LSA reality check

I’m thinking Vans and others would just give out the STC to anyone for free to enhance their name and product demand. More strategic than a straight forward / direct way to make money.
 
No undue stress here either (not with a PA28 or any of the 30+ singles I've flown). OTOH there are a lot of pilots out there who are very uncomfortable in significant crosswinds. Also, the LSA landing accident rate is fairly high compared to normal category aircraft and I know of flight schools which post higher checkout requirements for their LSAs.

That's somewhat interesting. People joke about the piloting skills of those who go for sport certificates with it's lower time requirements (the "not a real pilot" syndrome). Truth is that the training differences are minimal and not related to stick-and-rudder skill. You get a pilot certificate in an LSA and chances are you are a more skilled pilot better than someone who gets one in a 172 or PA28.

PA28 is about the easiest plane to land and arguably not ideal for a primary trainer though it seems to be in great favor, probably because so many are used by those headed to the big iron. You will always be better skilled having learned in a 172 IMHO - high wing is more responsive and also forces good rudder/aileron discipline in both take off and landing.

Suspect a lot of the landing incidents have to do with a greater preponderance of free catering nose wheels, so the student is forced to keep directional control with aileron/brake/rudder which is more demanding than either a 172 or especially with a PA28. The latter were even delivered in some versions with only a center brake handle, which should tell one about its general stability.

Most the LSAs have flown are closer in dynamics to a 150/152 which is a very good trainer. Unfortunately too many overgross wtih typical student/instructor mass.
 
PA28 is about the easiest plane to land and arguably not ideal for a primary trainer though it seems to be in great favor, probably because so many are used by those headed to the big iron. You will always be better skilled having learned in a 172 IMHO - high wing is more responsive and also forces good rudder/aileron discipline in both take off and landing.

Suspect a lot of the landing incidents have to do with a greater preponderance of free catering nose wheels, so the student is forced to keep directional control with aileron/brake/rudder which is more demanding than either a 172 or especially with a PA28. The latter were even delivered in some versions with only a center brake handle, which should tell one about its general stability.

Most the LSAs have flown are closer in dynamics to a 150/152 which is a very good trainer. Unfortunately too many overgross wtih typical student/instructor mass.
That may be the most creative "high-wing/low-wing argument" I've heard yet :D

Sorry, I'm going to disagree on a number of points. The only thing I ever found more difficult in a 172 than a PA28 was the first time I turned downwind in one. I wondered where the heck the runway went. Other than that it was a non-event to me as a month-old private pilot.

Free-castering nosewheels are not just on LSAs but certificated airplanes too - Cirrus, Diamond, and Tigers come to mind. I do a lot of transitions into the Diamonds (and taught in DA20 also). Except for the first 5 minutes of taxiing, the free-castering nosewheel is a non-event, particularly on landing. The DA40 in particular is one of the easiest airplanes to land in a significant crosswind.
 
That may be the most creative "high-wing/low-wing argument" I've heard yet :D

Sorry, I'm going to disagree on a number of points. The only thing I ever found more difficult in a 172 than a PA28 was the first time I turned downwind in one. I wondered where the heck the runway went. Other than that it was a non-event to me as a month-old private pilot.

Free-castering nosewheels are not just on LSAs but certificated airplanes too - Cirrus, Diamond, and Tigers come to mind. I do a lot of transitions into the Diamonds (and taught in DA20 also). Except for the first 5 minutes of taxiing, the free-castering nosewheel is a non-event, particularly on landing. The DA40 in particular is one of the easiest airplanes to land in a significant crosswind.
A 172 is not necessarily more difficult to fly under normal conditions. But thrown in a 15 knot crosswind and I'll venture the 172 will challenge the average pilot much more than a PA28. And for many this challenge is not relevant or necessary, but for those mired deep in the stick-and-rudder and tailwheel world, it's very germane. Plus the PA28 still has some dutch roll in it, even with the huge dihedral needed to compensate for the lack of a pendulum in a turn.

The free-castering aircraft you cite are generally not used for ab initio training, whereas LSAs are. I'd agree that any decent pilot should be able to transition quickly but the accident record suggests not always, at least if this thread is to be believed.

These observations are based on thousands of hours in all the 1 and 2 series Cessnas as well as all the PA28s. YMMV.
 
A Cub is easier to fly than a Cherokee, but the Cub is much more difficult to fly well.
 

... and it's fly by wire!

An agreement signed by the companies will see the California-based Advanced Tactics design, modify, and produce a new, improved fly-by-wire version of the Rotor X 2-seat A600 Turbo kit helicopter.

 
or EAB, the owner can just put it back into phase 1 and test it for 5 hours at the higher gross weight, log it and it's done.
I just went from six to midnight. For shame sir, lewd and lascivious on your part. :fingerwag:
 
I was fine with the 0-200; it was an "A", not the lighter "D", and the long history of reliability and simplicity was attractive. The wight didn't matter much, since carrying anothe person wasn't important to me.
The O-200 is not the best engine. We had some in the flight school fleet and they usually needed valve work at around 1000 hour or so. And they are widely suspected of not really being 100-HP engines. One prop maker in Europe uses 85 HP as the basis for his calculations for props for those engines. And I flew an Alon Aircoupe, the last iteration of the Ercoupe, that had a Continental C-90, the predecessor of the O-200. That Aircoupe had the same weight-to-HP numbers as the Cessna 150s we had, and the Aircoupe would run circles around the 150s. Took off shorter, climbed faster, cruised faster. I think the C-90's secret was that it redlined at considerably lower RPM than the O-200, and so less HP was lost to propeller drag. More of it went into thrust.

I flew a Zenair 601 that had the 80-HP Rotax 912. 1320 gross, so the weight-to-HP ratio was 16.5:1. The Cessna 150, if it really has 100 HP, would be 16:1, a bit better, but that 601 also outran the 150 every which way. Yes, the 150 is somewhat draggier, but that shouldn't affect takeoff acceleration much. The 150 is just plain slow to get going with the O-200.
 
Of course, the modern LSAs are very similar in terms of wing loading to the classic light planes like the Cub, T-Craft, Aeronca Champ, etc. If you're a big guy interested in LSA, I understand that the Champ has a reasonably roomy cockpit, though I've never flown one... I'm FAA standard size so I fit in my T-Craft, the tightest of the three.
Much easier to get into a Champ/Citabria than a T-Craft, and lots of elbow room. But a really wide guy (if you know what I mean) in the front seat can spill over the sides of the seat and make the instructor's rudder control real difficult. The aft seat's rudder pedals are beside the front seat. Don't ask me how I know....
 
A 172 is not necessarily more difficult to fly under normal conditions. But thrown in a 15 knot crosswind and I'll venture the 172 will challenge the average pilot much more than a PA28. And for many this challenge is not relevant or necessary, but for those mired deep in the stick-and-rudder and tailwheel world, it's very germane. Plus the PA28 still has some dutch roll in it, even with the huge dihedral needed to compensate for the lack of a pendulum in a turn.

The free-castering aircraft you cite are generally not used for ab initio training, whereas LSAs are. I'd agree that any decent pilot should be able to transition quickly but the accident record suggests not always, at least if this thread is to be believed.

These observations are based on thousands of hours in all the 1 and 2 series Cessnas as well as all the PA28s. YMMV.
YMMV is right. there are probably some nationwide numbers, butI think that what is "generally" used for training varies a lot once you drill down. Back with my primary, my school taught in Tomahawks although that's probably no longer the case, but I saw more 172s than PA28s. When I was in Colorado, C172s (we had 4 different training operations with maybe 60 aircraft combined) seemed far more prevalent in the training world than PA28s. There are two flight schools at my current home base. One does primary in Cessnas; the other Piper. Cirrus schools have student pilots. Diamonds are becoming very popular initial trainers.

In the Colorado Front Range where Cessnas predominated over Pipers, strong crosswinds are a daily occurrence. We used to time lessons - early morning with light winds for newer students, mid-afternoon with direct crosswinds for advanced.
 
I’m thinking Vans and others would just give out the STC to anyone for free to enhance their name and product demand. More strategic than a straight forward / direct way to make money.
Just to clear, Vans only sells an S-LSA aircraft (RV-12iS) and E-LSA (RV12iS)/E-AB (RV 3,4,6,7,8,9,10,12, and 14) kits. There’s no STC to be had as there are no TCs. As Dana described, for the S-LSA owners Vans’s will just send out an updated W&B, and for E-LSA/E-ABs the owners do it themselves per their OPLIMs If they so choose.
 
Last edited:
Just to clear, Vans only sells an S-LSA aircraft (RV-12iS) and E-LSA/E-AB kits (all of the RV models).
E-LSA kits are only available for models that have a corresponding SLSA version. All others are EAB only
 
Suspect a lot of the landing incidents have to do with a greater preponderance of free catering nose wheels, so the student is forced to keep directional control with aileron/brake/rudder which is more demanding than either a 172 or especially with a PA28. The latter were even delivered in some versions with only a center brake handle, which should tell one about its general stability.
That single brake lever was possible because there was a solid steering link between the pedals and nosewheel. Didn't really need differential braking. The Cessnas use spring bungee steering, since the nosewheel has a cam that centers it in flight, and those bungees are the rudder-centering mechanism. It adds yaw stability. Mechanics who fool with it without knowing what the service manual says usually end up with the system way out of rig.
Except for the first 5 minutes of taxiing, the free-castering nosewheel is a non-event, particularly on landing. The DA40 in particular is one of the easiest airplanes to land in a significant crosswind.
One goes through more brake pads and discs with castering nosewheels, since the steering at taxi speeds is entirely by differential braking. On many castering nosewheels there is a friction device to discourage shimmy, and that makes the steering sticky and a bit frustrating.

Every airplane is a collection of compromises.
 
One goes through more brake pads and discs with castering nosewheels, since the steering at taxi speeds is entirely by differential braking. On many castering nosewheels there is a friction device to discourage shimmy, and that makes the steering sticky and a bit frustrating.
Not my experience. Both my Grummans, my Cirrus and now my Sky Arrow all have/had free-castering nosewheels. Except in fairly strong crosswind taxiing, rudder alone works at taxi speed.

All had some amount of adjustable friction built into the system, via loaded conical washers or an actual adjustable friction damper as in my Sky Arrow. Properly adjusted they're not "sticky" nor "frustrating" at all. Adjusted too loose can result in shimmy, while too tight can result in harder steering. Key is simply to keep them adjusted properly.
 
One goes through more brake pads and discs with castering nosewheels, since the steering at taxi speeds is entirely by differential braking. On many castering nosewheels there is a friction device to discourage shimmy, and that makes the steering sticky and a bit frustrating.

Maybe. I got 500 hrs on my original pads on my castering nosewheel airplane. Probably could have gotten another hundred hours on them but decided to change them out anyway. Is 500 a lot— I dunno. My rotors are just fine too.
 
Maybe. I got 500 hrs on my original pads on my castering nosewheel airplane. Probably could have gotten another hundred hours on them but decided to change them out anyway. Is 500 a lot— I dunno. My rotors are just fine too.
I got close to 600 hours out of the tiny Marc Ingegno brake pads on my Sky Arrow. Still had some life left, but I replaced them proactively with a lightly used set a friend had removed from his CT when he switched over to MATCO brakes. Rotor are still fine. I'm sure poor technique is often the cause of short brake life with free-castering nosewheels.
 
Last edited:
Over 15 years ago I made the move from a Cirrus SR22 to a Light Sport Sky Arrow. Zero regrets. I’m just flying for fun now, and I find the simplicity of Light Sport planes refreshing.

Of course they get bounced around a bit more in turbulence, but that’s just physics. And with landing speeds around 40k, one must pay more attention to gusty crosswinds. 12G20 in a Cirrus might be trivial. Not so much in a Light Sport.

But stipulated they’re not for everyone. At 6’1” and 170 lbs I fit pretty well in most of the Light Sports I’ve flown in: REMOS, CT, C162, Aeroprakt, Evektor and maybe a couple more I’m not remembering. They all fit me fine, but I can see how a bigger/heavier pilot might find them cramped.
Aeroprakt is pretty roomy from the numbers I remember
 
On our RV-8A, the rudder is effective for steering control at a brisk walking pace. I rarely need to use differential braking.
 
I am a supporter of LSA aircraft. Just waiting for more to hit the used market at a reasonable price. My 150 can be a little tight.
 
My 150 can be a little tight.

I can relate. My Sonex has a 40" wide interior and it can be described in realtor terms as "cozy" although it is said to be the same as the C-172. Two up flying ain't bad as long as my passenger isn't too broad. Be nice if I had Bristell money ... ;)
 
Back
Top