Kimberlyanne

[RyanShort1]

I think it's entirely appropriate to talk about what behavior is acceptable and what is not.

That's true. I will say that's true.

 

[Doggtyred]

Finally! Someone who gets it.

Okay, as usual, this place is spinning one person's conjecture into absolute truth.

There is no evidence that Kimberly left POA for any reason other than because she has stopped flying due to some health issues, and is super busy with a new job. Those are the reasons she gave me, and I will take them at face value until SHE says otherwise.

Actually.. this very thread's deterioration embodies the substance and soul of why she told me she contributed/participated less and less here at POA... which she shared with me a couple years back. We didn't chat frequently, but shes still got the flying bug and LOVES aviation. Shes just not spending her precious time "here".

My conjecture:
I'm betting she's out there spending time around other people who love aviation and aren't such a toxic group to be around. This group as a whole can take someone who is eager, excited and on fire about flying, and drain the joy from them. I'm guilty of my own part in all that group behavior too..

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I think it should be noted I have seriously dialed back the usage of the word Dick in my posts.

 

[timwinters]

Me too. My point being, the ridiculous online flirting that goes on when ever a female member of a forum starts posting with a picture that shows them to be pretty kinda makes me nauseous.

It was always hilarious how, almost every time Kimberly started a thread, there'd be 100 responses in less than 24 hours. Guys stumbled all over each other to respond. Amazingly, the same ones every time. It was reminiscent of how in middle school the boys went all gaga over the first girl to sprout boobs.

And then the reaction of some of the other women here to Kimberly getting so much attention was equally hilarious, especially Lynn's. This wasn't an online thing, this was an in-person at fly-ins thing.

 

[Palmpilot]

It was always hilarious how, almost every time Kimberly started a thread, there'd be 100 responses in less than 24 hours. Guys stumbled all over each other to respond. Amazingly, the same ones every time. It was reminiscent of how in middle school the boys went all gaga over the first girl to sprout boobs.

Why did this bother you? Were you jealous?

Many male pilots have a postive emotional response to attractive female pilots who are as enthusiastic about flying as she is. I don't see a problem with that, other than the weirdos who felt compelled to send lewd photos.

 

[timwinters]

Why did this bother you? Were you jealous?

Okay, you caught me. Yes, I was indeed jealous. I wasn't getting any dick pics sent to me and I was pizzed off about that.

 

[Palmpilot]

That sounds more like envy.

 

[bikert]

Okay, you caught me. Yes, I was indeed jealous. I wasn't getting any dick pics sent to me and I was pizzed off about that.

PM sent.

Everyone needs to enjoy the pleasure of receiving unwanted pictures of male genitalia.

You're welcome.

 

[N747JB]

PM sent.

Everyone needs to enjoy the pleasure of receiving unwanted pictures of male genitalia.

You're welcome.

Someone pranked a guy at work with a Craigslist ad, men for men with his picture in a sweater holding his puppy. He's not gay, but the picture certainly gave the impression that he was. So the ad said something about needing to meet someone for fun and asked for "pictures of what I'll be working with" and his cellphone number! He got a lot of dick pics!!!!!!!!!!!! He almost had a nervous breakdown, every time his phone would be beep, he started cussing and shaking. It was hilarious!

 

[catmandu]

Me too. My point being, the ridiculous online flirting that goes on when ever a female member of a forum starts posting with a picture that shows them to be pretty kinda makes me nauseous.

Oh, for the good old days of pictureless rec.aviation, when the homely could get a little flirting as well.

 

[Ted]

Kimberly may have complained about some of the bad posts sent her way, but keep in mind that she also sent some... revealing pictures of herself to people on here (including someone who was a minor at the time). That doesn't excuse the behavior, of course, but the story is a bit more than her just getting unsolicited pictures.

@SCCutler, I happen to agree with @timwinters that women are typically not treated well here. Laurie no longer participates primarily because she got sick of the poor way female pilots were treated here (mostly by men who themselves don't have much of a pickup line besides "You know what a C-130 is? Well I fly a C-150!"). Keep in mind, she flew helicopters off shore to oil rigs, so she's got thick skin and can dish it right back out, just got sick of it here.

I understand the MC can't read every post, but there are a good number read by the MC. The policy of "wait for the peasants to complain" is not a good one for the community because most people will keep to themselves or just leave. If you (the MC) see poor behavior, you all (MC) should take it upon yourselves to police it proactively.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Ted is correct. Although I like Kimberly as a person, she did plenty to fuel the fire. I doubt she was shocked by anything that anyone might have sent her. Again, it doesn't justify bad behavior, but every story has two sides.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Laurie no longer participates primarily because she got sick of the poor way female pilots were treated here (mostly by men who themselves don't have much of a pickup line besides "You know what a C-130 is? Well I fly a C-150!"). Keep in mind, she flew helicopters off shore to oil rigs, so she's got thick skin and can dish it right back out, just got sick of it here.

I was actually about to leave POA, but then decided to try something instead to see if it worked. Changed my profile picture to one that was gender-neutral and immediately noticed a huge difference in the way I was treated. Less b.s., more actual dialog. I can actually offer thoughts on topics without having to immediately arm myself for a battle. It's nice not having to be on the defensive all the time.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Ironically, the other forum I like, NudiePhotoSwappersOfAmerica is good but I joined and suddenly my inbox is flooded with people sending me airplane pics. It's disgusting.

 

[Velocity173]

I think some of you are overthinking this a bit. Ron, Geico, Ben, Capt, Etc., have all left as well but we don't do 4 pages on them.

I've looked thru old threads from 2005 and a whole bunch of people are no longer posting. They all leave for their own personal reasons. They're bored, don't get attention that they crave (FB syndrome), don't like people correcting them, don't care for people having a different opinion than them, too much politics / not enough politics. I'm sure some have fallen into financial or medical issues that no longer allow them to fly. Some even lose that fire that they once had for aviation and gone cold. To say that any of it is blamed on this particular community is rediculous. I go to all the other pilot forums and they're all the same. Comparing POA to the Red Board is like comparing Flying mag to AOPA mag. The same material is covered in both.

If you can't come on to POA and talk aviation matters in a sensible debate without your panties getting into a wad, then yes, by all means, try something else.

 

[Ted]

I was actually about to leave POA, but then decided to try something instead to see if it worked. Changed my profile picture to one that was gender-neutral and immediately noticed a huge difference in the way I was treated. Less b.s., more actual dialog. I can actually offer thoughts on topics without having to immediately arm myself for a battle. It's nice not having to be on the defensive all the time.

It's sad that's required. Of course, it was obvious to everyone that Laurie is female (since her user name is @Laurie). However, a number of the misogynistic posts also just got her fed up. Folks (who really are pretty crappy pilots themselves) saying a woman has no place flying a plane, etc.

To be fair, this sort of behavior isn't limited to this forum, or aviation, it occurs anywhere you have boys involved (some of these boys may be geriatrics, they just never matured) in a male-dominated area. That said, this forum is one of the worst I've seen with regards to misogyny. The Twin Cessna forum (where I spend a significant amount of time) is male dominated, but we have had a few women on (including one who was a 414 owner but not a pilot herself) and everyone has treated them respectfully. I don't see the misogynistic posts there that I do here.

Around 15 years ago, I spent most of my time in the Jaguar world, and the Jaguar forum I was on had an IRC chat room where I was a regular. We had several women who came in there. One disguised herself at first (by calling herself Nick - her real name was Nicole), but she was just another one of us and once she realized that we didn't treat her differently for being female she opened up. We gave her advice on how to fix her Jag (she was the mechanic in the family). Another female member hosted her own porn site (starring her) and was very open about it. Again, nobody treated her any differently. She was a good friend, gave me some good advice and we mostly talked about her car and her family.

I think some of you are overthinking this a bit. Ron, Geico, Ben, Capt, Etc., have all left as well but we don't do 4 pages on them.

I agree that people are making too big of a deal of Kimberly leaving. Personally, I don't miss her, but I didn't like her. I also don't like Ron or Captain, and don't miss them.

However, the discussion regarding treatment of women on the forum sparked by this is justified and a problem that needs to be addressed.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I think some of you are overthinking this a bit. Ron, Geico, Ben, Capt, Etc., have all left as well but we don't do 4 pages on them.

I've looked thru old threads from 2005 and a whole bunch of people are no longer posting. They all leave for their own personal reasons. They're bored, don't get attention that they crave (FB syndrome), don't like people correcting them, don't care for people having a different opinion than them, too much politics / not enough politics. I'm sure some have fallen into financial or medical issues that no longer allow them to fly. Some even lose that fire that they once had for aviation and gone cold. To say that any of it is blamed on this particular community is rediculous. I go to all the other pilot forums and they're all the same. Comparing POA to the Red Board is like comparing Flying mag to AOPA mag. The same material is covered in both.

If you can't come on to POA and talk aviation matters in a sensible debate without your panties getting into a wad, then yes, by all means, try something else.

It's a very good point. I've been a member of a couple of sportbike motorcycle boards for years (and I'm even an admin level mod on one of them) but I haven't had a sportbike in several years, and just lost interest in those sites. If (god forbid) I quit flying at some point, I'd probably move on from here as well.

 

[PaulS]

Ironically, the other forum I like, NudiePhotoSwappersOfAmerica is good but I joined and suddenly my inbox is flooded with people sending me airplane pics. It's disgusting.

You do understand that one day, if it hasn't already happened, your children will be reading all you post/have posted. Just saying.

 

[Ted]

You do understand that one day, if it hasn't already happened, your children will be reading all you post/have posted. Just saying.

At least @SixPapaCharlie has taught his kids the proper way to preflight and sump the tanks.

 

[LDJones]

Another female member hosted her own porn site (starring her) and was very open about it. Again, nobody treated her any differently. She was a good friend, gave me some good advice and we mostly talked about her car and her family.

A link must be provided or it didn't happen!

 

[eman1200]

yep, good points, I was an active member on a watch forum but just lost interest plus they NEVER send d-pics so I was like meh, peace out!

 

[steingar]

It's sad that's required. Of course, it was obvious to everyone that Laurie is female (since her user name is @Laurie). However, a number of the misogynistic posts also just got her fed up. Folks (who really are pretty crappy pilots themselves) saying a woman has no place flying a plane, etc.

Of course Laurie has no place flying an airplane. She's a helicopter pilot.

 

[Velocity173]

yep, good points, I was an active member on a watch forum but just lost interest plus they NEVER send d-pics so I was like meh, peace out!

A watch forum? That sounds fascinating.

Actually just ordered a new watch yesterday. My Citizen Black Eagle has run it's course.

 

[Velocity173]

It's sad that's required. Of course, it was obvious to everyone that Laurie is female (since her user name is @Laurie). However, a number of the misogynistic posts also just got her fed up. Folks (who really are pretty crappy pilots themselves) saying a woman has no place flying a plane, etc.

To be fair, this sort of behavior isn't limited to this forum, or aviation, it occurs anywhere you have boys involved (some of these boys may be geriatrics, they just never matured) in a male-dominated area. That said, this forum is one of the worst I've seen with regards to misogyny. The Twin Cessna forum (where I spend a significant amount of time) is male dominated, but we have had a few women on (including one who was a 414 owner but not a pilot herself) and everyone has treated them respectfully. I don't see the misogynistic posts there that I do here.

Around 15 years ago, I spent most of my time in the Jaguar world, and the Jaguar forum I was on had an IRC chat room where I was a regular. We had several women who came in there. One disguised herself at first (by calling herself Nick - her real name was Nicole), but she was just another one of us and once she realized that we didn't treat her differently for being female she opened up. We gave her advice on how to fix her Jag (she was the mechanic in the family). Another female member hosted her own porn site (starring her) and was very open about it. Again, nobody treated her any differently. She was a good friend, gave me some good advice and we mostly talked about her car and her family.



I agree that people are making too big of a deal of Kimberly leaving. Personally, I don't miss her, but I didn't like her. I also don't like Ron or Captain, and don't miss them.

However, the discussion regarding treatment of women on the forum sparked by this is justified and a problem that needs to be addressed.

Laurie must have been before my time. I don't recall any of her posts but if comments were made about a women's ability to fly vs a man, then yeah, that's out of line. At the very least, naive. Having flown with and instructed several females, I can honestly say aviation is gender neutral in the qualities of a good / bad pilot.

 

[hindsight2020]

I just wish people would stop adjudicating low female membership in male dominated endeavors as a problem. Not everything women aren't interested in to the degree men are, is an attempt to proliferate misogyny or a result of the man keeping them down. I have a mother, a sister and a wife; I also have female professional peers in flying. I understand why most women don't participate in flying as pilots. They're simply not interested in the activity as a collective, and on the professional angle they are much more likely to chuck and quit the job for motherhood than men are (ask me how I know). That's my life observation and I'm not going to apologize for that. Said women in my life are not offended by that observation either. Yet the professional umbrage and the white knighting continues on here.

I don't go flip my lid because flight attendants, elementary school teacher, and nurse vocations are devoid of men, but why do I have to wreck my professional and recreational environment kowtowing to the incessant political correctness of having to apologize for skewed demographics of flying? In that regard, women do a poor job of policing themselves. My PPL CFI was a female, and I couldn't care less. It was just happenstance. Not everything is a political statement. People need to stop being offended for a living.

 

[Ted]

A link must be provided or it didn't happen!

She went by "JagBabe" (not going to reveal her real name). I'm pretty sure she got out of the business. She'd be in her 50s now. I forget her exact age when we were friends, but I seem to recall her youngest kid was about my age, oldest one was about 5 or 8 years older.

Of course Laurie has no place flying an airplane. She's a helicopter pilot.

Yeah, I suppose those 4500 hours of fixed wing time in everything from 150s to King Airs don't count. How silly of her to think otherwise.

Laurie must have been before my time. I don't recall any of her posts but if comments were made about a women's ability to fly vs a man, then yeah, that's out of line. At the very least, naive. Having flown with and instructed several females, I can honestly say aviation is gender neutral in the qualities of a good / bad pilot.

Laurie was one of the earlier members of PoA, and also didn't post much. Before that she'd been on the red board, the babes, etc. She basically quit a few years ago.

Yes, plenty of comments about women not being able to fly (she's one of the best pilots I've flown with - you don't end up captain on an S-92 flying SAR by doing a bad job), and then plenty of unwelcome general male comments.

Just a lack of respect or common decency.

 

[Cajun_Flyer]

Not everything is a political statement. People need to stop being offended for a living.

Your post makes no sense to me. Where are you seeing people being offended that there are not a lot of women in aviation? Most women just don't dig it, so what? I'm in the 99s - group of women pilots. Never heard any of them complain about this. There is certainly an interest in trying to promote aviation as a possible career path to women who may not otherwise think of it as an option, but that's about the extent of it. Never heard anyone call it a problem or say that it is offensive. Certainly no one on this thread has done that.

 

[SCCutler]

@SCCutler, I happen to agree with @timwinters that women are typically not treated well here. Laurie no longer participates primarily because she got sick of the poor way female pilots were treated here (mostly by men who themselves don't have much of a pickup line besides "You know what a C-130 is? Well I fly a C-150!"). Keep in mind, she flew helicopters off shore to oil rigs, so she's got thick skin and can dish it right back out, just got sick of it here.

Ted:

I cannot agree more strongly; I would hasten to add, of course, that it is not "POA behavior," but rather, "the world at large, and the Internet in particular behavior." It is uncomfortable to observe that there are a lot of folks like that - cultural inertia is a real *****.

You know, don't you, that my wife is a woman working in an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry (commercial construction), right? I have lost track of the number of times that she, a project manager on multi-million dollar projects, has been treated derisively or dismissively by somebody whose knowledge is a minor fraction of what she has, based solely upon the fact that her plumbing is not outdoor plumbing. It infuriates me - she's a consummate profesisonal.

I understand the MC can't read every post, but there are a good number read by the MC. The policy of "wait for the peasants to complain" is not a good one for the community because most people will keep to themselves or just leave. If you (the MC) see poor behavior, you all (MC) should take it upon yourselves to police it proactively.

As relates to your comment about moderation, you're a little off the mark; while it is true that no Management Council member can unilaterally take action, each and all of us are equally able to flag posts as "bad posts" when behavior is unsavory, and I assure you that each of us have, and will continue, to do so, and there are none of us on the MC whom you could rationally accuse of being misogynysts. Ultimately, though, it comes down to limited resources available in the way of time.

Come to think of it, was that you and/or Laurie volunteering i Just heard?

The most important thing that you, and every other fair-minded POA member, can do, is to make sure that offenses such as these are flagged, so we can attack them at the source.

Edit: I believe you know that I have always respected Laurie's position as an accomplished professional in perhaps the most challenging kind of commercial flying - and I told her so before you met her! ;-)

 

[steingar]

Yeah, I suppose those 4500 hours of fixed wing time in everything from 150s to King Airs don't count. How silly of her to think otherwise.

I should have put in a smiley, as I because I had my tongue very firmly planted in my cheek when I wrote it.

I am also gladded to hear about a pornographic actress (model, performer?) making a sufficient living to afford a luxury like a Jag. I tend think of women in that industry as being exploited, and am gladdened to hear that at least some can achieve some degree of socioeconomic empowerment.

 

[Everskyward]

I think the most important thing to remember is that women present themselves in various ways, and react to things in various ways. Just like men. If you're trying to pigeonhole "what women want" you will be unsuccessful.

I have always taken the gender-neutral route. I dislike being singled out as female, even when it's a positive, so I tend to try to fly under the radar in that respect even when face to face where people can see what gender I am.

 

[Ted]

As relates to your comment about moderation, you're a little off the mark; while it is true that no Management Council member can unilaterally take action, each and all of us are equally able to flag posts as "bad posts" when behavior is unsavory, and I assure you that each of us have, and will continue, to do so, and there are none of us on the MC whom you could rationally accuse of being misogynysts. Ultimately, though, it comes down to limited resources available in the way of time.

My comment wasn't accusing any of the MC of being misogynists at all, rather a lack of a swift iron fist/ban hammer behind the MC that I believe all internet forums should have. The best ones I've seen are all run as dictatorships. This statement applies beyond this topic, and as I'm sure you remember, I've made it before. Most of my best friends (and, indeed, my wife) are people I met on PoA, but I've always felt this community has been too slow to police those who need policing. As you know, I'm friends with most (all?) of the MC members and respect all of you.

Laurie certainly wouldn't volunteer, she got fed up and left. As for me, give me a ban hammer and I'm game.

I am also gladded to hear about a pornographic actress (model, performer?) making a sufficient living to afford a luxury like a Jag. I tend think of women in that industry as being exploited, and am gladdened to hear that at least some can achieve some degree of socioeconomic empowerment.

I have no idea how much she made, of course, but for her it came down to a way to supplement the household income that allowed her to still otherwise be a stay at home mom/wife. Her husband (a cop) was the photographer (it was all just her modeling). While she's the only one I've known personally who fell into that camp, a former boss of mine had previously worked in an industry where it was customary to take potential customers to the strip club as part of getting them to sign the deal. In the process talking to some of the ladies there, he found that more than you'd think were single moms. The job allowed them to put their kids on the bus in the morning and be there to meet them in the afternoon with a significantly better pay than they'd have gotten from the other jobs they'd have been able to get. Her Jag was about 10 years old at the time, but certainly still a luxury (especially factoring in the repair bills) so I suspect she did pretty decently with that.

I've had friends in all walks of life from all backgrounds over the years. In the end, you find out that most of them are fairly normal people, they may just earn their money in different ways.

 

[timwinters]

You do understand that one day, if it hasn't already happened, your children will be reading all you post/have posted. Just saying.

And they're going to say "dad sure had a great sense of humor, how did he ever put up with all those stodgy old codgers on that site?"

 

[PaulS]

And they're going to say "dad sure had a great sense of humor, how did he ever put up with all those stodgy old codgers on that site?"

I'm not old, lol.

 

[exncsurfer]

How effective can banning really be, when someone can just create a new account? I think we're lucky that the forum is as useful as it is, it could be worse. I tried to run one one time and it had to be shut down in short order due to knuckleheads. I don't know how they do it but I think MC does a good job.

 

[Everskyward]

I've always felt this community has been too slow to police those who need policing. As you know, I'm friends with most (all?) of the MC members and respect all of you.

The thing is, Ted, that this site has members like you who would like more moderation, as well as those who would prefer it to be moderated very lightly to not at all. You also don't see who has gotten warning, although you might notice if a post disappears. I'm not sure how many people check back to see that, though. The only thing members might notice is if someone has been banned, either temporarily or permanently since it shows up in their profile. But that doesn't happen until they have gotten a number of warnings unless they do something that is completely over the top. As Spike pointed out, moderation often happens slowly because no one can act unilaterally unless it's something like Chinese spam, and we all have other lives.

 

[Velocity173]

Bring back Chinese spam!

 

[eman1200]

PoA is moderated perfectly. as was already mentioned, u can't blame d-pics on moderating, as they might not even know about it. You's guys are aight in my book and I look forward to buying you a beer if I ever run into one of ya's.

 

[Sac Arrow]

There are already quite a few member photos here already.

 

[mulligan]

PoA is moderated perfectly. as was already mentioned, u can't blame d-pics on moderating, as they might not even know about it. You's guys are aight in my book and I look forward to buying you a beer if I ever run into one of ya's.

Are beer cans a phalic symbol? Beer in a can the shape of a dic?

 

[eman1200]

Are beer cans a phalic symbol? Beer in a can the shape of a dic?

I dunno but I was at a bar once when a bachelorette party rolled in (aawwww yeaahhhh!!) and they had little dick straws that they were drinking their beer out of. wait, they were straws with little dicks on them, not little straws with dicks on them. anyways, u get my point. or do u, since I don't even know what point I'm trying to make...........