Just wow

Yes, Cirrus pilot should definitely get a visit from the FAA. Just a throttle cable problem which the Arrow pilot seems to have under control. Low pass, flying formation without pre-agreement, reckless operation, etc. Particularly egregious if this fellow is a CFI.
 
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PeterNSteinmetz said:
Yes, Cirrus pilot should definitely get a visit from the FAA. Just a throttle cable problem which the Arrow pilot seems to have under control. Low pass, flying formation without pre-agreement, reckless operation, etc. Particularly egregious if this fellow is a CFI.
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... b-b-but what about the YouTube clicks!?!

This could have been his viral channel breakthrough opportunity! :sosp:
 
Rgbeard said:
yeah.. situation is urgent enough in his eyes to get in the air immediately - 'cuz he can help SO MUCH from that position - but still have time to climb the ladder and turn on the tail cam.
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That says it all
 
I would have told that CFI to STFU and get away from my airplane. If that didn't work I would have told the tower that I was turning my radio off so I didn't have to listen to this idiot while I landed engine out. Would have turned the volume back up after I was on the ground. What a pair of idiots (the CFI and the tower).
 
I have to give major credit to the arrow pilot. Honestly, seems like he should be the CFI as he made all the right decisions to walk away safely from a tough spot! Possibly the worst part( I stopped watching after the low pass nonsense) was when he tells the arrow to check the mixture and adjust it. Arrow guy just says “I’m not touching the mixture.” That’s a huge indication that clearly the arrow guy did not even trust the advice he was getting and was much more in control than the helper pilot.

It seems like a classic case of trying to be helpful but really just getting in the way. Can we also consider that this arrow was already in the pattern and the cirrus guy is basically treating it like he’s at cruise altitude trying to trouble shoot? That’s really unforgivable! The arrow landed despite this guy not because of this guy.

Well done to the arrow pilot!
 
Huckster79 said:
It’s amazing we argue about everything on hear... BUT this entire thread is pretty much The same statement from us all just in varying degrees of detail and anger level!
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It’s rare to see such a consensus on POA or any site. To me it is a clear indication that what this guy did was so far out of bounds as to be indefensible by practically anyone in his peer group.
 
SkyDog58 said:
It’s rare to see such a consensus on POA or any site. To me it is a clear indication that what this guy did was so far out of bounds as to be indefensible by practically anyone in his peer group.
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The more I think about it, the more I realize that if I had been flying the Arrow, I would have found the Cirrus pilot's efforts really distracting.
 
Palmpilot said:
The more I think about it, the more I realize that if I had been flying the Arrow, I would have found the Cirrus pilot's efforts really distracting.
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I would be calling for someone’s head if it had been me.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been thinking about what the best response would have been. The best I've been able to come up with is, "I'm not comfortable with formation flight," and "If I need assistance, I'll let you know."
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I would probably not have understood he was in formation as I would have been focused on other things and would never expect someone to do something like that.
 
Salty said:
I would probably not have understood he was in formation as I would have been focused on other things and would never expect someone to do something like that.
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I thought about that too, but on the recording, the controller said that the Cirrus pilot was going to "intercept," and the Cirrus pilot said he was going to "join on the right side." He didn't specify how close he was planning to fly, but I think it would have at least raised a concern in my mind.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've been thinking about what the best response would have been. The best I've been able to come up with is, "I'm not comfortable with formation flight," and "If I need assistance, I'll let you know."
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I might have gone one step further, "I do not consent to the formation flight." That pretty much takes care of 91.111(b).
 
Hmmm, what about the part where the cirrus guy got to the arrow and saw he had flaps and gear down way before he was anywhere near making the runway in an airplane that was not producing enough power to maintain altitude? On the "interceptor's" advice the arrow driver pulled the gear back up, he said he was trying to slow down, but he still had a 180 turn to make plus some distance to cover. Sounds like the Cirrus guy helped to me.
 
PaulS said:
Hmmm, what about the part where the cirrus guy got to the arrow and saw he had flaps and gear down way before he was anywhere near making the runway in an airplane that was not producing enough power to maintain altitude? On the "interceptor's" advice the arrow driver pulled the gear back up, he said he was trying to slow down, but he still had a 180 turn to make plus some distance to cover. Sounds like the Cirrus guy helped to me.
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What about the part where the arrow driver said "I'm trying to slow this thing down, Frankly".

What about the part where the circus driver, realizing on final the arrow is way to fast, then said "Ok, right slip"...

What about the part where the circus driver then says twice prior to landing, "Ok, retract your flaps"?

What about the part where thanks to the circus driver, the arrow floats half way down the runway before it ever touches down.

The runway behind you us useless. The arrow driver was doing just fine before this circus came to town!
 
PaulS said:
Hmmm, what about the part where the cirrus guy got to the arrow and saw he had flaps and gear down way before he was anywhere near making the runway in an airplane that was not producing enough power to maintain altitude? On the "interceptor's" advice the arrow driver pulled the gear back up, he said he was trying to slow down, but he still had a 180 turn to make plus some distance to cover. Sounds like the Cirrus guy helped to me.
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One, that help (if it were help) could have been offered from the ground and did not require an ad hoc formation flight.

Two, regarding flaps and gear, who understands the Arrow and how it's performing better - the PIC in the plane, or some guy flying formation in a Cirrus?

Three, just how helpful was flying the Cirrus all the way down to a low pass over the grass?
 
One of the most distracting things in my own car is when the GPS is giving me audio instructions for a route I don't want - there are times I don't want to go that particular way. I make my turns, the GPS gets busy telling my how to get back on the route it wants me to go. That's a big enough distraction that's easily solved, but that's only a car. I don't know what it would be like to be dealing with something broken, working your own plan, and then have someone who doesn't know what you are dealing with, or how, start telling you to do something other than what you want to do. The "shut the heck-up button" on my GPS is easy to find, but in an airplane that also means you have to turn off the tower.

Backseat drivers, sheesh.
 
Half Fast said:
One, that help (if it were help) could have been offered from the ground and did not require an ad hoc formation flight.

Two, regarding flaps and gear, who understands the Arrow and how it's performing better - the PIC in the plane, or some guy flying formation in a Cirrus?

Three, just how helpful was flying the Cirrus all the way down to a low pass over the grass?
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How would the Cirrus guy have known the flaps and gear were out from the ground? At the crash site maybe?

I'm really not understanding the angst this is generating.
 
EdFred said:
You're just defending him because he was in a Cirrus. :p

Cirrus guy was of zero help. He was in a 1 man circle jerk and wanted to post it on Youtube rather than pornhub.
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It's very hard to argue with reasoning like that, lol.
 
SToL said:
What about the part where the arrow driver said "I'm trying to slow this thing down, Frankly".

What about the part where the circus driver, realizing on final the arrow is way to fast, then said "Ok, right slip"...

What about the part where the circus driver then says twice prior to landing, "Ok, retract your flaps"?

What about the part where thanks to the circus driver, the arrow floats half way down the runway before it ever touches down.

The runway behind you us useless. The arrow driver was doing just fine before this circus came to town!
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Fast and a little high is a good place to be IMO on what was basically an engine out approach. Midfield downwind with gear and flaps out is not a good place to be. Half way down a 4600+ runway is better than a half mile short.

Once again, I think the arrow driver would have had a much tougher time when he finally lost all that excess speed way too early because he dirtied the plane up too soon. One of the first lessons I learned practicing an engine out is no flaps until the runway is made. I don't have a complex endorsement, so I'll defer on the gear.

Personally, I would not do what the Cirrus guy did, but I'm not an instructor and I wasn't there, so who knows? But I do think he helped, a lot.
 
PaulS said:
How would the Cirrus guy have known the flaps and gear were out from the ground? At the crash site maybe?

I'm really not understanding the angst this is generating.
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The "help" from the ground would more appropriately have been something like, "You appear to be slowing too much and sinking too fast, so you may want to clean the plane up. Check your descent rate and if you need to, pull your gear back in and if you have any flaps extended, retract them."

BUT, the more important point is that the guy who is in the seat and actually looking at an altimeter and an airspeed indicator and a VSI is in a far, far better position to decide what's necessary. All of us have done engine-out landings over and over again. For the Cirrus pilot to assume that the pilot in command does not know how to fly his plane and that he can offer superior direction is hubris in the extreme.

I'm surprised the Cirrus didn't buzz the control tower afterward.
 
PaulS said:
Fast and a little high is a good place to be IMO on what was basically an engine out approach. Midfield downwind with gear and flaps out is not a good place to be. Half way down a 4600+ runway is better than a half mile short.

Once again, I think the arrow driver would have had a much tougher time when he finally lost all that excess speed way too early because he dirtied the plane up too soon. One of the first lessons I learned practicing an engine out is no flaps until the runway is made. I don't have a complex endorsement, so I'll defer on the gear.

Personally, I would not do what the Cirrus guy did, but I'm not an instructor and I wasn't there, so who knows? But I do think he helped, a lot.
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He obviously was fast enough and high enough as evidenced by the excessively long float and the theatrics of the circus driver on final. That's only a result of too much airspeed! He's lucky he did have 4600'!

12" of manifold pressure is no where close to the same as an engine out.

Midfield downwind with gear and flaps out might be the perfect place IF you're too high and too fast. There are no rules that you have to fly a mile or more past the end of the runway to turn base. On a 4600' runway at sea level, he could have turned based at the halfway point if he felt the need.

He reported abeam the numbers immediately after the circus driver started talking to him. Only he knows how the plane was responding to his inputs. If he had request assistance, I might have a different opinion of this, but he did not.

This arrow driver did everything right, except for listening to this clown, and he obviously had it under control and did not need, nor request any help.

The circus driver helped this guy in no way. The only thing he did was distract and potentially put the arrow driver into a worse situation than original. He did NOT make the situation any better.
 
PaulS said:
Hmmm, what about the part where the cirrus guy got to the arrow and saw he had flaps and gear down way before he was anywhere near making the runway in an airplane that was not producing enough power to maintain altitude? On the "interceptor's" advice the arrow driver pulled the gear back up, he said he was trying to slow down, but he still had a 180 turn to make plus some distance to cover. Sounds like the Cirrus guy helped to me.
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He was at 3000 feet above the runway.
 
PaulS said:
Hmmm, what about the part where the cirrus guy got to the arrow and saw he had flaps and gear down way before he was anywhere near making the runway in an airplane that was not producing enough power to maintain altitude? On the "interceptor's" advice the arrow driver pulled the gear back up, he said he was trying to slow down, but he still had a 180 turn to make plus some distance to cover. Sounds like the Cirrus guy helped to me.
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Comparing the LiveATC recording and the FlightAware track log, I came to the conclusion that the Arrow was about 2000 feet above field elevation when the Cirrus guy told him to raise the gear. The Arrow touched down about 2 1/2 minutes later.
 
Zeldman said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have told the tower to get this idiot away from me. I have done a little, very little formation flying and I am sure I could use a whole lot more training for formations flying. I would not be comfortable at all with an unknown to me idiot wanting to fly formation with me.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/05/...killed-in-midair-crash-near-philadelphia.html
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Good point about the other pilot being unknown to him. He had no way of knowing that the guy was an instructor, and even if he had, not all instructors are created equal.
 
PaulS said:
Fast and a little high is a good place to be IMO on what was basically an engine out approach. Midfield downwind with gear and flaps out is not a good place to be. Half way down a 4600+ runway is better than a half mile short.

Once again, I think the arrow driver would have had a much tougher time when he finally lost all that excess speed way too early because he dirtied the plane up too soon. One of the first lessons I learned practicing an engine out is no flaps until the runway is made. I don't have a complex endorsement, so I'll defer on the gear.

Personally, I would not do what the Cirrus guy did, but I'm not an instructor and I wasn't there, so who knows? But I do think he helped, a lot.
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When you're midfield on downwind, you have the runway made. Unless you fly gigantic bomber patterns. And this guy was well above pattern altitude.
 
Lindberg said:
When you're midfield on downwind, you have the runway made. Unless you fly gigantic bomber patterns. And this guy was well above pattern altitude.
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I used to fly those! My last instructor when I got my TW rating told me “that was your freebie- u ever get me that far away from the runway on pattern I will pull your power and show you we will end up in the trees short of the runway”. After flying with him it’s tight patterns :)
 
Half Fast said:
The "help" from the ground would more appropriately have been something like, "You appear to be slowing too much and sinking too fast, so you may want to clean the plane up. Check your descent rate and if you need to, pull your gear back in and if you have any flaps extended, retract them."

BUT, the more important point is that the guy who is in the seat and actually looking at an altimeter and an airspeed indicator and a VSI is in a far, far better position to decide what's necessary. All of us have done engine-out landings over and over again. For the Cirrus pilot to assume that the pilot in command does not know how to fly his plane and that he can offer superior direction is hubris in the extreme.

I'm surprised the Cirrus didn't buzz the control tower afterward.
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That "help" you suggest would have been too late or more likely never happened, the controller wouldn't have known to give it and the Cirrus pilot wouldn't have known about it to give it. The important thing is the Arrow pilot realized it was the correct thing to do , raised the gear, and did it. I still can't figure out what the big deal is other than some macho thing, I'd rather be alive.

SToL said:
He obviously was fast enough and high enough as evidenced by the excessively long float and the theatrics of the circus driver on final. That's only a result of too much airspeed! He's lucky he did have 4600'!

12" of manifold pressure is no where close to the same as an engine out.

Midfield downwind with gear and flaps out might be the perfect place IF you're too high and too fast. There are no rules that you have to fly a mile or more past the end of the runway to turn base. On a 4600' runway at sea level, he could have turned based at the halfway point if he felt the need.

He reported abeam the numbers immediately after the circus driver started talking to him. Only he knows how the plane was responding to his inputs. If he had request assistance, I might have a different opinion of this, but he did not.

This arrow driver did everything right, except for listening to this clown, and he obviously had it under control and did not need, nor request any help.

The circus driver helped this guy in no way. The only thing he did was distract and potentially put the arrow driver into a worse situation than original. He did NOT make the situation any better.
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I disagree, the arrow pilot listened to the advice to raise the gear and had a successful landing, nobody knows what might have happened if he left the plane dirty, it could have been a very different outcome. The important thing to note is this guy, the arrow pilot, had no problem exerting his pic responsibility as he showed by refusing to touch the mixture. He didn't refuse to clean up the airplane. So I disagree, I think the Cirrus guy helped tremendously.

Salty said:
He was at 3000 feet above the runway.
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Or 2,000 see next reply.

Palmpilot said:
Comparing the LiveATC recording and the FlightAware track log, I came to the conclusion that the Arrow was about 2000 feet above field elevation when the Cirrus guy told him to raise the gear. The Arrow touched down about 2 1/2 minutes later.
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Lindberg said:
When you're midfield on downwind, you have the runway made. Unless you fly gigantic bomber patterns. And this guy was well above pattern altitude.
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And he cleaned it back up then made a perfect landing. To me, it's easy to fix too fast and/or too high on an engine out landing, it's impossible to fix a too low and too slow.
 
From what I had seen and heard I knew he was high when the Sirrius told him to raise the gear. What flashed through my mind was 'What if it won't come back down when I need it?' My feeling was the Arrow guy was calm, cool and collected and he had his Schit in one sock. Good job for him.
 
PaulS said:
I disagree, the arrow pilot listened to the advice to raise the gear and had a successful landing, nobody knows what might have happened if he left the plane dirty, it could have been a very different outcome. The important thing to note is this guy, the arrow pilot, had no problem exerting his pic responsibility as he showed by refusing to touch the mixture. He didn't refuse to clean up the airplane. So I disagree, I think the Cirrus guy helped tremendously.

And he cleaned it back up then made a perfect landing. To me, it's easy to fix too fast and/or too high on an engine out landing, it's impossible to fix a too low and too slow.
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Not to sound like we're just picking on you, but seriously, now I think you're just being obstinate. For some reason you've got a hard on for the cirrus nut, and not in an argumentative way.

The arrow pilot submitted against his better judgement, under pressure, to the suggestion to put the gear up about 2 min and 10 sec in. He then lowered it again about 3 min and 20 sec in. It takes a few seconds to retract or deploy so he put it down for about a whopping 60 seconds, obviously realized, well, that was stupid, and put it back down.

If he had just left the gear down, as he had originally planed, he wouldn't have come in so fast and floated half way down the runway, even after performing an otherwise normal approach.

The important thing to note, is that this guy, the Circus Pilot, created more problems than he solved. He gave bad advise over an over that was never requested to begin with. He solved ZERO problems and provided ZERO help.

If you think coming in so fast on short final, that you have to do a slip and retract flaps, just so you can land by the midpoint of the runway is a "perfect landing", I honestly hope you seek additional training.

Too low and too slow is never a good place to be, but at no time was this guy in any way close to that. If at anytime he felt he was, a simple turn to the runway would have solved it. My god, he turned base a mile off the end of the runway. He had all kinds of options without any interference for the numb nut.
 
SToL said:
Not to sound like we're just picking on you, but seriously, now I think you're just being obstinate. For some reason you've got a hard on for the cirrus nut, and not in an argumentative way.

The arrow pilot submitted against his better judgement, under pressure, to the suggestion to put the gear up about 2 min and 10 sec in. He then lowered it again about 3 min and 20 sec in. It takes a few seconds to retract or deploy so he put it down for about a whopping 60 seconds, obviously realized, well, that was stupid, and put it back down.

If he had just left the gear down, as he had originally planed, he wouldn't have come in so fast and floated half way down the runway, even after performing an otherwise normal approach.

The important thing to note, is that this guy, the Circus Pilot, created more problems than he solved. He gave bad advise over an over that was never requested to begin with. He solved ZERO problems and provided ZERO help.

If you think coming in so fast on short final, that you have to do a slip and retract flaps, just so you can land by the midpoint of the runway is a "perfect landing", I honestly hope you seek additional training.

Too low and too slow is never a good place to be, but at no time was this guy in any way close to that. If at anytime he felt he was, a simple turn to the runway would have solved it. My god, he turned base a mile off the end of the runway. He had all kinds of options without any interference for the numb nut.
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Someone has a hard on, but not me, take care.
 
PaulS said:
Or 2,000 see next reply.
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2,000 abeam the numbers is still high. I did a power-off 180 on my commercial checkride from 800 feet in an Arrow with the gear already down and approach flaps. Has the great and powerful Cirrus pilot even flown an Arrow before? :rolleyes:
 
PaulS said:
Or 2,000 see next reply.
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At 0:18 the tower says “he’s crossing over at 3000 now”. Field elevation is just shy of 500, so that puts him on top of the runway at 2500 AGL. Almost everything he told him to do was wrong. “Aim for the numbers”, the guy ignores him and keeps flying a square pattern. Then he tells him to slip - after he already burned a lot of energy squaring off against hero’s bad advice. Imagine if the guy had gone to the numbers, when recommended. He’d have had a much harder time of it. Good thing the pilot knew what he was doing and was able to ignore all the bad advice or that guy could have screwed him.
 
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