Is there any profit in refurbishing aircraft?

I still call troll. But I'm out :) I'm going to fly to Naples and see my family for dinner.
 
tawood said:
Not necessary... most would find it scary but I can even get those too. Since this gives away nothing, How's Your girlfriend doing after the loss of her dog? Losing furry family can be tough.
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Between her having cancer and losing our little dog of 17 years, yes the last few months have been a little tough for both of us. As you are probably well aware I have to stay close to the house these days, which has given me plenty of time to BS with you guys, study for my written, and get my other business launched. No time to play... but all that will eventually come once again. :yesnod:

Just an FYI... rather than being some creepy bastard and stalking me, why don't you just ask me straight up on what's going on in my life a the present moment? It would be a whole lot easier I would think. :dunno:
 
azblackbird said:
Between her having cancer and losing our little dog of 17 years, yes the last few months have been a little tough for both of us. As you are probably well aware I have to stay close to the house these days, which has given me plenty of time to BS with you guys, study for my written, and get my other business launched. No time to play... but all that will eventually come once again. :yesnod:

Just an FYI... rather than being some creepy bastard and stalking me, why don't you just ask me straight up on what's going on in my life a the present moment? It would be a whole lot easier I would think. :dunno:
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Simple...you haven't exactly been someone that I would expect an honest answer from.
 
azblackbird said:
Between her having cancer and losing our little dog of 17 years, yes the last few months have been a little tough for both of us. As you are probably well aware I have to stay close to the house these days, which has given me plenty of time to BS with you guys, study for my written, and get my other business launched. No time to play... but all that will eventually come once again. :yesnod:

Just an FYI... rather than being some creepy bastard and stalking me, why don't you just ask me straight up on what's going on in my life a the present moment? It would be a whole lot easier I would think. :dunno:
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We prefer stalking by the way.
 
OkieAviator said:
Have you ever been to prison?
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:rofl: Been in jail a couple times. Never prison! I've given up on hellraising... the last traffic ticket I got was in 1991

EminiTrader said:
Have you ever seen a grown man naked?
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:rofl: the most memorable naked man I ever saw was Emerson Fittipaldi. Walked in on him getting out of the shower one morning and I swear to Gd his schlong hung down to his knees. :yikes:

EminiTrader said:
We prefer stalking by the way.
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Who's WE? Are you a POA Mensa member or something? :rofl:
 
azblackbird said:
:rofl: Been in jail a couple times. Never prison! I've given up on hellraising... the last traffic ticket I got was in 1991


:rofl: the most memorable naked man I ever saw was Emerson Fittipaldi. Walked in on him getting out of the shower one morning and I swear to Gd his schlong hung down to his knees. :yikes:



Who's WE? Are you a POA Mensa member or something? :rofl:
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Indeed i am.

Jail>? What kind of charges??
 
EminiTrader said:
Indeed i am.

Jail>? What kind of charges??
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Driving w/o a license from the numerous unpaid speeding tickets I accumulated as a motorcycle courier. :rofl:

The other time I was driving a stolen rental car that never got cleared on the hot sheets. Spent a couple hours in the hoosegow while they cleared everything up with the rental agency.
 
Is there a market? Yes.

Roadblocks would be what value would the market put on the product. This affects financing and insurance. As the legacy fleet ages, there will be a value for someone to identify good, solid airframes and/or repair or refurbish them.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Is there a market? Yes.
Roadblocks would be what value would the market put on the product. This affects financing and insurance. As the legacy fleet ages, there will be a value for someone to identify good, solid airframes and/or repair or refurbish them.
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That's exactly what I'm thinking for a future business venture. The GA fleet is only going to get older and more dilapidated, and the prices of new planes are only going to go higher. I'd like to fill that void. :yesnod:
 
azblackbird said:
Ideally a T210 Cessna for business use, and if the budget allows a CarbonCub FX for recreational purposes. That's the plan anyways. ;)
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You probably didn't know the type certificate on a Carbon cub says when it needs repair, it must go back to the factory.
Plus you won't find one cheap enough to make any profit.

Plenty nice 210 on the market to compete with.
 
azblackbird said:
That's exactly what I'm thinking for a future business venture. The GA fleet is only going to get older and more dilapidated...
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So are the pilots. What are your plans for them?
 
azblackbird said:
Not a kit... builder assist. Minimal panel VFR only plane just to play around here in the AZ backcountry with. Engine is the TCM X-340.
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Builder assist programs, best be care full don't be considered a professional.
 
can you compete?
http://cubcrafters.com/carboncub/fx

No technical experience is necessary. Our factory personnel will guide you through each process to ensure success and an enjoyable build. The Carbon Cub FX Builder Assist allows amateur builders to create their dream under the supervision of our factory technicians, and guarantees delivery of a world-class aircraft.
 
azblackbird said:
That's exactly what I'm thinking for a future business venture. The GA fleet is only going to get older and more dilapidated, and the prices of new planes are only going to go higher. I'd like to fill that void. :yesnod:
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you'll loose money more efficiently not owning the bidness..... but just paying for the work you want done.....
 
You cannot refurbish anything other than P-51 Mustangs and other specialty aircraft and make money. Buyers simply won't pay the freight to do it..

azblackbird said:
Bingo... you nailed right on the money Tom! :thumbsup:

Now bring that $20k paint job in-house and do it for $3k. Same goes for that $30k engine overhaul. Bring it in-house and do it for $10k in actual parts and machining. Same goes for the $20k upholstery job. Bring it in-house for $5k. Same goes for the avionics. Bring that $30k stack in-house and do it for $10k or less. Do you think there might be some money to be made if everything is all brought in-house?
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So, take your hypothetical $3K paint job. That's materials only. Maybe... And a paint job takes 100 hours of labor to disassemble, strip, prep, repair, prime, paint, tape-off, paint some more, tape some more, and re-assemble. Beyond that, you need an appropriate space to do the work in, and appropriate equipment. So, you're gonna pay a skilled painter for 50 hours at $25/hr and a less skilled person $15/hr for 50 hours, and you're gonna have to pay a mechanic $250 to sign it off at the end. Oh, and you need a $100k hangar with great lighting and a paint booth to do the work. Now, you're back to near-retail pricing.

Same with the engine. I checked on the cost for a DYI overhaul an O-540 recently. $6+k for the cylinders, $2k in machine work and yellow tags (assuming everything passes), $2k in miscellaneous parts. $3k in refurbishing accessories. A thousand bucks in hoses, new plugs, and a few other goodies I can't think of off-hand. I ended up at $23k out of pocket assuming all of the major stuff could be tested, overhauled, and re-used. Add in 50 hours of a mechanic's time at a $100/r rate (again, he has overhead in the form of tools, space, and a license), and you're adding another $5k to the mix, so your overhaul is $28k and you're not even doing a test cell run. Beyond that, you're facing all of the risk (crank can't be re-used, engine has a problem after 3 hours and needs major work, etc.), so you're vulnerable at a $28k rebuild. Which is why reputable shops charge $8-10k more than it costs them to rebuild an engine.

As Wayne Bower used to point out. The market is efficient. If there was a market for refurbished aircraft at the prices you'd have to charge to make a profit, someone would be out buying up all of those hangar and ramp queens, then refurbishing them. The market simply doesn't exist at the prices you'd have to charge.
 
Isn't it ironic how a guy floating the big refurb business plan, the guy who makes statements that guys here have never used a wrench or a spray gun, is lusting over a factory assist Cub when there are so many opportunities to build one from the ground up? Put your money where your mouth is and showcase those superior airplane builder skills. You can do it better than CubCrafters, right? Why pay them?
 
Tom-D said:
http://cubcrafters.com/c/inventory/

You can buy better than you can build, and fly now.
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None of those are FX models. I want to build with assistance and do my own MX and condition inspections.

Tom-D said:
have you seen the "King Cub?
http://www.hoaircraft.com/PA-18-IO-390-STC.html
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Nice bird but it's not an E-AB.

Stewartb said:
Put your money where your mouth is and showcase those superior airplane builder skills.
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I'd love to, but I don't think I have the right tools. :eek2:

toolbench.jpg
 
kyleb said:
The market simply doesn't exist at the prices you'd have to charge.
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Well then... I guess I'd just have to keep raising my prices until the market would support the model. I'm guessing the concept of "in-house" went way over your head. Your $28k engine rebuild is mid retail. I don't do retail, never have never will. Just watch and see what the future beholds for the GA market. You just might be in for a surprise. ;)
 
owning and flying your own aircraft in this country is not reality for middle class anymore ,just like buying good medical insurance .what a shame. look at the prices of the basics. most have gone up 3x in 20 years while most folks make the same or just a small amount more. this blackbird guy is ... ,o well you fill in the blank.
 
azblackbird said:
We've all seen the derelict planes ranging from old Piper Tri-Pacers on up to Lear 25's on the various ramps around the country.

How come nobody is taking these planes (like all the car guys do with the old cars) and refurbishing them to modern (or even classical) day standards? Is there just no profit in doing it? :dunno:
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I know of two people who are doing this. You can't start with derelicts. The key is buying planes that don't need anything structural, buy them way below market and get the refurb work done at a price below retail. One guy used to rebuild cherokee sixes and re-sold them to charter operators. The other one spiffed up simple trainers, mostly Warriors. If you buy paintjobs 10 at a time you get a price below retail. You can find used avionics below retail here and there. If you keep your part-time avionics guy busy with used equipment installs, you won't pay retail either.

If you pay retail for the plane, retail for the paint-job and install new avionics, you won't make money on this.
 
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