Just wow

PaulS said:
Ok, now I'm starting to see the source of the angst, lol. Makes more sense now.
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Imagine if one of these guys you think so highly of decided to “help” you like this guy did while you were trying to deal with an emergency.
 
PaulS said:
...I disagree, the arrow pilot listened to the advice to raise the gear and had a successful landing...
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At first he rejected the advice, and he sounded a bit irritated by it. A short time later, he decided to try it, saying that he would "see how it goes."

And he cleaned it back up then made a perfect landing.
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Having to slip AND floating more than half-way down a 4700 foot runway before touching down does not sound even close to perfect to me.

To me, it's easy to fix too fast and/or too high on an engine out landing,...
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It wasn't an engine-out landing.

...it's impossible to fix a too low and too slow
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Part of what he had to deal with was being unable to REDUCE power; he could neither increase nor reduce the power setting. That would have tended to make the final approach too fast, which is consistent with the long float down the runway.

If you feel that you would have welcomed the guy's intervention, that would have been your privilege as PIC. But for the Cirrus guy to start issuing instructions without asking the PIC whether they would be welcomed was unwarranted, in my opinion.
 
Salty said:
...Field elevation is just shy of 500, so that puts him on top of the runway at 2500 AGL...
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The airport diagram says the field elevation is nine feet.
 

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Salty said:
At 0:18 the tower says “he’s crossing over at 3000 now”. Field elevation is just shy of 500, so that puts him on top of the runway at 2500
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Actually, BDR is at 9’ MSL. It’s on Long Island Sound.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, now I'm starting to see the source of the angst, lol. Makes more sense now.
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You don't think it's a problem for someone who's never flown an Arrow before to tell someone how to fly one?

Did this Arrow come equipped with a backup gear extender? The kind you have to manually override? I'm sure having to continuously hold the override switch and listening to a warning horn makes handling the engine problem and judging your glidepath so much easier, as well as having only one hand remaining to fly the airplane and troubleshoot the problem. :rolleyes:

Or did Cirrus pilot not conceive of that factor being a problem due to—again—never having flown one?
 
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Do we know that the Cirrus pilot has not flown an Arrow? I thought he was a CFI.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, now I'm starting to see the source of the angst, lol. Makes more sense now.
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LOL. I should have known better than to slip in a tongue-in-cheek chute joke into this conversation.

But I would have had the same feelings about the situation and the actions of the interloping pilot regardless of what he was flying.
 
Palmpilot said:
Do we know that the Cirrus pilot has not flown an Arrow? I thought he was a CFI.
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I don't know whether he has or not. But when I bought it up, the response was "so that must be the source of the angst".
 
Salty said:
Imagine if one of these guys you think so highly of decided to “help” you like this guy did while you were trying to deal with an emergency.
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Salty, please provide the quote where I said I "think so highly " of this guy, I'll wait. As far as if I were in this situation, I would do what the Arrow pilot did, listen, assess, and act. One time he took the advice, the next time he didn't, for the gear and then for the mixture. What's so tough about that. I hope I am as cool as either of them were.
 
dmspilot said:
You don't think it's a problem for someone who's never flown an Arrow before to tell someone how to fly one?

Did this Arrow come equipped with a backup gear extender?
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No, but apparently it came with a backup safety pilot who flies right behind you to your right and constantly annoys you with useless information. :p
 
Whether he had time in type or not, raise the gear when he was abeam the numbers and 3000 feet above the runway made no sense;
- It was a distraction from setting up the landing
- It was not needed to make the runway
- It added one more thing to have to remember later - i.e. put it back down.
The "help" was worse than doing nothing - and the word Cirrus has nothing to do with it being worse than nothing.
I would not have been anywhere near as restrained as the Arrow pilot was. I would have told him to STFU, get away from my airplane and I would have likely reported the tower controller as well.
 
Palmpilot said:
At first he rejected the advice, and he sounded a bit irritated by it. A short time later, he decided to try it, saying that he would "see how it goes."



Having to slip AND floating more than half-way down a 4700 foot runway before touching down does not sound even close to perfect to me.



It wasn't an engine-out landing.



Part of what he had to deal with was being unable to REDUCE power; he could neither increase nor reduce the power setting. That would have tended to make the final approach too fast, which is consistent with the long float down the runway.

If you feel that you would have welcomed the guy's intervention, that would have been your privilege as PIC. But for the Cirrus guy to start issuing instructions without asking the PIC whether they would be welcomed was unwarranted, in my opinion.
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It was an EMERGENCY, his landing was great, trying to hit the numbers could have killed him, I wouldn't go for the numbers either on a 4,600+ runway, that would be stupid. All the PIC had to do was say "shut up I've got this" to stop the intervention, and he sounded like he was more than capable of doing that. You guys make it sound like you need to have tea and crumpets first. The floating was probably more a function of not being able to pull the little power he had than his setup to land.
 
PaulS said:
It was an EMERGENCY, his landing was great, trying to hit the numbers could have killed him, I wouldn't go for the numbers either on a 4,600+ runway, that would be stupid.
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Have you not done a simulated engine out in training? Instructor pulls the power abeam the numbers at 2,000 feet. Get an aim point and and land on it. It's not rocket surgery. NOTHING the "chase pilot" did was helpful at all. That's what people are torqued about. Honestly, in the world of emergency's it was bit of a nothing burger. The only thing would have been to let the tower know to clear the approach as going around or delaying was not an option.
 
dmspilot said:
You don't think it's a problem for someone who's never flown an Arrow before to tell someone how to fly one?

Did this Arrow come equipped with a backup gear extender? The kind you have to manually override? I'm sure having to continuously hold the override switch and listening to a warning horn makes handling the engine problem and judging your glidepath so much easier, as well as having only one hand remaining to fly the airplane and troubleshoot the problem. :rolleyes:

Or did Cirrus pilot not conceive of that factor being a problem due to—again—never having flown one?
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Ok, I did some research for you, since "Cirrus pilot" is on the copa forum. Cirrus pilot is a 15,000 hour CFII with multi rating, not sure if he is a multi instructor, but it's not relevant here. He has posted that he has 1,000+ hours dual given in Arrows, and knows them well. He also said that when he intercepted and started talking he was at 800 feet, not 2,000 or 2,500 or 3,000 feet as people have surmised here and elsewhere. He says he has the data to back this up. So based on that info, I double down that "Cirrus pilot" helped this guy by having him clean up his airplane, he would have probably landed short.
 
PaulS said:
It was an EMERGENCY, his landing was great, trying to hit the numbers could have killed him, I wouldn't go for the numbers either on a 4,600+ runway, that would be stupid. All the PIC had to do was say "shut up I've got this" to stop the intervention, and he sounded like he was more than capable of doing that. You guys make it sound like you need to have tea and crumpets first. The floating was probably more a function of not being able to pull the little power he had than his setup to land.
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What ever makes you feel good Paul.

I see he's now been down graded from 'Perfect Landing' to great. Pretty sure the guy did say, "I've Got This" and your little buddy still continued to yammer on.

The floating was because of excess speed on final, just like being high and the reason for the slip. The suggestion to reduce flaps was just another f-up on your little buddies part and should have been done AFTER wheels on the ground, not in the air.

I'll have my tea and crumpets now if it please you.
 
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Hang 4 said:
Have you not done a simulated engine out in training? Instructor pulls the power abeam the numbers at 2,000 feet. Get an aim point and and land on it. It's not rocket surgery. NOTHING the "chase pilot" did was helpful at all. That's what people are torqued about. Honestly, in the world of emergency's it was bit of a nothing burger. The only thing would have been to let the tower know to clear the approach as going around or delaying was not an option.
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Yup, 2000 feet was about to cross midfield, abeam the numbers was 1,000 feet and 600 feet closer in. My instructor told me this is a contrived situation, where I can save myself if necessary with the engine. He said in real life that wouldn't be the case, so be sure you have the landing made before you dirty up the airplane. Read my other post about the "cirrus pilot".
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I did some research for you, since "Cirrus pilot" is on the copa forum. Cirrus pilot is a 15,000 hour CFII with multi rating, not sure if he is a multi instructor, but it's not relevant here. He has posted that he has 1,000+ hours dual given in Arrows, and knows them well. He also said that when he intercepted and started talking he was at 800 feet, not 2,000 or 2,500 or 3,000 feet as people have surmised here and elsewhere. He says he has the data to back this up. So based on that info, I double down that "Cirrus pilot" helped this guy by having him clean up his airplane, he would have probably landed short.
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Maybe your buddy was at 800ft, but the CONTROLLER announced the Arrow at 3000Ft.

Even going with the erroneous statement that the arrow was on downwind at 800 ft, doesn't change a single thing! NOTHING! He could have still made the runway in the configuration he was in.

Your buddy is a douche and you ought not rub up so close to him, least some of that doucheieness rub off.
 
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SToL said:
What ever makes you feel good Paul.

I see he's now been down graded from 'Perfect Landing' to great. Pretty sure the guy did say, "I've Got This" and your little buddy still continued to yammer on.

The floating was because of excess speed on final, just like the reason for the slip. The suggestion to reduce flaps was just another f-up on your little buddies part and should have been done AFTER wheels on the ground, not in the air.

I'll have my tea and crumpets now if it please you.
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No tea and crumpets for you. You seem pretty sure of your analysis for a guy who wasn't there and wasn't flying. Must be nice to know that much. Perfect?, great? Yup, he walked away uninjured from an emergency and didn't bend the airplane, qualifies as those for me.
 
PaulS said:
Salty, please provide the quote where I said I "think so highly " of this guy, I'll wait. As far as if I were in this situation, I would do what the Arrow pilot did, listen, assess, and act. One time he took the advice, the next time he didn't, for the gear and then for the mixture. What's so tough about that. I hope I am as cool as either of them were.
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Wow. Point totally missed dude. Ever hear of sarcasm?
 
SToL said:
Maybe your buddy was at 800ft, but the CONTROLER announced the Arrow at 3000Ft.

Even going with the erroneous statement that the arrow was on downwind at 800 ft, doesn't change a single thing! NOTHING! He could have still made the runway in the configuration he was in.

Your buddy is a douche and you ought not rub up so close to him, least some of that doucheieness rub off.
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Buddy? lol, I don't even know him. That's the issue, you guys make crap up and run with it. I will take the guy's statement of how it happened over your guess every time.
 
PaulS said:
Buddy? lol, I don't even know him. That's the issue, you guys make crap up and run with it. I will take the guy's statement of how it happened over your guess every time.
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Are you going to take the guys statement over the controller who announced the arrow at 3000'?

All we're saying is... get a friggen clue dude. This was a cluster from the get go and Cirrus Super Pilot used awful ADM. Or should I say none?
 
PaulS said:
Oh, that's what that was? Ok, I'm pretty well versed in sarcasm, but always willing to learn more from a pro, ;).
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I’ll type slower this time. How would you like the people on this thread you are slamming to slide up next to you during an emergency and give you distracting advice you disagree with while you try to land?

I’m convinced you are only on this thread because someone earlier remarked that it was amazing there was such uniform agreement about this situation. The waters were highly chummed.
 
SToL said:
Are you going to take the guys statement over the controller who announced the arrow at 3000'?

All we're saying is... get a friggen clue dude. This was a cluster from the get go and Cirrus Super Pilot used awful ADM. Or should I say none?
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The hero acted like an instructor intentionally trying to distract for instruction purposes, not like someone trying to help. I almost am inclined to believe the whole thing was a set up. Especially after watching the “solo” formation flight.
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I did some research for you, since "Cirrus pilot" is on the copa forum. Cirrus pilot is a 15,000 hour CFII with multi rating, not sure if he is a multi instructor, but it's not relevant here. He has posted that he has 1,000+ hours dual given in Arrows, and knows them well. He also said that when he intercepted and started talking he was at 800 feet, not 2,000 or 2,500 or 3,000 feet as people have surmised here and elsewhere. He says he has the data to back this up. So based on that info, I double down that "Cirrus pilot" helped this guy by having him clean up his airplane, he would have probably landed short.
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Your first problem is your appeal to authority, and your second problem is the assumption that the PIC was not able to make decisions himself.
 
dmspilot said:
Your first problem is your appeal to authority, and your second problem is the assumption that the PIC was not able to make decisions himself.
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Yeah, I have lots of problems, but not nearly as many as you, a little introspection is a good thing.
 
SToL said:
Are you going to take the guys statement over the controller who announced the arrow at 3000'?

All we're saying is... get a friggen clue dude. This was a cluster from the get go and Cirrus Super Pilot used awful ADM. Or should I say none?
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Where are you getting that 3,000 from, please enlighten me with a link, I'll wait.
 
PaulS said:
Yeah, I have lots of problems, but not nearly as many as you, a little introspection is a good thing.
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Did you determine that by intercepting him as he typed his post?
 
PaulS said:
Where are you getting that 3,000 from, please enlighten me with a link, I'll wait.
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I already told you the tower says it in the video at 0:18. Bad trolling.
 
Salty said:
I’ll type slower this time. How would you like the people on this thread you are slamming to slide up next to you during an emergency and give you distracting advice you disagree with while you try to land?

I’m convinced you are only on this thread because someone earlier remarked that it was amazing there was such uniform agreement about this situation. The waters were highly chummed.
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I always question authority, especially when it's arrived at by "experts" with crappy data by consensus. Can't help it.
 
PaulS said:
I always question authority, especially when it's arrived at by "experts" with crappy data by consensus. Can't help it.
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Considering you didn’t make it to 18 seconds in the video, who exactly has crappy data?
 
PaulS said:
Ok, I did some research for you, since "Cirrus pilot" is on the copa forum. Cirrus pilot is a 15,000 hour CFII with multi rating, not sure if he is a multi instructor, but it's not relevant here. He has posted that he has 1,000+ hours dual given in Arrows, and knows them well. He also said that when he intercepted and started talking he was at 800 feet, not 2,000 or 2,500 or 3,000 feet as people have surmised here and elsewhere. He says he has the data to back this up. So based on that info, I double down that "Cirrus pilot" helped this guy by having him clean up his airplane, he would have probably landed short.
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On a totally unrelated subject...

15000 hours? Really? I call total bs on this one. Not towards you, but his claim. I saw him talking on the news and he's a pretty young guy. If he's got 15000 hours he must own stock in a pencil company. He'd have to average 1000 hours a year for 15 years. What do you think?
 
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SToL said:
On a totally unrelated subject...

15000 hours? Really? I call total bs on this one. Not towards you, but his claim. I saw him talking on the news and he's a pretty young guy. If he's got 15000 hours he must own stock in a pencil company. He'd have to average 1000 hours a year over the last 15 years. What do you think?
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It says he start flying in 1993, so that is 26 years ago, so about 580 hours a year, makes sense to me. My instructor is about the same age, he has over 14,000 hours.
 
Salty said:
Considering you didn’t make it to 18 seconds in the video, who exactly has crappy data?
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Come on Salty, you need to know how to use the data too. At 18 seconds the cirrus is not off the ground and the Arrow is at least 5 miles from the field in a constant descent.
 
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