Is there any profit in refurbishing aircraft?

azblackbird said:
Yes, machine shop in-house fabricating any parts needed. Pretty easy to do these days with the 3-axis - 5-axis CNCs. Fricking laser measurement tools these days can get you down to .0001" That's better than the original OEM parts tolerances in many cases.
Click to expand...
Once you get behind the firewall, there aren't that many machined parts - lots of sheet metal (which is labor intensive) and craplastic parts.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Once you get behind the firewall, there aren't that many machined parts - lots of sheet metal (which is labor intensive) and craplastic parts.
Click to expand...
You'd be surprised. It's those little (seat rail mechanisms, rigging system, etc.) parts that add up and can be very expensive if you were to source them new.
 
You never answered the earlier question. How many planes have you rebuilt?
 
This thread is interesting. I suspect that this market is a lot like the classic/collectable car market. Really similar in a lot of ways, with a much tighter supply of both source material (planes/cars) and suppliers.

There are plenty of people making money in the classic car/collectable/custom market, but for every one that is making money there are about 50 that fail. I've personally known quite a few (of both). The key seems to be finding the niche you want to specialize in, AND that has a market.

My father in-law spent a few years refurbishing various classic/muscle cars. Did some really nice ones, but found that selling them can be a crap shoot. Now he specializes in one thing - corvettes. There is a steady supply, good parts availability, and a very steady market- both of entry level buyers, upgrades, and collectors. He makes the most, and turns around the best on the mid-level "refurbs".

I think this refurb-a-plane venture could be similar - where's the market? That is THE question. So, if you can pick up C172's (or similar) all day long that are sunburnt but solid in AZ for $10K, and clean and refurb them and sell them for $75K-100K (depending on avionics mostly) and make a profit I think there would be a decent market. But I think the key would be to specialize in a particular market segment, and probably a small selection of airframes. And, what is in the standard "refurb" package? HOW refurbed? I mean you can go all zero time new - but you will never make money except on some high end/in demand airframes maybe. It's all about where you position your product I think...

I'm mostly blowing sand out my butt, but I do think there are comparisons to be made...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Once you get behind the firewall, there aren't that many machined parts - lots of sheet metal (which is labor intensive) and craplastic parts.
Click to expand...
Try buying a full set of control cables for a 172 /182 from Yingling see what they cost.
Ask any A&P for an estimate to build a new wire harness for a 172 to eliminate the fuses and replace them with C/Bs and add strobes, and LED lighting. that alone will cripple your budget.
The Conversion from a generator to alternator is $1500.
When you do a 67 or prior 172 you'd do the 180 horse up grade. add at least $45k for a new engine and STC paper work.
 
jbrinker said:
This thread is interesting. I suspect that this market is a lot like the classic/collectable car market. Really similar in a lot of ways, with a much tighter supply of both source material (planes/cars) and suppliers. There are plenty of people making money in the classic car/collectable/custom market, but for every one that is making money there are about 50 that fail. I've personally known quite a few (of both). The key seems to be finding the niche you want to specialize in, AND that has a market.
Click to expand...
Your classic/collectable car assimilation is very similar, except the business would be restoring "classic" airplanes. Machined parts, engine overhauls, paint, interior, and avionics would all be done in-house. The niche would be 4-place (fixed/retract) aircraft that are a step-up from the trainers, as that is what I would think most new pilots would make a natural transition to. The market would be those that want new aircraft but can't afford them, and for those that have the money to purchase an older no-nonsense well equipped (modernized) plane that isn't going to nickel/dime them to death over the years. That's a niche that I see that really isn't being filled except for a few.
 
azblackbird said:
Your classic/collectable car assimilation is very similar, except the business would be restoring "classic" airplanes. Machined parts, engine overhauls, paint, interior, and avionics would all be done in-house.
Click to expand...
Who wants to buy a field overhaul from an unknown shop?
 
If you were going to restore any aircraft for me, I'd want total control of make and model, colors, which mods. and I'd set a limit on how much it will cost.
 
Tom-D said:
Try buying a full set of control cables for a 172 /182 from Yingling see what they cost.
Ask any A&P for an estimate to build a new wire harness for a 172 to eliminate the fuses and replace them with C/Bs and add strobes, and LED lighting. that alone will cripple your budget.
The Conversion from a generator to alternator is $1500. When you do a 67 or prior 172 you'd do the 180 horse up grade. add at least $45k for a new engine and STC paper work.
Click to expand...
Yep... it's all that little s**h that adds up quick unless you can keep it all in-house. Like I said... I can tell who here has ever held a wrench in their hands, or would know the difference between a clevis or heim joint, or would know how to wire and test a denso connector. :rofl:
 
azblackbird said:
Yep... it's all that little s**h that adds up quick unless you can keep it all in-house. Like I said... I can tell who here has ever held a wrench in their hands, or would know the difference between a clevis or heim joint, or would know how to wire and test a denso connector. :rofl:
Click to expand...
Do you want the liability of making control cables, rebuilding engines? or even the carb and mags want to rebuild them in house?
even the major shops will insist they be new.
 
Tom-D said:
Who wants to buy a field overhaul from an unknown shop?
Click to expand...
Who said anything about a field overhaul? We're talking Victor/Ram quality here, not some fly-by-night operation. I wouldn't settle for anything less! :yesnod:

Tom-D said:
If you were going to restore any aircraft for me, I'd want total control of make and model, colors, which mods. and I'd set a limit on how much it will cost.
Click to expand...
Custom builds might be a consideration. For the most part the business plan would be to refurbish aircraft with the desired amenities (within reason) that are currently the most popular at the time and sell them that way. No puke green interiors/paint jobs. All neutral colors and tasteful graphics. ;)

Tom-D said:
Do you want the liability of making control cables, rebuilding engines? or even the carb and mags want to rebuild them in house?
even the major shops will insist they be new.
Click to expand...
Uhhhh that's all part of the business... right? What isn't in spec and the time/cost issue to re-build/re-machine would naturally be replaced with new.
 
Last edited:
When you use another shops engine, that isn't what I'd call in house. Remember any A&P can overhaul engines but when they work for you, you catch the liability for their work.
 
Tom....what happened to the last IA signing it off being culpable?
 
Last edited:
I wish someone would refurb something with a bit more utility than a 172 - perhaps a Tiger or a Cherokee 180. Or even better, a retract that won't break the bank, like an Arrow or older Mooney.

I'd pay a healthy premium for something like that, but as most here seem to indicate - I'm not sure there's enough of a market for it to be worth someone's time on the other end.
 
kayoh190 said:
I wish someone would refurb something with a bit more utility than a 172 - perhaps a Tiger or a Cherokee 180. Or even better, a retract that won't break the bank, like an Arrow or older Mooney.

I'd pay a healthy premium for something like that, but as most here seem to indicate - I'm not sure there's enough of a market for it to be worth someone's time on the other end.
Click to expand...
You get the idea. :thumbsup:

Most here have never held a wrench, spray gun, or a pair of dikes in their lives, so you can pretty much disregard what they have to say. :rofl:
 
Last edited:
azblackbird said:
You get the idea. :thumbsup:

Most here have never held a wrench, spray gun, or a pair of dikes in their lives, so you can pretty much disregard what they have to say. :rofl:
Click to expand...
Source?????? You are awfully presumptuous
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
If this was doable, everyone would be in the game.
They aren't - that speaks volumes.
(And people love to rebuild airplanes.)
If there really was $ in it, supply would fill that demand rapidly.

No need to dig deep on this one; the marketplace has spoken.
Click to expand...

This is your answer.
 
azblackbird said:
Notice I said "MOST", and not "EVERYBODY"... if you're an exception, then you have my congrats. :yesnod:
Click to expand...

So with your experience and knowledge you've deduced that "most" of us around here have never done what you state. Again, where's your source of this information? You've been trolling here for 3 weeks running around posting on every thread like you own the place. bottom line is this - you simply don't know what you don't know. I appreciate asking questions but then to sit here and make statements like this about "most" people whom you don't even know is just flat out rude. IMO....
 
Last edited:
CC268 said:
This is your answer.
Click to expand...
That's funny as hell... when I started my moving company, many of the major movers didn't want to move small apartments, if they did it was prohibitively expensive for the average apartment dweller. What did I do, I saw a niche that wasn't being filled and filled it. I leased a bunch of Wells Cargo trailers, contracted out guys with P/U's to pull them, and went into the apartment moving business.

Same goes for my courier company. Most "hot-shot" delivery services here in the Valley would often take all day to deliver a blueprint to a job site, or a legal document to the courthouse. What did I do, I saw a niche that needed to be filled and got a bunch of my motorcycling buddies together and started delivering important documents to my clients within 15-30 minutes or an hour at the most.

Successful businesses are all about filling niches... I'm seeing a niche in the airplane market that looks like it could be filled. :dunno:
 
azblackbird said:
That's funny as hell... when I started my moving company, many of the major movers didn't want to move small apartments, if they did it was prohibitively expensive for the average apartment dweller. What did I do, I saw a niche that wasn't being filled and filled it. I leased a bunch of Wells Cargo trailers, contracted out guys with P/U's to pull them, and went into the apartment moving business.

Same goes for my courier company. Most "hot-shot" delivery services here in the Valley would often take all day to deliver a blueprint to a job site, or a legal document to the courthouse. What did I do, I saw a niche that needed to be filled and got a bunch of my motorcycling buddies together and started delivering important documents to my clients within 15-30 minutes or an hour at the most.

Successful businesses are all about filling niches... I'm seeing a niche in the airplane market that looks like it could be filled. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Give it a shot then!
 
OkieAviator said:
I think there's money to be made in 86-92 Ford Taurus refurbishments. It's a niche market I'm going to tab into that's not currently being catered to.
Click to expand...
If you narrowed it down to the SHO, you might have a shot. A small shot, but a shot nonetheless. Former owner of a '91 SHO+ 5spd that would hold it's own against the stock 5.0 'Stangs . . . :)
 
azblackbird said:
I just might do that... got a lot of irons in the fire right now, but in a few years from now when I'm ready to take on the challenge of starting another business... who knows. :dunno:
Click to expand...

So what plane you gonna buy for yourself when you get your PPL?
 
azblackbird said:
I just might do that... got a lot of irons in the fire right now, but in a few years from now when I'm ready to take on the challenge of starting another business... who knows.
dunno.gif
Click to expand...

Azblackbird, when you first came on this site, with your "I'm flying 1000 mile solo training" posts, etc, I thought to myself, 'If this guy is for real, I'm gonna want to know his name when he kills himself'. You are constantly asking questions, only to get the answers and then tell everyone they're wrong, because you already have the real answers (this thread is a perfect example, not that any other thread you've started is different).

For me, although I've had a pilot's license for almost 25 years, I know I AM NOT any sort of flying, aviation, or pilot expert. When I come on here, and I ask questions, I listen to the answers...because I know that some (probably most) on here definitely know more about flying than I do.

Now, what am I an expert in? Investigations. I do it for a living, and I have been told by others that I'm quite good at it.

What does this have to do with your posts, you might ask? Well, give me an iPad and an internet connection to Google, and I can really "climb up a person's ass" so to speak. Sooo, I just took a quick look at you, and although all the info I find is public, you can rest assured that I would never post the information I find on someone (like you), because hey, if I found it, so can someone else...but, I really have to say, you give new meaning to the song, "I'm so much cooler online."

So I guess from what I found, I now know that I don't have to know your name for when you kill yourself, because it just is not going to ever go that far.
 
Maybe when he gets his PPL he can have a little more credibility :dunno:

Not trying to be an ass...but I agree some of the stuff that is said is just bizarre.
 
Google is a wonderful thing I think I found what you found tawood. I honestly think AZZBlackBird is a troll. Has to be...
 
tawood said:
Now, what am I an expert in? Investigations. I do it for a living, and I have been told by others that I'm quite good at it..
Click to expand...
Cool! :thumbsup:

Would you like my social and Duns numbers so you can really do a thorough investigation? :rofl:
 
azblackbird said:
Cool! :thumbsup:

Would you like my social and Duns numbers so you can really do a thorough investigation? :rofl:
Click to expand...
Not necessary... most would find it scary but I can even get those too. Since this gives away nothing, How's Your girlfriend doing after the loss of her dog? Losing furry family can be tough.
 
tawood said:
Not necessary... most would find it scary but I can even get those too. Since this gives away nothing, How's Your girlfriend doing after the loss of her dog? Losing furry family can be tough.
Click to expand...

China has had all my information for years....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top