Is there any profit in refurbishing aircraft?

azblackbird said:
Most definitely, but I would think a guy could turn 20 planes a year and find buyers for them. Are you going to get super rich doing it? Probably not, but it would be giving guys a decent living and returning some good aircraft back into the GA population.
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How many airplanes have you rebuilt?
 
The thing is most of these fully refurbished planes are not cheap. Yes they are less than new, but often are 200k plus for a 20 year old plus airframe. In many people's eye that is a lot to pay for a used item.

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Stewartb said:
How many airplanes have you rebuilt?
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You might have missed the posts where the premise of the entire business model would be in assembling a team that would consist of an experienced A&P/AI, avionics guru, professional painter, professional upholsterer, and an experienced aircraft buyer/marketing person. Everything would be done in-house with cross shared duties and would be based on an equity shared workload. All major equipment and the facility required to do the complete refurbishing would be leased. It could be a boot strapped operation with everybody pitching in their own money and sharing in any profits, or investors could be brought in and it could be structured as a regular start-up business with payrolls and all that happy BS.

Just throwing it all out there and getting different opinions. :cool:
 
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drotto said:
The thing is most of these fully refurbished planes are not cheap. Yes they are less than new, but often are 200k plus for a 20 year old plus airframe. In many people's eye that is a lot to pay for a used item.
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As TomD stated... if you plan on keeping the airplane for awhile, you can pay now, or pay later for all the upgrades you'd be adding over the years. I believe there's a market for those that can't afford a new airplane, but yet don't want a piece of junk that they're constantly throwing money at. It might be a small market, but I think it's there for clean, affordable, well appointed, and trouble free older aircraft that has the capability to last you for many years.
 
azblackbird said:
Saaaawheeet! :thumbsup:
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Remember Yingling lives right across the street from the factory, has access to the Cessna inventory for parts. and has an agreement with Cessna for parts discount. and how expensive are their 172s?
 
Tom-D said:
Remember Yingling lives right across the street from the factory, has access to the Cessna inventory for parts. and has an agreement with Cessna for parts discount. and how expensive are their 172s?
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And yet they sell them. There's always a buyer for every plane somewhere, somehow, and at someplace in time. ;)
 
Tom-D said:
Remember Yingling lives right across the street from the factory, has access to the Cessna inventory for parts. and has an agreement with Cessna for parts discount. and how expensive are their 172s?
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They are about $160K to $225K....

Here

 
azblackbird said:
You might have missed the posts where the premise of the entire business model would be in assembling a team that would consist of an experienced A&P/AI, avionics guru, professional painter, professional upholsterer, and an experienced aircraft buyer/marketing person. Everything would be done in-house with cross shared duties and would be based on an equity shared workload. All major equipment and the facility required to do the complete refurbishing would be leased. It could be a boot strapped operation with everybody pitching in their own money and sharing in any profits, or investors could be brought in and it could be structured as a regular start-up business with payrolls and all that happy BS.

Just throwing it all out there and getting different opinions. :cool:
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You ain't gonna turn 20 airplanes in a year with that crew. You're going to need a team of at least a few of each of those people, especially A&Ps to get actual mechanical work and reassembly done. Figure 10 people, each getting paid an average of a measly $50G/year. That's 1/2 a million. That's 5 airplanes sold at $100k/per just to make payroll, and we haven't even bought them yet. Factor in acquisition costs, shop costs, insurance, utilities, and inventory to repair/replace worn out things on these old aircraft, and now you've got to sell 10 justcto break even. One per month would be a tight timetable for a tiny crew like that, and you need to sell nearly 2/month to make money on this. Unlikely. If it was a good profitable plan it would already be in operation.
 
azblackbird said:
Already checked them out. Nice operation. :yesnod:
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According to the website they just sold their 310 plane. They do a very nice job. My dad purchased his Saratoga through them, basically a new plane. He has had it for about 3 years now. When he got it it had a zero time engine, new paint, new interior, complete glass primary panel, and 200 hrs on the prop. Mechanics who have done the subsequent annuals have commented that is a very clean plane, and the work was well done.
 
Last February , I purchased a 1965 182J "Hangar Queen" that hadn't been off the ground in about 11 years. I did (with a lot of help) a complete restoration. I replaced essentially everything. New engine, paint, windows, bladders, prop, hoses, interior, then added a glass panel, autopilot, and everything in between. My budget for the plane ended up being a little more than double what I first anticipated (a good portion of this was the glass panel).
I did this because I couldn't find anything with less than 1500hrs that was comparable! I've been hesitant to post about the refirb, because I knew many people here would think I was crazy putting that amount of money in a 52 year old airframe, but I now have what is to me a "new airplane" for half the money.
 
drotto said:
According to the website they just sold their 310 plane. They do a very nice job. My dad purchased his Saratoga through them, basically a new plane. He has had it for about 3 years now. When he got it it had a zero time engine, new paint, new interior, complete glass primary panel, and 200 hrs on the prop. Mechanics who have done the subsequent annuals have commented that is a very clean plane, and the work was well done.
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And that plane will probably last your dad for the rest of his life with very little maintenance or squawks. :thumbsup:
 
Hunter said:
I've been hesitant to post about the refirb, because I knew many people here would think I was crazy putting that amount of money in a 52 year old airframe, but I now have what is to me a "new airplane" for half the money.
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Some here just don't get it. There are many people exactly like yourself who clamor for a brand new airplane, but just can't afford it. They can buy a refurb (or do it themselves) for 1/2 or 1/3 the price and it will last them the rest of their lives.
 
azblackbird said:
It already is... pristineairplanes.com... Yingling Aviation... Nextant Aerospace ... Rare Aircraft ... Aviat Aircraft ... just to name a few.

Here's a little reading on the subject matter should you ever desire to expand your horizons.

Looks like there may be some room in the refurb market after all for a guy to squeeze into... that is if they should so be inclined. :ihih:
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There's always a market for everything. "A fool and his money are soon parted" as the old saying goes. Your question was really about why there isn't a bigger market for refurbishing old airplanes, not if anyone is doing it at all, anywhere, ever. Many here have agreed that it would be cool if there was a bigger market with lower prices for awesome airplanes. I wish airplanes were less expensive. I wish maintaining them was less expensive. It makes sense in conversation that refurbing airplanes would be a hot market, but selling used airplanes at a premium price point is not as hot of a market as we would like it be. I'm sure you understand the difference between practicality, theory, and reality.
 
Lachlan said:
I'm sure you understand the difference between practicality, theory, and reality.
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Thus the reason for soliciting for opinions or comments. Just interesting to see what a few here had to say. AZ in my opinion, with all the numerous sun damaged (yet corrosion free) tie-down queens we have here, would seem ripe for such an enterprise. Who the hell knows? :dunno:
 
Yes to the question in the title. There is profit for the parts manufacturers and distributors and mechanics in refurbishing. Same as gold mining or bit coin mining. Lots of people have made excellent money selling or leasing equipment to miners.
 
azblackbird said:
Some here just don't get it. There are many people exactly like yourself who clamor for a brand new airplane, but just can't afford it. They can buy a refurb (or do it themselves) for 1/2 or 1/3 the price and it will last them the rest of their lives.
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For a guy who doesn't even know how to fly yet you sure are an expert at general aviation. Amazing what 400 posts in 2 weeks will do for a guy.
 
Average shops are not sheet metal experts, electrical experts, avionics system experts, paint experts, engine experts, or certification experts all under one roof. Yes they do a little of everything but they are not capable of doing these kids of refurbs with any sort of efficiency.
 
azblackbird said:
It already is... pristineairplanes.com... Yingling Aviation... Nextant Aerospace ... Rare Aircraft ... Aviat Aircraft ... just to name a few.

Here's a little reading on the subject matter should you ever desire to expand your horizons.

Looks like there may be some room in the refurb market after all for a guy to squeeze into... that is if they should so be inclined. :ihih:
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Instead of asking if there is a market, the question you need to answer is how big is the market? Can you segment the market? Who are you going to target in the market? How is your product going to be positioned in that market? Is the market at or near saturation? What is your competitive advantage? How are you/your team going to do it better? Faster? Cheaper?
 
Good luck with this. Sorry but I can't see this as a viable model. I am sure a few guys do it but 200K or even 100K for a 20 year old 172 is silly.

In a market where an engine rebuild is more than the value of a plane it is tough to make money.
 
Most guys entering into a business venture have good knowledge of the work they propose to provide. I guess that isn't important here. Maybe I should start a thread about opening a brain surgery clinic. I don't have a friggin clue about how to do it but I hear people pay for that sort of thing. ;)
 
Stewartb said:
Most guys entering into a business venture have good knowledge of the work they propose to provide. I guess that isn't important here. Maybe I should start a thread about opening a brain surgery clinic. I don't have a friggin clue about how to do it but I hear people pay for that sort of thing. ;)
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Ya know....you could make a fortune doing that.:confused:
 
azblackbird said:
Most definitely, but I would think a guy with a good in-house team could turn 20 planes a year and find buyers for them. Are you going to get super rich doing it? Probably not, but it would be giving guys a decent living and returning some good aircraft back into the GA population.
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Here's an exercise for you. Compute the fully burdened labor costs for your 'in house team'. Find an example of the type of plane you're looking to acquire and put that along with a project plan and timeline in order to get your project to sell-able condition. Let us know how that goes for you.

The examples of 'success' that you're showing are organizations that aren't moving a lot of product or are very specific in what they do. They're the industry experts for it. If I found an old Steerman and wanted it refirbed then I would without a doubt go to Rare aircraft. Places like Yingling aviation have an established line of business doing a multitude of other things. I would speculate they're using things like the 172 to test a market or help use up some idle labor.

I'm all for refurbishing old airplanes obviously since I fly one, but I would only suggest it if you plan on flying it.
 
I have a pilot friend that went and got an A&P from a local school. He has a full time day job with AT&T as a geek. He skydives on the weekend to earn fuel money (tandem jumps). Last year he bought a ramp queen 172 and has been working on it in the evenings. It has needed a lot of tender loving care and he's put countless hours into it. Once it is finished we will probably put on leaseback in a Flying club we have at the airport. I don't think he expects to make any real money off of it, he's doing it more for the experience he's gaining after school.
 
As a business, I am not sure. But I did know a A&P/IA that used to repair damaged airplanes as a side job/retirement plan. He would purchase damaged airplanes from insurane companies at auction, and rebuild/repair them, fly them for a bit, then sell them. He usually worked on Citabrias and the like, but occasionally would take on other projects he found. Being an A&P/IA and a painter, he had no labor costs other than his time and materials, and could turn a $10,000 or less hulk into a $40K+ airplane. He usually would turn maybe one a year.
 
midwestpa24 said:
As a business, I am not sure. But I did know a A&P/IA that used to repair damaged airplanes as a side job/retirement plan. He would purchase damaged airplanes from insurane companies at auction, and rebuild/repair them, fly them for a bit, then sell them. He usually worked on Citabrias and the like, but occasionally would take on other projects he found. Being an A&P/IA and a painter, he had no labor costs other than his time and materials, and could turn a $10,000 or less hulk into a $40K+ airplane. He usually would turn maybe one a year.
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That was my thought on about the only way it could be "profitable" to refurb the common psiton-powered stuff from C/P/M. Buy a 172 cheap (like $10K) and refurb the cosmetics and any corrosion, fix anything necessary in the radio stack without going to glass, sell for $40K and any profit you made between purchase of aircraft and materials is the reimbursement for your labor. Of course it's only doable as an A&P/IA, or perhaps a pair of them who can split the profits. I'd think one or two a year at most as a bit of retirement income would be about all you could expect from it.
 
Go big, or go home ;)



 
Stewartb said:
Most guys entering into a business venture have good knowledge of the work they propose to provide. I guess that isn't important here. Maybe I should start a thread about opening a brain surgery clinic. I don't have a frigging clue about how to do it but I hear people pay for that sort of thing. ;)
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Like AZBlackbird is too see the viability with the market... just look at some of the prices for the C152-C172, PA38, BE77... the good ones are getting snapped up ASAP... Recently I saw a 1989 low time air-frame/engine IFR ready Piper Cadet listed @$45K... SOLD! I talked to the owner and he told me he had no less that 10 calls a day after the ad hit...

But I too agree this is a venture that you'll need to really research or lose your shirt after two maybe three years.... you're going to need to be capitalized for the long haul and start revenue realization with in a year if you're just jumping into this. The way I see it is that there are companies (mentioned above) already in the market; however, this is not their only business, they are long past the backside of the learning curve, and probably have established discount arrangements with their suppliers that will cushion the bottom line with each air frame.

There are some hurdles to a "start up", but one does not need to graduate Phi Betta Kappa from the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery to start a business... with the right attitude, some financial backing, and bringing in the right knowledge it can be done.. I have seen quite a few Davids slay some pretty big Goliths over the years..

Ventucky Red ... break!
 
midwestpa24 said:
As a business, I am not sure. But I did know a A&P/IA that used to repair damaged airplanes as a side job/retirement plan. He would purchase damaged airplanes from insurane companies at auction, and rebuild/repair them, fly them for a bit, then sell them. He usually worked on Citabrias and the like, but occasionally would take on other projects he found. Being an A&P/IA and a painter, he had no labor costs other than his time and materials, and could turn a $10,000 or less hulk into a $40K+ airplane. He usually would turn maybe one a year.
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The planes for this business venture would be clean airframes with no damage and no corrosion, just sun rot as are many of the neglected planes on the ramps here in AZ are. They would require new paint, new windows, new interiors, maybe an engine overhaul, and an updated panel. The idea would be to find a nice 4-place aircraft that would be a step-up from a trainer in the $10k range or less. This would require a diligent buyer who could convince the owners (or their families) to let go of it for a cheap enough price. Find the right plane, bring it in-house, strip it down to bare metal, take out the windows, strip out the interior, pull the engine and begin the refurb process. Not that hard with the right team of people doing the work.

What's funny is judging by some of the comments here, I can tell who's held a wrench in their hand and who hasn't. Pretty scary. :rofl:
 
Ventucky Red said:
There are some hurdles to a "start up", but one does not need to graduate Phi Betta Kappa from the Harvard School of Rocket Surgery to start a business... with the right attitude, some financial backing, and bringing in the right knowledge it can be done.. I have seen quite a few Davids slay some pretty big Goliths over the years..
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Just looking to fill a niche, that by my observations is not being readily filled. Every business I've ever had I filled a niche somewhere, and have made a good living in doing so. ;)
 
cgrab said:
I've rebuilt an MGB, an FJ-40 and I'm currently driving a Willys pickup that I restored. I make allot of the parts I need and/or get them from a junk yard. New parts like tires and mufflers are mass produced and easy to find. I think the parts for planes are produced in small quantities and there is little competition. The rule still applies that when it comes off the shelf, like when a new car leaves the lot, it looses value. If you have to buy new parts (how could you sell it otherwise) you're already in the hole.
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You are allowed to fabricate your own parts for your own plane (airlines do this all the time). So if you are sophisticated enough to be able to machine parts, you are in business, but AP must sign off.
 
teejayevans said:
You are allowed to fabricate your own parts for your own plane (airlines do this all the time). So if you are sophisticated enough to be able to machine parts, you are in business, but AP must sign off.
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Yes, machine shop in-house fabricating any parts needed. Pretty easy to do these days with the 3-axis - 5-axis CNCs. Fricking laser measurement tools these days can get you down to .0001" That's better than the original OEM parts tolerances in many cases.
 
azblackbird said:
Some here just don't get it. There are many people exactly like yourself who clamor for a brand new airplane, but just can't afford it. They can buy a refurb (or do it themselves) for 1/2 or 1/3 the price and it will last them the rest of their lives.
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EminiTrader said:
For a guy who doesn't even know how to fly yet you sure are an expert at general aviation. Amazing what 400 posts in 2 weeks will do for a guy.
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I was thinking the same thing. BUT by all means though give it shot. I wish you well.

If I had a dollar for every guy that was going to take a roached out plane and make it into something I could afford a 100k 172.
 
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