Insurance for a new AP

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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El Conquistador
I have a friend who is looking to start up doing AP work at a nearby airport. The airport, is requiring liability insurance. The airport has been kinda vague about the specifics. But there is a new airport manager and he is following airport operating rules. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of thing?
 
Insurance for a new A&P working out of the trunk of his car, good luck.
 
The insurance the airport will want is probably $2 million naming the airport as an insured. When you friend sees what that is going to cost him he will no longer be interested.
 
This is the misconception of a lot of airport managers, The A&P working on aircraft is not working for the airport, they are working for the aircraft owner.

The aircraft owner is caught in the middle.
 
Clip4 said:
The insurance the airport will want is probably $2 million naming the airport as an insured. When you friend sees what that is going to cost him he will no longer be interested.
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Most of us A&P simply work out of site of the airport manager, we must have the aircraft owner with us as sponsors.

PAE is the best example of this type of managership
 
Clip4 said:
The insurance the airport will want is probably $2 million naming the airport as an insured. When you friend sees what that is going to cost him he will no longer be interested.
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That airport needs to learn how to have sex with themselves.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have a friend who is looking to start up doing AP work at a nearby airport. The airport, is requiring liability insurance. The airport has been kinda vague about the specifics. But there is a new airport manager and he is following airport operating rules. Does anyone have any experience with this kind of thing?
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You don't know it, but you hit on a very sore subject for A&Ps
 
I think the insurance, biz license, Sales use tax permit, and hangar lease prohibition on maintenance it has more keeping the local FBO's happy than reason.
 
Yeah, my Dad's airport wanted a $2m liability policy for him to have his own fuel tank at the hangar, the club hangar nearby has had their own fuel tank for at least 25 years, apparently grandfathered in. How many times has the city fire department responded to a fire (let alone a fuel tank fire) in the history of the airport? ZERO, it has never happened. They dropped it at that point.

A local has sued the airport authority over hangar leases, see he (and others) fly airplanes that are uninsurable, but they secured the lease somehow and now they want to boot tenants. There is language in our leases demanding coverage that insurance agents say "doesn't exist".
 
I just went through this. Insurance companies have a minimum cost, regardless of how small the operation. It is $6,000 a year. I tried every avenue and 6,000 is the absolute lowest quote I got.
The a&p on the airport is a rip off, people use him once and never again and the airport manager is begging me to open a maintenance operation but they want me to carry insurance. For the amount of money I’d make 6k in insurance makes it financially stupid. I’m retired and have no wish to work full time and there isn’t enough business anyway.
The really stupid thing is the airport wants product liability insurance and I asked what did they think the product was as I would only be doing annuals.
Have fun trying to argue with a government lawyer or worse a county commissioner.
 
I simply don't tell the airport management anything, At PAE my customers get me thru the gate, I work in their hangars and say nothing. At BVS I am treated like I'm a service provider, the airport management allow me to have a gate card. I don't tell them when I come or go. AWO I have the gate combo, and tell the management nothing. Harvey Field My customers get me thru the gate, and we tell the airport nothing.
Lots of times it is easier to beg forgiveness than to gain permission.
Anacourtes and Bayview (BVS) are the best run airports I frequent, they both belong to the Port commission which have Pilots and aircraft owners on the board, They want us to be free to come and go and fix their tenants aircraft.
 
I I am contemplating making my AP a partner in the aircraft. No money to change hands but put him as an officer on the LLC that owns the aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
I simply don't tell the airport management anything, At PAE my customers get me thru the gate, I work in their hangars and say nothing. At BVS I am treated like I'm a service provider, the airport management allow me to have a gate card. I don't tell them when I come or go. AWO I have the gate combo, and tell the management nothing. Harvey Field My customers get me thru the gate, and we tell the airport nothing.
Lots of times it is easier to beg forgiveness than to gain permission.
Anacourtes and Bayview (BVS) are the best run airports I frequent, they both belong to the Port commission which have Pilots and aircraft owners on the board, They want us to be free to come and go and fix their tenants aircraft.
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Are you saying that you have no liability insurance? Yeow. You've apparently never been sued.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Are you saying that you have no liability insurance? Yeow. You've apparently never been sued.
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Yer right, I never have been sued, Lawyers will not go after anyone with empty pockets.
 
Tom-D said:
Yer right, I never have been sued, Lawyers will not go after anyone with empty pockets.
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I’m the same, no point in suing someone that has no assets. My problem is the rip off king at my airport thinks he owns the place. He claims he has insurance and I’m thinking of filing a freedom of information claim on the county to see if he really has a policy of just a buddy in the local government.
 
Tom-D said:
Yer right, I never have been sued, Lawyers will not go after anyone with empty pockets.
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Yes they will; at the least, they will try to stop you practicing your trade!
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yes they will; at the least, they will try to stop you practicing your trade!
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Old fear tactic of insurance salesmen, doesn't happen in real life. If a Lawyer can't make 500 grand they won't bother.
The only one who can stop me from practicing my trade is the FAA. Even then, they can only revoke the A&P, 30 days later I can retake all the tests and start over.
 
Tom-D said:
Yer right, I never have been sued, Lawyers will not go after anyone with empty pockets.
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And you have identified the reason that some airports ask that those operating a business on their property being insured and/or naming the airport as a named insured. Because if there is an issue, the airport gets sued instead.
 
chemgeek said:
And you have identified the reason that some airports ask that those operating a business on their property being insured and/or naming the airport as a named insured. Because if there is an issue, the airport gets sued instead.
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I work for the aircraft owner, I am not running a business on the airport, I am not a contractor under contract to the airport.
If there is an issue, it is between the airport and my employer.
 
Tom-D said:
I work for the aircraft owner, I am not running a business on the airport, I am not a contractor under contract to the airport.
If there is an issue, it is between the airport and my employer.
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Litigators don't necessarily see it that way, as you previously alluded. If there was an issue arising from your work that resulted in a claim, the airport could get caught in litigation. That's why responsible airport boards worry about mitigating this kind of risk.
 
Tom-D said:
I work for the aircraft owner, I am not running a business on the airport, I am not a contractor under contract to the airport.
If there is an issue, it is between the airport and my employer.
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The airport could easily ban you from the premises. It is not a right to be there. If they see you as a liability you won’t get through the gate.
 
Paulie said:
The airport could easily ban you from the premises. It is not a right to be there. If they see you as a liability you won’t get through the gate.
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I normally come and go without notice.
the same thing could apply to you too. If you were with a owner in their hangar, and you caused a problem.
I'm no different, except for the reason to be there.
You as a CFI giving lessons from a owner's hangar, Aren't you a liability to the airport?
Why should I as an A&P be singled out as a liability and you not?

Aren't CFIs a service provider to owners on the airport? are they required to be insured?
 
I don’t have a problem with it, the insurance for a little guy is stupid expensive but they airport could be jerks if you have a guy on the field like I have here.
 
+1. most airports require a&p insurance. not all of them enforce it though. people just work behind closed doors.
 
Tom-D said:
I normally come and go without notice.
the same thing could apply to you too. If you were with a owner in their hangar, and you caused a problem.
I'm no different, except for the reason to be there.
You as a CFI giving lessons from a owner's hangar, Aren't you a liability to the airport?
Why should I as an A&P be singled out as a liability and you not?

Aren't CFIs a service provider to owners on the airport? are they required to be insured?
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Owners are required to carry insurance, too. So is the flight school. It's not just the maintenance facility. Someone burns down a hangar and neighboring hangars, e.g., the airport doesn't want to be the first litigation stop. I sympathize with the outrageous insurance costs, but that may say something about the risk pool.
 
chemgeek said:
Owners are required to carry insurance, too. So is the flight school. It's not just the maintenance facility. Someone burns down a hangar and neighboring hangars, e.g., the airport doesn't want to be the first litigation stop. I sympathize with the outrageous insurance costs, but that may say something about the risk pool.
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Now there's a question, How many owners carry a personal liability insurance, Because if the aircraft isn't in motion for the intended purpose of flight I doubt the aircraft's liability insurance will cover a hangar fire. If your aircraft is damaged by some one else then the hull insurance would cover it.
If you were say, smoking in the hangar and started a fire, I doubt you'd have insurance for that.

Flight schools may have insurance, but how many CFIS have a personal risk liability insurance? Most I know have a policy that will cover harm to your aircraft but if the aircraft is not involved what then?
 
Tom-D said:
If you were say, smoking in the hangar and started a fire, I doubt you'd have insurance for that.
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Most owner policies should cover it. For example, my policy reads

12. Premises Extension
Under PART THREE - LIABILITY TO OTHERS -
Paragraph 1 "What We Cover" is extended to include
damage you are legally required to pay for bodily
injury or property damage caused by an
occurrence arising out of your legal use of premises
at an airport. Premises means the portion of an
airport used for the immediate parking, tiedown or
storage of your aircraft.
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chemgeek said:
Not really. The owner is covered.
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+1. My policy explicitly defines what "you" means:

You and your means the person(s) or organization(s) named in Item 1 of the Coverage Identification Page
under the heading "Named Insured."
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So, if you have the a/c owner add you on his policy then you are covered. It actually may be a good idea. I think I'm going to explore that option with my agent and may be add my mech to my policy as a non-flying covered person.
 
Isosceles said:
+1. My policy explicitly defines what "you" means:

So, if you have the a/c owner add you on his policy then you are covered. It actually may be a good idea. I think I'm going to explore that option with my agent and may be add my mech to my policy as a non-flying covered person.
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That would be an excellent solution for all involved. I'd like to hear if it is feasible.
 
chemgeek said:
That would be an excellent solution for all involved. I'd like to hear if it is feasible.
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I believe that it would still require a team of lawyers to sort it all out.
Why go there?
 
Tom-D said:
Old fear tactic of insurance salesmen, doesn't happen in real life. If a Lawyer can't make 500 grand they won't bother.
The only one who can stop me from practicing my trade is the FAA. Even then, they can only revoke the A&P, 30 days later I can retake all the tests and start over.
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You might want to read 14 CFR 65.11. You have to wait one year.

I'll even help you out.

§65.11 Application and issue.
.

(d) Unless the order of revocation provides otherwise—

(1) A person whose air traffic control tower operator, aircraft dispatcher, or parachute rigger certificate is revoked may not apply for the same kind of certificate for 1 year after the date of revocation; and

(2) A person whose mechanic or repairman certificate is revoked may not apply for either of those kinds of certificates for 1 year after the date of revocation.
 
SkyDog58 said:
You might want to read 14 CFR 65.11. You have to wait one year.

I'll even help you out.

§65.11 Application and issue.
.

(d) Unless the order of revocation provides otherwise—

(1) A person whose air traffic control tower operator, aircraft dispatcher, or parachute rigger certificate is revoked may not apply for the same kind of certificate for 1 year after the date of revocation; and

(2) A person whose mechanic or repairman certificate is revoked may not apply for either of those kinds of certificates for 1 year after the date of revocation.
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The saving grace is, the FAA seldom revokes, they suspend. For a period. When the FAA suspends a A&P certificate it breaks the time you must be a A&P to be a IA. Then you must wait 3 years until the retest.
 
brien23 said:
Insurance for a new A&P working out of the trunk of his car, good luck.
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Actually, there is no insurance company that will write a policy for that, you must be an incorporated company.
 
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