collection of POH, DA40 made the cut but C177, AA5B, SR20 and M20 do not.
 
Jeff42899 said:
Seems like a strange choice for stall speed.
Click to expand...
It's exactly 100 km/hr, perhaps to match some Euro regulation?

But they had to draw a line somewhere that didn't include all of the GA fleet... otherwise you'd have sport pilots flying L-39s.

Might be a good time to invest in C-150s, 172s, etc...
 
Dana said:
It's exactly 100 km/hr, perhaps to match some Euro regulation?

But they had to draw a line somewhere that didn't include all of the GA fleet... otherwise you'd have sport pilots flying L-39s.

Might be a good time to invest in C-150s, 172s, etc...
Click to expand...
Well, they specifically listed turbine engines as permitted for new LSAs so who knows ,it is already getting there ….:)
 
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