Know-it-alls in the pattern

Larry in TN said:
The charted pattern direction is not mandatory. It can be wrong.

14 CFR 91.126 (and incorporated by reference into 91.127)



I've twice found airports where the charting did not agree with the "approved light signals or visual marking". First one I ignored. Years later, I got the second one fixed by bringing it to the attention of the airport manager. He had the references to a right pattern removed from the charting and A/FD. (I presume that was cheaper to do than installing a segmented circle)
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My local airport has a somewhat unclear situation in that the AFD and chart say RP 18. But there is no segmented circle to indicate anything. There used to be, but at some point it was removed. So there are NO visual markings or light signals (not sure what a light signal would be anyway) to indicate right traffic.

So... Is right traffic required? It's (mostly) followed anyway, but the way the reg reads, only those markings make it right traffic, not the book or the chart.
 
People can't seem to figure out that Rwy 05 is the calm/light wind runway at KGIF. It's in the chart supplement and the airport has emailed reminders to all residents and had meetings with the local flight schools, but still....

A few days ago the wind was calm, I was on the 45 to downwind for 05, another plane was on final for 05, and a plane was holding short for take off on 05, and we were all using our radios. A plane inbound from the south radioed he would enter the downwind for 23. I keyed up and simply said "Zero five is in use at Winter Haven now. Zero five." He responded with a "Thanks" and said that he would overfly and set up for 05.

Fine. All normal stuff, a typical Tue morning at any uncontrolled drome.

But, as I was turning base for 05, the plane that had been holding short started his takeoff roll, only to immediately announce he was aborting. I asked if there was something on the runway, and he said "Yeah, another plane, trying to take off on 23." Then he added, "You'll be okay, I just saw him exit the runway," so I went ahead and set down on 05.

Now we had two of us in the pattern, one plane setting up for pattern entry, and one holding short. All of us making calls, and even advising the inbound aircraft. Four planes using 05, and still some bozo tries to take off on 23.

I didn't see the plane, but in the past couple of weeks we've had problems with two flight schools using the wrong runway, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn this was another incident.

Grumble....
 
Half Fast said:
People can't seem to figure out that Rwy 05 is the calm/light wind runway at KGIF. It's in the chart supplement and the airport has emailed reminders to all residents and had meetings with the local flight schools, but still....

A few days ago the wind was calm, I was on the 45 to downwind for 05, another plane was on final for 05, and a plane was holding short for take off on 05, and we were all using our radios. A plane inbound from the south radioed he would enter the downwind for 23. I keyed up and simply said "Zero five is in use at Winter Haven now. Zero five." He responded with a "Thanks" and said that he would overfly and set up for 05.

Fine. All normal stuff, a typical Tue morning at any uncontrolled drome.

But, as I was turning base for 05, the plane that had been holding short started his takeoff roll, only to immediately announce he was aborting. I asked if there was something on the runway, and he said "Yeah, another plane, trying to take off on 23." Then he added, "You'll be okay, I just saw him exit the runway," so I went ahead and set down on 05.

Now we had two of us in the pattern, one plane setting up for pattern entry, and one holding short. All of us making calls, and even advising the inbound aircraft. Four planes using 05, and still some bozo tries to take off on 23.

I didn't see the plane, but in the past couple of weeks we've had problems with two flight schools using the wrong runway, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn this was another incident.

Grumble....
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Too bad 23 isn't grass ...
 
RussR said:
My local airport has a somewhat unclear situation in that the AFD and chart say RP 18. But there is no segmented circle to indicate anything.
So... Is right traffic required? It's (mostly) followed anyway, but the way the reg reads, only those markings make it right traffic, not the book or the chart.
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Then right traffic is technically a violation of 91.126. Bring it to the attention of the airport manager. It's his job to make sure his aircraft is compliant. If there is a good reason why right traffic should be used, he should install a segmented circle. Otherwise, have the chart and A/FD notations removed.
 
One airport I used to frequent had Runways 9 and 27 published. But we also had 27G, 27R, 26, 25 . . . the grass on the "glider side" had a right hand pattern and various identities. Wind was almost always west to east . . . but, due to hangars and trees, there was no 9G, 9L, 8 or 7.
 
Larry in TN said:
Then right traffic is technically a violation of 91.126. Bring it to the attention of the airport manager. It's his job to make sure his aircraft is compliant. If there is a good reason why right traffic should be used, he should install a segmented circle. Otherwise, have the chart and A/FD notations removed.
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Oh, right traffic is definitely appropriate, and it has been right traffic for decades, likely since the airport was first developed, due to the proximity of a Class D airport on one side. And like I said, it had a segmented circle at one time (up until 2013 according to Google Earth's historical imagery).

I think that's right around the time the current owner bought it (it's a privately-owned, public-use airport), I'm not sure if there's a connection there (nor do I have any idea why there would be).

I'll ask the airport manager about it.
 
Larry in TN said:
Then right traffic is technically a violation of 91.126. Bring it to the attention of the airport manager. It's his job to make sure his aircraft is compliant. If there is a good reason why right traffic should be used, he should install a segmented circle. Otherwise, have the chart and A/FD notations removed.
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§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight...

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required...

AIM 4-3-3-
On Sectional, Aeronautical, and VFR Terminal Area Charts, right traffic patterns are indicated at public-use and joint-use airports with the abbreviation “RP” (for Right Pattern), followed by the appropriate runway number(s) at the bottom of the airport data block.
 
The light indication of right traffic went out about the same time as triangular patterns for radio loss.
 
brien23 said:
It’s great to have people around you who are willing to share their knowledge and advice about flying when you need it, but not so much when it’s coming from a place of arrogance. When someone does something wrong in the pattern and a Know-it -all jumps in on the radio blocking any other aircraft from talking till he is done, seems like it is getting worse now than ever. Is Civility in aviation worse today compared to 10 years ago.
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Sounds like the internet.
 
dmspilot said:
Why? What would be the point? Maybe they don't follow it because of institutionalized complacency.


The one mile at a time article said the CA talked to the controller and told him that the FMS commanded the left turn and the FO followed it. The CA said he felt it wasn't right. He probably had a startle response and took awhile to intervene.
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dmspilot said:
§ 91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight...

§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required...

AIM 4-3-3-
On Sectional, Aeronautical, and VFR Terminal Area Charts, right traffic patterns are indicated at public-use and joint-use airports with the abbreviation “RP” (for Right Pattern), followed by the appropriate runway number(s) at the bottom of the airport data block.
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How does one check to see if FAA legal has issued an opinion if publication of right patterns on charts and AFD would be considered as "displayed" per 91.126 (b) (1) "…unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right…"
 
RussR said:
Oh, right traffic is definitely appropriate, and it has been right traffic for decades, likely since the airport was first developed, due to the proximity of a Class D airport on one side.
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In my case, it was a part-time towered airport. The tower used right traffic for two runways because it was easier for them. It kept all of the traffic on the same side of the tower. There wasn't any reason to use RP when the tower was closed.

flyingron said:
The light indication of right traffic went out about the same time as triangular patterns for radio loss.
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Yep. I started flying in 1981 and never saw one. I'm amazed that it is still in the regulation.
 
kaiser said:
I've never had any pattern cops after me. or at least that I'm aware of.
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Many years ago I landed at a non-towered field near Detroit. As I was fueling the plane, a guy came up to me and said, "You just cut me and my student out of the downwind." I said, "I'm sorry, I didn't hear any radio calls."

"Where did you learn to fly?" he demanded.

"United States Air Force," I replied, "how about you?"

He got all red in the face and walked away.
 
This reminds me of something that happened 25 years ago when I moved to a new city and started flying out of a new airport. On one of my first flights with a new student, there was only one other aircraft in the pattern. It was already on final so I followed it on a straight-in approach and landed after it - there was nothing of interest to note. Before we even unbuckled out of the cockpit, a very enthusiastic CFI from the other aircraft walked up and immediately chewed me out: "Let me tell you something about this airport. We don’t do straight-ins here".I politely introduced myself and explained that I didn’t see any risk - I had his aircraft in sight the entire time. But he was simply bothered that I wasn’t following a local practice he was pushing, and decided that was worth yelling at me in front of my student. A quarter of a century later, I still remember that moment. It’s a reminder that how we speak to others matters. Our words can leave a lasting impression - sometimes in ways we don’t intend or hope for.
 
sarangan said:
This reminds me of something that happened 25 years ago when I moved to a new city and started flying out of a new airport. On one of my first flights with a new student, there was only one other aircraft in the pattern. It was already on final so I followed it on a straight-in approach and landed after it - there was nothing of interest to note. Before we even unbuckled out of the cockpit, a very enthusiastic CFI from the other aircraft walked up and immediately chewed me out: "Let me tell you something about this airport. We don’t do straight-ins here".I politely introduced myself and explained that I didn’t see any risk - I had his aircraft in sight the entire time. But he was simply bothered that I wasn’t following a local practice he was pushing, and decided that was worth yelling at me in front of my student. A quarter of a century later, I still remember that moment. It’s a reminder that how we speak to others matters. Our words can leave a lasting impression - sometimes in ways we don’t intend or hope for.
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Someone did something very similar to me too, except it was only 11 years ago, and it wasn't a local custom, just his opinion.
 
sarangan said:
This reminds me of something that happened 25 years ago when I moved to a new city and started flying out of a new airport.
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Just moved to a new airport after ~40 years at my previous one. Am treading VERY lightly, as to working in the pattern. The runway slopes uphill towards trees, and, until a few years ago, was a take-off-downhill situation unless the wind was really strong. Last flight, I took off in the same direction as the plane in front of me...except a Bonanza landed in the opposite direction in the meantime. And as I was doing my full-stop landings (touch and goes prohibited), another plane came in and wanted to land in the opposite direction.

I love the airport, but am real cautious about not offending anyone in these early days. My airplane is too identifiable.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Actually I have a tale of the FBO NAZI. The spouse of the Charter captain here used to run the flight school. When I was interviewing the airport (and they, I), I saw that two C 150s were parked in front of the pumps.I asked the FBO for fuel. Two hours later, no fuel. So I by hand moved a 150 back nosed in and took fuel.

As I went back to the FBO to pay for the fuel, An older CFI approached me and tol me I had no right to move the FBO's airplane. "You'll have to learn how we do things here". I took fuel at C09 instead. I didn't say much.

Two weeks later I returned to see a house. Same deal, no effort to get me fuel. But then I had signed my current office lease. I walked into the FBO again two hours after no fuel. I spoke to the FBO manager- "You'll have to learn how we do things here". I explained that I too had an office here, it was also my airport and what I do. She went silent.

About a minute later she said, "can we start over?". I said, "sure"...but I had already talked to the airport manager, who rolled his eyes when I said, "do you know what your front end is doing?" He knew and had been trying to "fix the unfixable broken".

Fast forward. She is gone. CFI is gone, School is gone, and under different management. Charter Captain divorced her.
And I"m still here eight years later.

Take Note: It does not behoove one to be an unnecessary a__hole.
 
Half Fast said:
People can't seem to figure out that Rwy 05 is the calm/light wind runway at KGIF. It's in the chart supplement and the airport has emailed reminders to all residents and had meetings with the local flight schools, but still....
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Runway 05 is "PREFERRED FOR CALM OR LIGHT WINDS" but there is no runway 05 at Winter Haven (nor anywhere else in the US)... Only Runway 5. :p
 
farmrjohn said:
How does one check to see if FAA legal has issued an opinion if publication of right patterns on charts and AFD would be considered as "displayed" per 91.126 (b) (1) "…unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right…"
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An AI search resulted in a yes answer, based on AC90-66C, paragraph 8.2 which states:

8.2 Regulatory provisions relating to traffic patterns are found in 14 CFR parts 91, 93, and 97. The airport traffic patterns described in part 93 relate primarily to those airports where there is a need for unique traffic pattern procedures not provided for in part 91. Part 97 addresses instrument approach procedures (IAP). At airports without operating control towers, part 91 requires only that pilots of airplanes approaching to land make all turns to the left, unless the airport’s Chart Supplement or the airport’s segmented circle indicates a different traffic pattern flow.

That said, Advisory Circulars are advisory, not regulatory, so how does one ask the question to FAA legal?
 
farmrjohn said:
"part 91 requires only that pilots of airplanes approaching to land make all turns to the left, unless the airport’s Chart Supplement or the airport’s segmented circle indicates a different traffic pattern flow"
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farmrjohn said:
That said, Advisory Circulars are advisory, not regulatory, so how does one ask the question to FAA legal?
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Well, the AC is advising you of the FAA's interpretation of Part 91, isn't it? Is a letter to the CC really necessary? They recently stated they won't be answering frivilous questions. I am reasonably confident that the FAA-published AC and the FAA-published CS in combination with 91.126(a) are adequate to legally establish right traffic patterns without "approved light signals or visual markings". Any other interpretation could result in chaos.

The address to write to them is here: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/contacts
 
dmspilot said:
Well, the AC is advising you of the FAA's interpretation of Part 91, isn't it? Is a letter to the CC really necessary? They recently stated they won't be answering frivilous questions. I am reasonably confident that the FAA-published AC and the FAA-published CS in combination with 91.126(a) are adequate to legally establish right traffic patterns without "approved light signals or visual markings". Any other interpretation could result in chaos.

The address to write to them is here: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/contacts
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I agree with you, thanks for the address. Because of other comments on this erudite forum I'd like to get "official" clarification from FAA legal for posting here, unless they indeed consider it frivolous. In that case I'll still go with RP as depicted in/on publications in the absence of an airport's display of approved light signals or visual markings.
 
farmrjohn said:
That said, Advisory Circulars are advisory, not regulatory, so how does one ask the question to FAA legal?
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What am I missing??? The AC references the related Regs. So you'd ask about the Regs and you could also reference the AC.

The AIM, ACs, etc. a lot of people will stand on a pulpit and claim they're not regulatory... But there are cases where people have been dinged for not following them.

ADDED: And I should have kept a list of the ones I've seen people post over the years. If anyone knows of specic cases, please post them.
 
farmrjohn said:
In that case I'll still go with RP as depicted in/on publications in the absence of an airport's display of approved light signals or visual markings.
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The problem is that there is conflicting information and different pilots could come to different conclusions on the correct pattern direction by looking at at official source of information and neither one is wrong. The situation needs to be brought to the airport manager's attention as it is his job to ensure that the information, both on the field and in the publications, is correct.
 
Lots of small fields have no markings at all on the field but still may call for right traffic. One grass strip near me (9B8) is charted RP17 but has no markings, even the wind sock is hard to spot... but until a few years ago had a VASI!
 
Shepherd said:
Good stuff.
But I see a business opportunity.

I'm going to have a bunch of "Pattern Cop" badges made, with a nice shiny finish, and see if I can sell them.
Maybe I could even offer the option of adding the airport info to make it look super official.
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Make sure they are all badge number Five (Fife)
 
pattern cops around here turn “left final” all the time. Not sure what that means but may sign up for a few lessons…
 
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