Logging night flights

MetalCloud

MetalCloud

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MetalCloud
What happens if I depart during the day and land two hours after civil twilight? How do I log that time?
 
A simple google search has the answer right from the FAA. Also, you should be able to lookup the answer in the FAR/AIM

That period of time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight for logging our flight as “night.” One hour after sunset to one hour before sunrise for logging takeoffs and landings for recent experience currency.

So as son as civil twilight ends you can log night time but not landings. One hour after sunset you can start logging landings for night currency.

Since you said two hours after, I can only deduce that you can log 2 hours night and the landing(s) count too for night currency since it was more than one hour after.
 
Ok. What happens if you cross a timezone in the middle of that? Just calculate based on associated times at the destination right?
 
MetalCloud said:
Ok. What happens if you cross a timezone in the middle of that? Just calculate based on associated times at the destination right?
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Time zones shouldn't matter, except that whatever reference you consult for evening civil twilight may list it in local time.

Technically, I think you would need to keep looking up the time of evening civil twilight for your current location until it coincided with the current time. Then, to avoid confusion, convert that time to Zulu, and subtract it from your landing time in Zulu.

Probably more trouble than it's worth.
 
TK211X said:
Everything still applies. I found this article that explains it a bit more from AOPA.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...rt-through-the-different-definitions-of-night

The way they interpreted it I would just start logging night time when I see sun set and then the landings for night currency would be valid 1 hour after that.
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That seems too imprecise for something that's legally required and easily looked up. I would make sure the takeoffs and landings took place at least one hour after the official sunset time at the location where I did those takeoffs and landings (and at least one hour before the official sunrise).
 
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Here's the question though, do you write down the exact time of your departure and landing in your log book? I don't. I also don't see anyone who's looking at your log book taking the time to try to track every flight you made via flight aware or anything else, not that a VFR flight would even show up anyways.

It's easy to check what time sunset is, but not nearly as easy to find out exactly what time your flight was, and though the regulations are black and white nobody is really holding you to it by the minute. If they were there would be a column for time of takeoff and landing in the logbook, and that's not something I've ever seen.

Use your best judgement, and err on the side of logging less and you can't really go wrong.
 
StinkBug said:
Here's the question though, do you write down the exact time of your departure and landing in your log book? I don't.
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Me neither. I know of no requirement to log those times, so I just log the number of night takeoffs and landings.

I also don't see anyone who's looking at your log book taking the time to try to track every flight you made via flight aware or anything else, not that a VFR flight would even show up anyways.
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I agree. Most of regulatory compliance is on the honor system anyway.

It's easy to check what time sunset is, but not nearly as easy to find out exactly what time your flight was, and though the regulations are black and white nobody is really holding you to it by the minute. If they were there would be a column for time of takeoff and landing in the logbook, and that's not something I've ever seen.

Use your best judgement, and err on the side of logging less and you can't really go wrong.
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I just make sure my first takeoff is at least an hour after sunset, but your approach sounds reasonable.
 
Is it dark? Log night. Is it still daylight? Log day. Is it somewhere in between? Use your best judgement. No one is going to question you about the time in your logbook.
 
Fly what you want,log what you need ,was what an old timer told me one time. Most of the regs are on the honor system. Your only cheating yourself,if your times aren't true.
 
Most pilots use the "window method". Look out the window. If it's night log it as night. If it's daytime, log it as day.
 
Overthinking must be in the air today.

Feel the need for perfection? Write down your exact times on your scratchpad, go to the websites with sunset and sunrise times, do a bunch of calculations to account for any time zone changes, and make your logbook entries to the second or to 3 decimal places.

Or, as @coloradobluesky suggested, look out the window and estimate. While technically the amount of day or night flight time is a required entry for flights you do log, this is one of those entries where (1) there are very few certificate, ratings and privileges that require continued night flight totals, (2) your honor system entry is unlikely to be questioned or thought of as intentional logbook falsification (61.59), and (3) no one really cares about de minimus errors.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...While technically the amount of day or night flight time is a required entry for flights you do log, this is one of those entries where (1) there are very few certificate, ratings and privileges that require continued night flight totals, (2) your honor system entry is unlikely to be questioned or thought of as intentional logbook falsification (61.59), and (3) no one really cares about de minimus errors.
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If the time is not used to qualify for a certificate, rating or privilege, I thought it wasn't a required entry.
 
StinkBug said:
It's easy to check what time sunset is, but not nearly as easy to find out exactly what time your flight was, and though the regulations are black and white nobody is really holding you to it by the minute. If they were there would be a column for time of takeoff and landing in the logbook, and that's not something I've ever seen.
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Sure it is, if you use an EFB. Foreflight and Cloud Ahoy both make it easy to determine when you took off and landed. CA may even have timestamped bread crumbs, it's been a long time since I've used it so I don't recall. The only time it gets tricky is during east-west flights when the civil twilight times can shift by 15 minutes or more during a flight leg. I've been known to try to figure it out from airports along my route of flight, but I'm a bit anal about things like that and this is really overkill.
Use your best judgement, and err on the side of logging less and you can't really go wrong.
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Agree.
 
The only reason I bother with looking up civil twilight times is that I'm exercising sport pilot privileges, for which night flight is not allowed. (I just look it up for the airport at which I will be making my last landing of the day.)

When I was exercising private or higher privileges, I logged night flight time using the same criteria as for night takeoffs and landings, because I figured no one cared if I logged less night flight time than I was entitled to.
 
Palmpilot said:
That seems too imprecise for something that's legally required and easily looked up. I would make sure the takeoffs and landings took place at least one hour after the official sunset time at the location where I did those takeoffs and landings (and at least one hour before the official sunrise).
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This.
 
azure said:
Sure it is, if you use an EFB. Foreflight and Cloud Ahoy both make it easy to determine when you took off and landed.
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I was talking about OTHER people checking your log book times. I simply cant see an examiner or prospective employer going to the trouble of looking up all of your flights months or years later, nor are they going to look at foreflight or cloudahoy, neither of which I use. Those apps aren't certified or required for anything, so they aren't going to be looked at as evidence of anything. Your log book is the only thing that matters, and if it says you flew at night, then unless there's some strong evidence to the contrary, you flew at night.
 
I fly a 10 hour flight. Did I feel like I flew over half the flight at night? Yes. Log about 7.5 hours night. Was it less than half? Log about 2.5 hours of night. I just TLAR it. As others have said it is pretty much on the honor system, no one has any way of tracking down exactly how much night you got on a particular flight and as Wayne Knight said, "Nobody cares"
 
The LogbookPro app now does the calculation based on the departure and arrival airports. Not sure how it figures out what civil twilight was where you were when you encountered it but the result compares well with the "window method".
 
Overthinking.jpg
 
midlifeflyer said:
Read what 61.51 says. Also notice I said "technically". For example, I haven't logged solo in a loooonnng time.
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That's what I'm talking about. I'm not seeing even a technical requirement to log time that you're not using for anything.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.​

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.​

[emphasis added]
 
Better to overthink than to let one's ability to think atrophy, IMO. :)
 
...keeping in mind, of course, that those times are for the earth's surface...you'd need to apply the appropriate corrections for your altitude if your flight is part day and part night.

...if you REALLY want to overthink it!:D
 
Palmpilot said:
That seems too imprecise for something that's legally required and easily looked up. I would make sure the takeoffs and landings took place at least one hour after the official sunset time at the location where I did those takeoffs and landings (and at least one hour before the official sunrise).
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That doesn't always work, for instance traveling after work. Depart in the evening, sun still up, land much later, sun down. I always write down when it gets dark, which is much later at 9000 msl than on the ground way below. Night flight is then the time between then and when I land, just like flight time is the time between when I crank up and roll and when I shut down. I write that down, too, before leaving the plane, lest I forget. The set table but not moving hands on my yoke clock are handy for tracking fuel changes (whenever the minute hands overlap) and total flight time. Then I can easily count from the recorded darkness to end of flight and scribble it, too. All fits nicely in the paper I use for clearances, freq changes, climbs, descents, etc.
 
MauleSkinner said:
...keeping in mind, of course, that those times are for the earth's surface...you'd need to apply the appropriate corrections for your altitude if your flight is part day and part night.

...if you REALLY want to overthink it!:D
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Hey, I'm always up for some gratuitous over-analyzing!

My assumption is that times of sunset, twilight, etc. are defined on the ground. I could be wrong, of course, but doing otherwise would seem to me like an unnecessary complication for no purpose.

Unless you're in orbit.
 
MetalCloud said:
Ok. What happens if you cross a timezone in the middle of that? Just calculate based on associated times at the destination right?
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Wouldn't logging in Zulu time take care of all that?

I have only had two flights, with two different instructors. My first the instructor is a very good pilot with lots of experience and seemed to be very aware of the rules, etc. in other words he likes to do things right and follow the required rules. He entered the times in my log book in local time.
Next instructor, next flight, he goes to log and gets startled as he is filling in..."is your log book in local or Zulu time" "I'm not sure which it should be" "oh.." and then he fills in in local time.

Now, from this thread I realize why it probably should be in Zulu time as that stays constant right? Time zones wouldn't matter if it was in Zulu crossing timezones??

This is Norway, but as far as I can tell, the USA leads in all things aviation and most if not all rules, etc. are very similar. So, I'm not sure if one can adjust a log (or notate for a log that the times were not in Zulu) and therafter make the times be Zulu?
 
Can't speak for Norway, but in the states, your logbook is YOUR logbook. You can use whatever time you like, you can annotate as you wish. If you are building time for ratings/career you need to be careful how you annotate and have a good explaination of why you did, but that's all because there is no way to go back and verify.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Wouldn't logging in Zulu time take care of all that?

I have only had two flights, with two different instructors. My first the instructor is a very good pilot with lots of experience and seemed to be very aware of the rules, etc. in other words he likes to do things right and follow the required rules. He entered the times in my log book in local time.
Next instructor, next flight, he goes to log and gets startled as he is filling in..."is your log book in local or Zulu time" "I'm not sure which it should be" "oh.." and then he fills in in local time.

Now, from this thread I realize why it probably should be in Zulu time as that stays constant right? Time zones wouldn't matter if it was in Zulu crossing timezones??

This is Norway, but as far as I can tell, the USA leads in all things aviation and most if not all rules, etc. are very similar. So, I'm not sure if one can adjust a log (or notate for a log that the times were not in Zulu) and therafter make the times be Zulu?
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Does your personal pilot logbook have columns for the actual clock time? Mine and most I have seen just have columns for elapsed time which normally comes from either the Hobbs meter or just knowing what time I took off and landed. Elapsed time is all that really matters in the end when it comes to recording personal flight time.

Now, the aircraft logbooks that most airlines use do have columns for clock time and most if not all of those are recorded in Zulu. However, I do not think that is an issue in this thread.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Does your personal pilot logbook have columns for the actual clock time? Mine and most I have seen just have columns for elapsed time which normally comes from either the Hobbs meter or just knowing what time I took off and landed. Elapsed time is all that really matters in the end when it comes to recording personal flight time.

Now, the aircraft logbooks that most airlines use do have columns for clock time and most if not all of those are recorded in Zulu. However, I do not think that is an issue in this thread.
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Thanks, and to Mike Smith too. Good points all. Yes, it does have T/O and landing times. They do log flights electronically too, when we pay for example so there is a way back. Those I believe are logged in local time, so maybe I ought to just keep it that way. I guess I always had the idea pilot log books were kind of mandated and "flight documents" that it may even be illegal to change something in the lines, etc.

My first instructor made it a point to stress "write neatly in it!" which kind of added weight to it in my mind.
 
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