Missed approach fix then what?

Trogdor

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Trogdor
So I noticed that some plates will give missed approach instructions to a fix without publishing a hold. e.g. KSNA ILS 20R has you fly basically the LOC pass the airport and direct to MINOE 10.9 DME. But no hold is published on the chart at MINOE (though ironically the alternative missed does have a published hold).

Should I reasonably expect some kind of hold clearance before MINOE? Why isn’t a hold published on the chart? Or do I assume a standard hold on 196 degree radial off of the localizer?
 
Typically, when there is no hold published it's because ATC doesn't want one. It's just a default direction to fly on the missed. If you actually use it, ATC will tell you what to do. Vector you, issue a hold, whatever. In case we get no instructions from ATC, the AIM tells us what to do (yesterday, the standard hold):

If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), then enter a standard pattern on the course on which the aircraft approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required.​

that AIM thing is pretty clever, eh?
 
Great find. I don't know how I missed that. I wish the AIM was better organized.

Thanks Mark!
 
Great find. I don't know how I missed that. I wish the AIM was better organized.

Thanks Mark!
Have you looked at the table of contents? I'm not being sarcastic. I once sat in on a private pilot oral final stage check. When they got to regulations the poor student went nuts trying to find things. I asked if I could make a suggestion. I told him to turn to the FAR table of contents and pointed out how it was organized like an outline from broad to narrow and how sections discussing related concepts were generally put together. A light went on. He had been taught specific sections, "trees" if you will, without any thought as to their connection with the whole (forest). He didn't even know there was a table of contents.

It's not perfect, but nothing is. For example, the paragraph I quoted is in the general discussion of "Holding" in the Chapter on enroute procedures and is not repeated in the discussion of missed approaches (how big do we really want it to be?), but that's part of taking the time to learn to navigate.
 
I have. I really have. But it is still tough (more so the AIM than the FAR which I can quote a lot in some areas).

EDIT: The other thing about the AIM is it should be organized more like a book then broken up in so many sections. The FAR yes, the AIM, no.
 
Could use the Search function in an e version of the FAR AIM
 
@midlifeflyer ... It's still a solid point out of what is expected to happen in the described situation.

And for your score keeping, you shared an item Ron Levy didn't teach when I took my IFR training from him. So you helped me learn something too.
 
Could use the Search function in an e version of the FAR AIM

Find me a really good e-version with a real index. The one I get with GP is laughable. The online versions are just as bad.
 
So, you’re 7600 and go missed. What will ATC be expecting?

Yeah, I know, piling one unlikely thing on top of another. This has probably happened…5 times in the history of radios?
 
So, you’re 7600 and go missed. What will ATC be expecting?

Yeah, I know, piling one unlikely thing on top of another. This has probably happened…5 times in the history of radios?

How is this any different in the published case? Hold I would assume or divert to your alternate.
 
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I have. I really have. But it is still tough (more so the AIM than the FAR which I can quote a lot in some areas).

EDIT: The other thing about the AIM is it should be organized more like a book then broken up in so many sections. The FAR yes, the AIM, no.
Revisions to FARs are carefully coordinated within FAA's various departments and FAA legal. AIM changes, however, are like grandma's quilt, with many different FAA departments having primary responsibility for the many sections of the AIM.
 
Revisions to FARs are carefully coordinated within FAA's various departments and FAA legal. AIM changes, however, are like grandma's quilt, with many different FAA departments having primary responsibility for the many sections of the AIM.

And it shows. It is just so disorganized. I have rolled up my sleeves and will attempt to really read it front to back instead of using it as a reference document like the FAR.
 
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The table of contents suggestion is quite valid.

A caveat is that some pubs have a better index than TOC. And for different people, one just makes more sense than the other.

The point is, in studying ANY pub, put some time into both, and see which works best for you.

As a non contractor, I studied for and passed the general residential, commercial and industrial test in a grand total of 4 days. The trick lay in understanding the TOC of the International Building Code. Figure that thing out, pass the test.
 
Could use the Search function in an e version of the FAR AIM
Trouble with search engines is that you have to know a string of words that is used in the document…searching “hold”, for example, would be almost useless.
Find me a really good e-version with a real index. The one I get with GP is laughable. The online versions are just as bad.
A good index is a work of art that complements the TOC. A bad index is as bad as a search engine. Collins used an automatic indexer, apparently, for their ProLine21 Pilot Guide. I had to scan/read half the book to figure out what word they used in the section header for setting an MDA or DA.

The table of contents suggestion is quite valid.

A caveat is that some pubs have a better index than TOC. And for different people, one just makes more sense than the other.

The point is, in studying ANY pub, put some time into both, and see which works best for you.

As a non contractor, I studied for and passed the general residential, commercial and industrial test in a grand total of 4 days. The trick lay in understanding the TOC of the International Building Code. Figure that thing out, pass the test.
I had to take the electrical exam to get a homeowner electrical permit in my county…Since I had no idea what was going to be on the exam, I spent my study time learning how the book was organized, and what was in the TOC and index.
 
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Not really. What section do you think holding is in? This question isn’t answered in approach section but rather ATC clearances . i still contend the AIM is a mess.
You aren't the first who wanted to fuss with the established order. Now there's weather terms, like "mist", airspace by the alphabet rather than something that actually made sense, like "control zone", and there's "line up and wait". I suppose there's more, too, but I try not to think about it. Please suffer through learning where to look rather than embarking on a campaign to make the rest of us look where you want to, ok? :)

Btw, it's here: 5−3−8. Holding , under Enroute. You cited ATC Clearances and it's there too, under Air Traffic Control.
 
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@midlifeflyer ... It's still a solid point out of what is expected to happen in the described situation.

And for your score keeping, you shared an item Ron Levy didn't teach when I took my IFR training from him. So you helped me learn something too.
That's very kind.

none of us have all the answers.
 
So, you’re 7600 and go missed. What will ATC be expecting?
I don't think they expect anything, but hope you will do something reasonable and safe. The lost comm rules end with the approach at the destination. After that, my favorite AIM section takes over. I especially like it's the very first thing in the lost comm section.
6–4–1 Two-Way Radio Communications Failure
a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).
 
You download this:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aim_basic_6_17_21.pdf

and then do the search within your PDF viewer/reader.

Is it really that difficult?

Yeah, cause that's a *great way* to read a document. And yeah, that's how I found it actually - wait no. I found it in another section. Awesome stuff.

That's my problem with it: You are treating it more like the FAR but depending on what version you use it is written like a book with chapters. Anyway, it is what it is.
 
It *IS* a great way, for me at least.

I prefer PDFs to apps or html.

But for you it sounds like a layout/format issue which I get.
 
Typically, when there is no hold published it's because ATC doesn't want one. It's just a default direction to fly on the missed. If you actually use it, ATC will tell you what to do. Vector you, issue a hold, whatever.
I have flown such approaches in my professional life. When I brief the approach, I brief this concern as a threat. My technique to mitigate this threat is ask ATC for the full missed approach instructions before I commence the approach. This way I can manage my navigation programming in a relative low workload environment. If I get complex instructions during the missed approach climb my workload goes way up.
Just my technique.
 
I have flown such approaches in my professional life. When I brief the approach, I brief this concern as a threat. My technique to mitigate this threat is ask ATC for the full missed approach instructions before I commence the approach. This way I can manage my navigation programming in a relative low workload environment. If I get complex instructions during the missed approach climb my workload goes way up.
Just my technique.
It's a good one. The fix with no hold aside, in many cases at airports where the situation is like this, you would get custom missed instructions even if there is a published hold. Those tend to be a vector and an altitude but it could be more. Definitely better to get them early before workload gets high.

I had something like that happen during a lesson. The typical custom missed at this airport for what we are doing is a simple. "Turn right heading 080. Climb and maintain 3,000." But this time, the controller told us to turn direct to the next airport in our practice sequence, not something loaded in the current flight plan. The pilot read it back dutifully but that was it, probably because it came in a high workload segment of the approach. We ended up landing instead of going missed to talk about something (unrelated), but during the debriefing I asked what heading he would have turned to is we did go missed. Bank stare was the initial response.
 
Most approaches in the US have published missed approach procedures. However, when you go to Europe, many do not. Regardless of whether there's a missed approach procedure or not, you'd best have a plan lest you find yourself out of altitude, airspeed and ideas all at the same time.

As far as the AIM/FAR goes, I bought the ASA ipad app many years ago and it's continuously updated when changes are issued. The search and other tools provided are excellent.
 
As far as the AIM/FAR goes, I bought the ASA ipad app many years ago and it's continuously updated when changes are issued. The search and other tools provided are excellent.
I have it too and agree except I'm not a big fan of the search function. It's a keyword rather than full text search. Works just fine most of the time by far, but can be a bit frustrating when you know the exact phrase you are looking for but it's not on their list of keywords.
 
Most approaches in the US have published missed approach procedures.

Most?

I'm curious, do you have any example of ones that don't? I can't remember seeing any, unless you're talking about Charted Visuals or something like that. In the U.S., this would require a waiver, so I'd be interested to see the situation.

I would also be interested in any European charts you may have that do not have missed approach procedures. My knowledge of approach procedures is somewhat parochial to US TERPS.
 
Most?

I'm curious, do you have any example of ones that don't? I can't remember seeing any, unless you're talking about Charted Visuals or something like that. In the U.S., this would require a waiver, so I'd be interested to see the situation.

I would also be interested in any European charts you may have that do not have missed approach procedures. My knowledge of approach procedures is somewhat parochial to US TERPS.
KCRQ ILS 24 says to hold at OCN but no pattern is depicted. That is not authorized on the 8260-2 for the OCN R-145.
 
Also, KSNA ILS 20R and RNAV Y 20R, miss to a fix with no mention of a hold.
 
KCRQ ILS 24 says to hold at OCN but no pattern is depicted. That is not authorized on the 8260-2 for the OCN R-145.

My question was not about the hold part of a missed approach, it was about the missed approach procedure itself. I was questioning the statement that "most" U.S. procedures have a missed approach procedure. Meaning that, presumably, some do not have a missed approach procedure. I do not know of any in the U.S., but then of course I haven't seen everything.

So I was curious to see some examples.
 
Most?

I'm curious, do you have any example of ones that don't? I can't remember seeing any, unless you're talking about Charted Visuals or something like that. In the U.S., this would require a waiver, so I'd be interested to see the situation.

I would also be interested in any European charts you may have that do not have missed approach procedures. My knowledge of approach procedures is somewhat parochial to US TERPS.
The OP provided one with no hold. If there’s one there’s bound to be others. I no longer have a Jepp subscription that covers Europe, but I have ran into a few over there. They generally give you a turn and then say proceed as directed by ATC.
 
The OP provided one with no hold. If there’s one there’s bound to be others.

I wasn't asking about missed approaches with no hold. You said:

Most approaches in the US have published missed approach procedures.

You didn't mention "holds" in this statement, so I assumed you meant that "some" procedures in the U.S. do not have missed approaches AT ALL. Meaning, the procedure ends at the MAP (like the runway), and if you don't see the airport, well, there's no missed approach to follow.

Since that would require a waiver in the U.S., I was quite skeptical, and I've never seen one. Europe may be a different matter.

But if you meant to say "missed approach holds" then it was just a typo and no worries, I got all excited to see something I'd never seen before (an approach without a missed). Missed approaches without HOLDS are fairly common.
 
Im pretty sure at least 1 approach into Cape Canaveral doesn't have a missed approach procedure.
 
I have never seen an approach with no published missed approach routing after the MAP. I have flown several where the missed approach routing ends at a fix with no depicted hold or on a an assigned heading to await further instructions from ATC.
I’ll post some examples later, if I am figure out how to do it.
 
So I noticed that some plates will give missed approach instructions to a fix without publishing a hold. e.g. KSNA ILS 20R has you fly basically the LOC pass the airport and direct to MINOE 10.9 DME. But no hold is published on the chart at MINOE (though ironically the alternative missed does have a published hold).

Should I reasonably expect some kind of hold clearance before MINOE? Why isn’t a hold published on the chart? Or do I assume a standard hold on 196 degree radial off of the localizer?
Yes you should expect some kind of a clearance from ATC, but I wouldn't say a "hold" necessarily. Holds are required at the clearance limit of the approach although ATC may request they not be charted. If they do request that they not be charted, a note with a reason should be in Form 8260-9. You can read about it here in paragraph g, like I did: FAA Order 8260.19I

Btw, the way I read it, there is a holding pattern evaluated for MINOE, but you have to get the secret instructions from ATC.
 
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Yes you should expect some kind of a clearance from ATC, but I wouldn't say a "hold" necessarily. Holds are required at the clearance limit of the approach although ATC may request they not be charted. If they do request that they not be charted, a note with a reason should be in Form 8260-9. You can read about it here in paragraph g, like I did: FAA Order 8260.19I

Btw, the way I read it, there is a holding pattern evaluated for MINOE, but you have to get the secret instructions from ATC.
The thing with the ILS20R is the Missed Approach Procedure does not end with ‘and hold’ like almost all do. The procedure is there, it is to Fix, MINOE, just don’t say ‘and hold.’ It connects with the Enroute structure, it is a Fix on V25. The I-SNA Back Course defines it on the Enroute Charts. One of them big fat ‘with additional navigation function’ feathers. MINOE has 2 Holding Patterns.

https://nfdc.faa.gov/webContent/content8260/CA_MINOE_REV14.pdf
 
Good on ya for posting that. :) So, the inbound course for each is actually opposite the AIM's default holding procedure. Hmmm...
If I’m getting you right you’re talking about what if someone is on V25 and gets MINOE as a Clearance Limit without getting holding instructions. Being able to hold at the MEA, right turns, is a requirement for the establishment of a Fix. They don’t have to actually publish that as a Holding Pattern. But it has to clear the rocks.
 
If I’m getting you right you’re talking about what if someone is on V25 and gets MINOE as a Clearance Limit without getting holding instructions. Being able to hold at the MEA, right turns, is a requirement for the establishment of a Fix. They don’t have to actually publish that as a Holding Pattern. But it has to clear the rocks.
No, just pointing out that sometimes the AIM default procedure isn't necessarily compatible with the evaluated holding airspace. Not much could go wrong here over water, but might be a consideration elsewhere.

As to your reference to being able to hold at MEA at all fixes, I believe that paragraph has been rescinded in the current version of 8260.19. It's no longer the case:

Order 8260.19H
2-10-3. Unplanned holding at designated reporting points. a. Where required for aircraft separation, ATO may request aircraft to hold at any designated reporting point in a standard holding pattern at the MEA or MRA, whichever altitude is the higher, at locations where a minimum holding altitude has not been requested. For this reason, the conditions to be considered for holding (obstacle clearance, communications, and facility performance) must be reviewed whenever reporting points are established or revised, even though specific holding authorization has not been requested by the ATC facility. b. Unplanned holding at en route fixes may be expected on airway or route radials, bearings, or courses. If the fix is a facility, unplanned holding could be on any radial or bearing. Where standard holding cannot be accomplished at the MEA or MRA, any necessary limitations must be clearly indicated on Form 8260-2.
Order 8260.19L
1-1-5. Explanation of Changes. ...
(8) Paragraph 2-10-3. Replaced requirement to always evaluate for unplanned holding at all designated reporting points with a requirement to only evaluate holding at compulsory reporting points when specifically requested by ATC.​
 
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No, just pointing out that sometimes the AIM default procedure isn't necessarily compatible with the evaluated holding airspace. Not much could go wrong here over water, but might be a consideration elsewhere.

As to your reference to being able to hold at MEA at all fixes, I believe that paragraph has been rescinded in the current version of 8260.19. It's no longer the case:

Order 8260.19H
2-10-3. Unplanned holding at designated reporting points. a. Where required for aircraft separation, ATO may request aircraft to hold at any designated reporting point in a standard holding pattern at the MEA or MRA, whichever altitude is the higher, at locations where a minimum holding altitude has not been requested. For this reason, the conditions to be considered for holding (obstacle clearance, communications, and facility performance) must be reviewed whenever reporting points are established or revised, even though specific holding authorization has not been requested by the ATC facility. b. Unplanned holding at en route fixes may be expected on airway or route radials, bearings, or courses. If the fix is a facility, unplanned holding could be on any radial or bearing. Where standard holding cannot be accomplished at the MEA or MRA, any necessary limitations must be clearly indicated on Form 8260-2.
Order 8260.19L
1-1-5. Explanation of Changes. ...
(8) Paragraph 2-10-3. Replaced requirement to always evaluate for unplanned holding at all designated reporting points with a requirement to only evaluate holding at compulsory reporting points when specifically requested by ATC.​
Well so much for that. Something I’m wondering about though. At MINOE, the controlling obstruction is “ship.” I doubt if there is some permanently anchored boat out there. So how tall is the standard ship?
 
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