Langley AFB. Possible crash a few minutes ago.

Hugh Despenser said:
I suppose you would have Zero chance if you make the same mistake Snodgrass made.
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Another poignant example was Scott Crossfield https://www.space.com/2326-test-pilot-scott-crossfield-killed-plane-crash.html. Amazing test pilot among test pilots. Just an IFR cross country in his ordinary Cessna 210.

If you look at the background of these distinguished and legendary pilots, you might see something more than complacency. I think risk, and sometimes great risk, was such a part of their careers that risk takes on a new meaning: look at all I've done, and if it hasn't killed me yet, what will? There is a certain aura involved with fame.

And no one will forget William Anders https://www.nasa.gov/former-astronaut-william-a-anders/. Maybe over a career there is lasting mental and physical stress, not the least of which is age, which brings higher probability of forgetfulness or even incapacitation.

One could argue a private pilot coming from a good instructor or flight school could be just as safe as the heroes who have done it all. Ideally he or she is mentally disciplined and will monitor and avoid risks like the plague. Checklists and honesty starting with yourself, then passengers or employer, or both.
 
Many people seem to think that an expert cannot ever make a mistake. They can and do. Frequently. That doesn’t mean they were not an expert. Only that they are human.
 
Piperonca said:
Another poignant example was Scott Crossfield https://www.space.com/2326-test-pilot-scott-crossfield-killed-plane-crash.html. Amazing test pilot among test pilots. Just an IFR cross country in his ordinary Cessna 210.

If you look at the background of these distinguished and legendary pilots, you might see something more than complacency.
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Sometimes you can do everything right and come to a bad end. Sometimes, you do a little thing wrong and come to a bad end. Other times, it is a major mistake. Gann wrote an entire book on it.

Being a great pilot reduces your risk on any given flight. But if you fly enough...
 
The NTSB did do a press briefing yesterday and released a few tidbits of info. He was on approach for a "normal landing." The plane crashed between a runway and taxiway, and never made contact with the runway. There is audio of him with tower, but NTSB has not reviewed it yet. They anticipate releasing more info in 2 to 3 days.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The NTSB did do a press briefing yesterday and released a few tidbits of info. He was on approach for a "normal landing." The plane crashed between a runway and taxiway, and never made contact with the runway. There is audio of him with tower, but NTSB has not reviewed it yet. They anticipate releasing more info in 2 to 3 days.
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That briefing is linked above
 
Snodgrass made a mistake in pre-flight. McSpadden had an engine failure on take-off at an airport without any great options. Experience and skill don't make someone immune from either mistakes or luck.

But Ernest Gann lived to 81, and passed away from illness. Likewise Bob Hoover at 94, Chuck Yeager at 97, Pappy Boyington at 75, and Eric Brown at 96. There are many more examples. It's more than possible to have a life of flying and still suffer from the same type of boring demise as many others.
 
Albany Tom said:
Snodgrass made a mistake in pre-flight. McSpadden had an engine failure on take-off at an airport without any great options. Experience and skill don't make someone immune from either mistakes or luck.

But Ernest Gann lived to 81, and passed away from illness. Likewise Bob Hoover at 94, Chuck Yeager at 97, Pappy Boyington at 75, and Eric Brown at 96. There are many more examples. It's more than possible to have a life of flying and still suffer from the same type of boring demise as many others.
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And I kinda look at it the way Lindbergh did:

Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Aviation combined all the elements I loved. There was science in each curve of an airfoil, in each angle between strut and wire, in the gap of a spark plug or the color of the exhaust flame. There was freedom in the unlimited horizon, on the open fields where one landed. A pilot was surrounded by beauty of earth and sky. He brushed treetops with the birds, leapt valleys and rivers, explored the cloud canyons he had gazed at as a child. Adventure lay in each puff of wind.​
​
I began to feel that I lived on a higher plane than the skeptics of the ground; one that was richer because of its very association with the element of danger they dreaded, because it was freer of the earth to which they were bound. In flying, I tasted a wine of the gods of which they could know nothing. Who valued life more highly, the aviators who spent it on the art they loved, or these misers who doled it out like pennies through their antlike days? I decided that if I could fly for ten years before I was killed in a crash, it would be a worthwhile trade for an ordinary lifetime.​
​
-- Charles Lindbergh​

Considering I've managed more than two ordinary lifetimes' worth of flying, it has definitely been a worthwhile trade.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And I kinda look at it the way Lindbergh did:

Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could you ask of life? Aviation combined all the elements I loved. There was science in each curve of an airfoil, in each angle between strut and wire, in the gap of a spark plug or the color of the exhaust flame. There was freedom in the unlimited horizon, on the open fields where one landed. A pilot was surrounded by beauty of earth and sky. He brushed treetops with the birds, leapt valleys and rivers, explored the cloud canyons he had gazed at as a child. Adventure lay in each puff of wind.​
​
I began to feel that I lived on a higher plane than the skeptics of the ground; one that was richer because of its very association with the element of danger they dreaded, because it was freer of the earth to which they were bound. In flying, I tasted a wine of the gods of which they could know nothing. Who valued life more highly, the aviators who spent it on the art they loved, or these misers who doled it out like pennies through their antlike days? I decided that if I could fly for ten years before I was killed in a crash, it would be a worthwhile trade for an ordinary lifetime.​
​
-- Charles Lindbergh​

Considering I've managed more than two ordinary lifetimes' worth of flying, it has definitely been a worthwhile trade.
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My dad ran a little airport up in Tennessee, from the late 40s to the 70s. That’s where I grew up. Flying was different then, looser than today. It was quite an upbringing listening to all the stories told by the transient pilots who found us to be a convenient refueling stop along Victor 16. One time a fellow stopped by and he and dad were chatting about the time up in Connecticut, I think it was, this guy had been at an airfield and there was this tall older man preflighting a Cherokee—very, very carefully going over seemingly every rivet on the airplane. One of the younger pilots at the airport saw from a distance and mocked the old man out there on the ramp for being a fraidycat. And so our visitor asked him don’t you know who that is? The youngster said no. “That’s Charles A. Lindbergh.”

I thought about that years later and finally understood. Lindbergh was thorough about everything he did in preparing for flight, whether crossing the Atlantic solo or an ordinary flight in the countryside. Can you imagine the headline if he’d made a simple mistake and crashed a little Cherokee?
 
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Piperonca said:
Lindbergh was thorough about everything he did in preparing for flight, whether crossing the Atlantic solo or an ordinary flight in the countryside.
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That's encouraging to hear. A thorough preflight--particularly if I haven't flown my plane for a couple of weeks--is something I absolutely refuse to rush or compromise even though it takes me a bit longer to get into the air than some others. I heard some folks chuckling at me the other day on the ramp as I was crawling under my Cherokee's wing checking tire pressures. I guess they had been watching me inspecting my aircraft. Then the old guy in the group says "I guess he's a good pilot" and the laughter stopped. That was nice. :D

Somewhere along the way I heard the observation that the preflight was your last chance to find the thing that was going to kill you, and that stuck with me. Echoes in my head every time I do the preflight. My habit is to leave the nosewheel chocked while I do the preflight, and then not remove it until I've done a final 360 from 20 feet away to double-check the forest that I might not have seen for the trees. I think that's important. If I forget that step, I'm quickly reminded when it takes full-power to begin to taxi!
 
AvNavCom said:
...preflight was your last chance to find the thing that was going to kill you...
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Powerful words to fly by. I really don't understand why people feel the need to "chuckle" or whatever about someone's preflight routine. I've heard this a lot but have yet to experience it myself. This ain't a golf game.

Back to the topic at hand, though...I kinda hope it was a medical issue on final. Died doing what he loved and all that jazz but also, there'd be no room for the contention that a professional pilot made a mistake.
 
Piperonca said:
If you look at the background of these distinguished and legendary pilots, you might see something more than complacency. I think risk, and sometimes great risk, was such a part of their careers that risk takes on a new meaning: look at all I've done, and if it hasn't killed me yet, what will? There is a certain aura involved with fame.
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I'm not sure how many fellows like this you know personally, but I've known and flown with a handful. In my experience, they tend toward becoming more and more conservative in their airmanship and judgment as their career -- especially the post-military or airshow career -- moves on.

Snodgrass (whom I only had a brief time knowing) was the exception, in that he continued to fly basically the same aggressive-but-calculated way after leaving the Navy and through all his airshow career.
 
Word around the campfire is a certain flight control failure but I won't elaborate since nothing is official.
 
Nobody chimed in on Bozo. It is an award at Sebring, one of the longest held aerobatics contests in the US, given to the pilot who most distinguishes himself by a foolish or embarrassing action at the contest. The winner is required to dress as Bozo the clown at the contest awards banquet the following year and preside over the announcement of his successor. Has been going on since 1982, and some very well known names are on that plaque.
 
Hacker said:
I'm not sure how many fellows like this you know personally, but I've known and flown with a handful. In my experience, they tend toward becoming more and more conservative in their airmanship and judgment as their career -- especially the post-military or airshow career -- moves on.

Snodgrass (whom I only had a brief time knowing) was the exception, in that he continued to fly basically the same aggressive-but-calculated way after leaving the Navy and through all his airshow career.
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I knew Rob Holland well. He, Jen and Buddy stayed at our home whenever he was training at UCY. I was there last week 4/18-4/20. Easter Sunday after I preflighted my plane to head back to IL, I walked into the hangar to say one last goodbye to Rob and Jen. We parted after a hug and goodbye with, “see you in a few weeks…”. Love on those you love everyday the best you can.

He was kind, generous with his time, and ultimately humble as a person. He was a meticulous master of physics and energy management as a pilot. He’d work for years perfecting new maneuvers other pilots said were impossible. While he was the best aerobatic pilot, he wasn’t a show off, reckless, or ever anything other than a consummate pro who was very meticulously precise.

He was also very actively involved with the inspections and maintenance of the MXs-RH. He knew every piece of the plane intimately. On 3/13, I walked into the hangar after 5:30 pm, only to find him under the plane going over it.

He was a very special person. Such an incredibly great loss, beyond what words can express.
 
Flyer Scott said:
I knew Rob Holland well. He, Jen and Buddy stayed at our home whenever he was training at UCY. I was there last week 4/18-4/20. Easter Sunday after I preflighted my plane to head back to IL, I walked into the hangar to say one last goodbye to Rob and Jen. We parted after a hug and goodbye with, “see you in a few weeks…”. Love on those you love everyday the best you can.

He was kind, generous with his time, and ultimately humble as a person. He was a meticulous master of physics and energy management as a pilot. He’d work for years perfecting new maneuvers other pilots said were impossible. While he was the best aerobatic pilot, he wasn’t a show off, reckless, or ever anything other than a consummate pro who was very meticulously precise.

He was also very actively involved with the inspections and maintenance of the MXs-RH. He knew every piece of the plane intimately. On 3/13, I walked into the hangar after 5:30 pm, only to find him under the plane going over it.

He was a very special person. Such an incredibly great loss, beyond what words can express.
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Thank you for sharing your feelings and we do understand beyond the words you expressed. So sorry for the loss of an exceptional father, husband, friend, and aviation icon. Prayers to all.
 
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AvNavCom said:
Somewhere along the way I heard the observation that the preflight was your last chance to find the thing that was going to kill you, and that stuck with me.
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I lost a very good friend a few years ago. He and his friend, both pilots, had both got married and they were taking the plane to fuel so they could take their new wives on a honeymoon trip. They didn't preflight... two pilots, neither of them checked for water in the fuel and it cost them their lives. If someone laughs at you for preflighting, they're morons.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
The winner is required to dress as Bozo the clown at the contest awards banquet the following year and preside over the announcement of his successor.
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Bozo caught in the wild this past weekend:

Screenshot_20250428-124641.png

On the rudder of the Extra pictured earlier:

PXL_20250426_162831588~2.jpg
 
SLB said:
So, exactly what kind of behavior wins you time in the clown suit? Details, please. We could all use a bit of humor.
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This one was an easy call. He ran over a taxiway sign directly in front of the contest judges. He cut the corner too tight at an intersection and hit the sign with the aileron spade on an MX2. A $500K borrowed airplane. The owner was a judge and watched it happen. Made a LOUD bang.

Airplane was previously owned by Rob Holland, btw.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
This one was an easy call. He ran over a taxiway sign directly in front of the contest judges. He cut the corner too tight at an intersection and hit the sign with the aileron spade on an MX2. A $500K borrowed airplane. The owner was a judge and watched it happen. Airplane was previously owned by Rob Holland, btw.
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He's lucky the judge/owner didn't turn it into a Darwin award.....
 
Half Fast said:
Hoo boy. How bad is the repair?
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Doesn't look too bad so far. Spade shovel broke in half and there is some rash on the bottom skin.

But .... TBD if any damage to the aileron hinge mounts. Composite aircraft have some voodoo involved in structural evaluation.
 
Hacker said:
Such a mistake wouldn't make him any less than what he was. We're not talking about super-humans in this thread. Just highly talented people to whom ordinary things happened.
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I absolutely agree...however as we've seen in the court of public opinion, planes are falling out of the sky at an alarming rate and it's all the president's fault. I'd hate for any of those knucklehead keyboard warriors to have any more fuel for their fires.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Composite aircraft have some voodoo involved in structural evaluation.
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Uh huh. Micro cracks, delam, broken internal fibers, etc., etc. It can be hard to detect some types of damage. Best bet is to probably just replace the entire wing and hand Bozo the bill. :devil:
 
GaryM said:
No biggie. Grab the sign and tug it back to a more or less upright position. There will be some kinks left in the support posts, but…

Oh, that probably wasn’t what you were asking.
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A repair crew was working on the sign for most of the second day of the contest, which heightened the hilarity of it.
 
Ed Haywood said:
This one was an easy call. He ran over a taxiway sign directly in front of the contest judges. He cut the corner too tight at an intersection and hit the sign with the aileron spade on an MX2. A $500K borrowed airplane. The owner was a judge and watched it happen. Made a LOUD bang.

Airplane was previously owned by Rob Holland, btw.
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Damn. The only things he didn't do was run over the guy's dog and spill his scotch.
 
Very little news coming out? Because it happened at a Air Force Base? No witness statements?
Posted elsewhere.
"But then I realized it was the location. There is absolutely no chance that there is no video or firsthand witness accounts of that crash. Langley Air Force Base is one of most sensitive military installations anywhere and every angle of that tragedy has been recorded. Obviously the military has determined that only the people actually investigating the crash will get to see the data and while I understand that sentiment I wonder if it's a bit outdated."
 
bonefishpete said:
Very little news coming out? Because it happened at a Air Force Base? No witness statements?
Posted elsewhere.
"But then I realized it was the location. There is absolutely no chance that there is no video or firsthand witness accounts of that crash. Langley Air Force Base is one of most sensitive military installations anywhere and every angle of that tragedy has been recorded. Obviously the military has determined that only the people actually investigating the crash will get to see the data and while I understand that sentiment I wonder if it's a bit outdated."
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Not at all outdated. There is no legitimate public interest in releasing the video prior to the report. Satisfying his fans, Youtube speculators (aka amateur investigators), people who just want it for clickbait profit, and anti-GA groups are not valid reasons for posting it.

“We will update you when the investigation has reached a more mature stage. At this time there is no indication that the factors in this mishap have an effect on other aviation activities or public safety. You will be notified via a press release when more information is available. Thank you.”
 
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