Insurance Claim Process

CessnaJack said:
Get the police report and it’s a done deal, for a 10k or so claim there is a zero chance his insurance company is going to try to dispute a police officer, plus photos, they’ll pay out
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I'm not sure why the police would even take a report on this, but police reports do not have magical powers.

You likely also have a limited window to present a claim to your insurance company, so if you dink arrive with all that and the outcome is, "We've found no liability because it was an act of God," you may be out of luck.
 
CessnaJack said:
As others said the poster already had his mind made up, it will be interesting to see how is insurance changes for whatever excuse the insurance gives over the next year or two
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That I am indeed curious about as well. My broker said it shouldn't affect me. It wasn't an "at fault" event.
 
yeah, I'm inclined to agree with the prior poster and say that reads like automotive misattribution lore. "at fault/not at fault" is just not a thing in low volume antique road show aviation insurance.

The 5-year lookback question box will have to be checked 'yes' in the renewal, and just like home insurance, you're gonna get bent with little recourse, insurance being a captive market after all. How much? That part I don't know as my situation was handled by the injuring party's insurance; I never had to make a claim on mine.

Perhaps those who have gone through the case study can pipe up with how much their insurance renewal was quoted at, post-claim.
 
CessnaJack said:
Not magical, but what the cop observed and documented is going to hold much more weight than what the damaged or damaging party claimed.
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The cop observed nothing. If you get one to take a report, he'll record what you told him. Of he comes to the airport (good luck), he can report only the position of the aircraft when he gets there, not how they arrived at that position. And certainly you could document that yourself with a camera.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I get all of you who say go after that Cessna owner. My worry is, it'll take ages going that route. I don't have his phone number - just a name and address. In the past 6 months at the airport, I saw him once. If I do finally get to him, I doubt he'll write a check voluntarily. If he has insurance, they may, or may not work with me (e.g. "Sorry, act of God. We think his plane was tied down sufficiently - sue us"). If he doesn't have insurance (it doesn't seem to be required - I just looked at my lease agreement and it only states that you're responsible for damage you cause but doesn't say you must have insurance) then I'll have to drag him to court which will take months at best. At the end, I may be stuck with legal fees, repair bill and a grounded plane for several months. If I let the insurance handle it, I will hopefully be back in the air by the end of the month without spending hours being ****ed about the situation. Maybe I get reminded of it when it's time to renew the insurance but maybe not - who knows at that point.
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After suing someone for non payment of a 9k check. And settling for 11k. I'm out 12k and still haven't seen any money 2.5 years later.
 
My present work commute boondoggle is one of many glaring examples of pyrrhic victories in my life; which is to say I've always had a penchant for scorching earth over a principle, at my own expense. That said, 11k is just not a hill I'm willing to die on. That's a lot of renewals, even if the OP gets hit with premium increases for the next 5 years (the usual lookback).

In fairness, let's give the cessna owner a chance. Unless, the OP has already contacted the party and been ignored, we don't fully know if the owner of the cessna is liability-uninsured.
 
Police are trained in the investigation of motor vehicle accidents to determine fault.

Are police trained in aircraft tie down procedures?
 
As noted, I went through this a few years ago. Plane parked and some guy taxied into me. I called my agent and he said I could go to either insurance company and a mild preference for the other insurer. As noted, they don’t work for me and I expected many a fight. I went to my company and made it their problem to subrogate. All expenses were paid including airfare to/from the shop, travel food, parts, labor, along with parts that were better than previously attached. I vaguely recall buying @Jim K gas for a ride to pick it up and that was covered. I didn’t expense the pain and suffering in flying a plane at 0F, but I digress. Total 10k on my rewards credit as fuel so that worked out nicely.

Yes, each renewal the claim has been stated. My agent went to bat for me each year and my rates have decreased every time with switching carriers or staying with the same one based on the best rate available.
 
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My only thought about going after the Cessna guy and his insurance is that, if it goes to court, you need to prove that his negligence is what caused the damage. Do you have photographs of his tie-down process, good or bad, before the storm? In other words, can you prove it was his fault and not the "act of God" that many will claim it to be.
 
CessnaJack said:
I’d see if their insurance is going to cover it, they will, here’s the police report, photos and cost to fix it, call my mechanic to arrange payment and if you have any questions.

That will 99.9% be the end of it
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Rightttttt… If only OTHER people’s insurance companies are that simple to work with.
 
It's always been my understanding that part of what you pay insurance for is representation by their lawyers so that you don't have to pursue something like this on your own. I also wonder if there isn't some clause in the contract that says you're required to report any damage to them.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Did you read my thread? My broker and underwriter ****ing lied to me and said the same thing. Hopefully your situation goes better.
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I have no doubt they did and honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if my broker and underwriter will as well. But, there is this 50% (or maybe 25% or 5%) chance that they won’t. In the meantime, no matter if my rates go up, I have them deal with the plane, Cessna owner, mechanic (to an extend at least I guess) and i can continue working and living without this issue being on top of mind 24/7. If I end up paying back the amount of damage over 5 years in increased insurance rates, then that’s my price to pay for the convenience and it’s essentially an interest free loan. Had i gone solo trying to recoup from the Cessna owner, I may or may not have paid the same but I’d definitely grow more grey hair.

As for filing a police report: Last night when it happened, I doubt police would have come out there. The entire town lost power, people’s homes and businesses got damaged. Roads were closed because of 100 year old trees that fell on the roads. They had better things to do than to listen to some whiny pilot whose toy got damaged. By the time I got out to the airport today, the Cessna was neatly back in its place. Luckily I have photos of how it was trying to hump my plane last night though and I did immediately file a report with the airport manager.
 
I got screwed by my auto insurer about a decade ago - I had a fender-bender that did cosmetic body damage to a (then) 20-year old car which blue booked between $500-700. I offered a cash settlement to the owner, who declined waving some $3,000 body shop estimate. I threw it to my insurer, figuring they would handle the negotiations the same way they did to me some years earlier when my own vehicle was a total loss.

It turns out my insurer paid the owner 3x the street value of his car for repairs rather than total it, and increased my rates accordingly -- with a ratable accident claim that negatively affected my ability to shop elsewhere. I shopped my policy anyway and told my broker if you can place me with ANY other carrier for $1 less in premium, take it. My econ professor taught me that there is only one past, and it affects all options equally. After making my decision to file the claim, I was stuck with the outcome of that, but I'd be damned if I rewarded the carrier who screwed me with a premium increase for their malfeasance.
 
DJTorrente said:
I got screwed by my auto insurer about a decade ago - I had a fender-bender that did cosmetic body damage to a (then) 20-year old car which blue booked between $500-700. I offered a cash settlement to the owner, who declined waving some $3,000 body shop estimate. I threw it to my insurer, figuring they would handle the negotiations the same way they did to me some years earlier when my own vehicle was a total loss.

It turns out my insurer paid the owner 3x the street value of his car for repairs rather than total it, and increased my rates accordingly -- with a ratable accident claim that negatively affected my ability to shop elsewhere. I shopped my policy anyway and told my broker if you can place me with ANY other carrier for $1 less in premium, take it. My econ professor taught me that there is only one past, and it affects all options equally. After making my decision to file the claim, I was stuck with the outcome of that, but I'd be damned if I rewarded the carrier who screwed me with a premium increase for their malfeasance.
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What would have been your alternative in this case though? You already offered cash to the guy and he didn’t take it.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
What would have been your alternative in this case though? You already offered cash to the guy and he didn’t take it.
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Offer more. (Funny how that usually works out.) I think he expected me to cover the full cost of his $3k estimate -- maybe more. I offered him the book value ($700) he should have gotten to total the car (a rusted 1997 Dodge Neon in 2015). Small dollars in the grand scheme, but I fully expected my insurer to take a hard line with him -- as least as hard as they did with me when I had a claim of my own. My insurer overpaid him to make him go away, expecting to tack the entire claim onto my premiums. In the end I paid, except I refused to pay it to my (previous) insurer and took my coverage elsewhere.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
That I am indeed curious about as well. My broker said it shouldn't affect me. It wasn't an "at fault" event.
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I had a storm loss three years ago. My plane was hit by a derecho that broke the tie down ropes. No fault except Mother Nature.

My insurance went up considerably and my options went to only a single vendor willing to insure.

Just FYI.

 
CessnaJack said:
I was trying to find info on a insurance company and stumbled on this,

DONT DO THAT

I have had this type of thing happen to my plane once, as well as a car over the years.

THIS IS NOT A ISSUE FOR YOUR INSURANCE, unless the other guy doesn’t have insurance/money to make it right.


1) Call the local police and have them come out and make a report, take tons of photos.

2) Have the cops get the insurance info from the other guy, show the cops how to look up the owner info, also provide the airport/FBOs contact, people tend to give cops insurance when “asked”

3) Call THEIR insurance and put the claim through them, armed with a police report and photos send some estimates and they can cut a check.


My insurance company only comes into play if the issue was on ME.

This is Mr I Can’t Tie a Knots claim, not yours, nothing your insurance company needs to even hear about.

Photos plus a police report and estimates and you’ll be fine
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Good luck. I worked as a cop for 30 years. This isn’t a police matter - it’s a civil matter. When a tornado touches down on an airport, this is an act of god incident. Had the neighbor walked over and beat the plane with a hammer, there would have been a crime. Negligent failure to secure a plane to withstand tornado strength winds is not criminal and most police will not get involved in a civil matter and they aren’t doing a report.

The other owner is under no obligation to give the police any insurance information. In fact, Texas doesn’t require aircraft insurance and there is no law requiring anyone to provide proof it exists. So why is it you think a police officer is getting involved with requesting insurance from an aircraft owner who is not required to have? In the same situation, had your barbecue grill flew through my living room picture window, do you think the police would do a report, take 8x10 color glossies and demand your home owners insurance information?

Insurance is a contract. The only person who may make a claim on a liability insurance policy is the insured. The insurance is under no obligation to get involved until a person sues the insured for damages.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
Depends. My insurance agent said adjuster will take care of it within 24 hours - if not, I should call her and she'll make sure it gets done. From my understanding, I can use my regular mechanic for repairs. In fact, he's the only one on the field anyways and the plane can't be flown right now. If I end up paying out of pocket, sue the guy and end up not winning (as mentioned before, most non-aviation folks wouldn't necessarily understand aviation related incidents), I'm stuck with repair cost + legal cost and can't go back to my insurance asking them to handle because plane was repaired without their adjuster involved. Also, even if all goes well - right now it looks like damage is about $10k which I guess would be fine, but if my mechanic comes back with a higher estimate due to internal damage, I honestly don't want to put that much at risk, especially mere weeks after having written a big fat check to do the gear AD, Aussie horn, a bunch of other smaller ADs AND fix a bird strike.
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for Auto claims I have had my insurance agent basically say work with the other persons insurance, if I am not happy with how they handle it then call my insurance agent. Mostly just let him know there is a claim so if there is a problem I am not surprising him a month after the event.

I have also been told that some good insurance company’s will evaluate the the company of the responsible party and if they are insured by some specific discount insurance companies the good company will treat claim as if the responsible party is uninsured and just take care of the damage, and then go after the insurance company. I.e. They know an individual trying to file a claim with the discount company is not going to go well.

My take away, ask your agent how to proceed?

Brian
 
CessnaJack said:
Yeah, they will pay it with photos, police report and a estimate.

10k or so vs legal issues and probably paying more, they’ll cut a check

And if you think not a fault marketing will keep your rates from going up, via one excuse clause or another, if your insurance has to pay, I have a bridge to sell you

Smart move is to only involve your insurance as a last resort
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Get a better insurance company.

Cheapest is not the best criteria for picking a company.
 
robin ardoin said:
Nothing stopping you from suing him for lost value and direct costs not reimbursed by insurance after your insurer settles the claim.
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And unless you do the suit in small claims court yourself, how much does the legal fees cost?
 
Clip4 said:
The only person who may make a claim on a liability insurance policy is the insured. The insurance is under no obligation to get involved until a person sues the insured for damages.
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Nope. If you hit me, I can make a claim against your liability insurance. I don't have to sue you.

I have done so several times.
 
And now begins the barracks lawyer phase of the thread. Anyone wanna place over unders on how many posts before admiralty law is invoked?

:deadhorse:
 
Not only not any kind of lawyer, but haven't stayed in a holiday in in over 30 years. But AI tells me that the small claims limit in Texas is 20k. FWIW and future reference.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
We had bad thunderstorms in Texas, including a tornado that touched down on the runway at the airport I'm at. I'm in an open T-Hangar. No damage to the t-hangar but my not so smart hangar neighbor can't tie his stupid Cessna 150 down properly. My plane was anchored to the ground, didn't move an inch. His Cessna literally flew into mine because he doesn't choke his plane and ties it down way too loose. So, his tail hit my aileron and possibly more - it's dark so I'll see the full damage tomorrow. Where do I go from here? Do I sue him? Do I tell the insurance? Airport? Never met this guy but he's been ****ing me off for months by how he parks and "ties down" his damn airplane. Others on the field apparently told him several times to tie it down properly.
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Oh this sucks, didn’t you just have a bird strike too?

Just call your insurance, and how often does this guy fly? Just tie down his airplane for him properly when you’re there. Saves you some headache ;)
 
Anthem said:
just to clarify - a tornado or hurricane ripping through and causing damage is not classified as a "not at fault" insurance claim. They may cover the damage and the claim - but it is not a "not at fault" claim. A not at fault is usually where ANOTHER party is at fault - and covers all the expenses related to the damage to your plane - whether directly, through subrogation/lawsuit.
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That’s what the insurance does, hopefully. My plane didn’t move an inch. The Cessna moved into my plane.

mandm said:
Oh this sucks, didn’t you just have a bird strike too?

Just call your insurance, and how often does this guy fly? Just tie down his airplane for him properly when you’re there. Saves you some headache ;)
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Yup, that’s taken care of. Also got all of my ADs taken care of for the importation process. It keeps on giving I guess lol.
 
There are events? And drinking??

I thought this place was just about making of fun of pilot's that had youtube pages, and yelling at clouds.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
We had bad thunderstorms in Texas, including a tornado that touched down on the runway at the airport I'm at. I'm in an open T-Hangar. No damage to the t-hangar but my not so smart hangar neighbor can't tie his stupid Cessna 150 down properly. My plane was anchored to the ground, didn't move an inch. His Cessna literally flew into mine because he doesn't choke his plane and ties it down way too loose. So, his tail hit my aileron and possibly more - it's dark so I'll see the full damage tomorrow. Where do I go from here? Do I sue him? Do I tell the insurance? Airport? Never met this guy but he's been ****ing me off for months by how he parks and "ties down" his damn airplane. Others on the field apparently told him several times to tie it down properly.
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I'm a claims adjuster. Submit to your insurance carrier and they will pay for your damage. Storms are an "act of God" so it's a straight forward process with your insurance. It will be difficult to go after the 150 owner under the same "act of God", so let your insurance take care of it and if they think they have a case they can pursue the 150 owner in "subrogation".
 
Geosync said:
I'm a claims adjuster. Submit to your insurance carrier and they will pay for your damage. Storms are an "act of God" so it's a straight forward process with your insurance. It will be difficult to go after the 150 owner under the same "act of God", so let your insurance take care of it and if they think they have a case they can pursue the 150 owner in "subrogation".
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I presume the insurance company pays the claim and then sues God, no?
 
I am sorry you have to go through this.

@mark.staggs @rwellner98 @hindsight2020 @Anthem have all noted either their personal aviation insurance experiences or their applicable knowledge on how the claim may be classified, and what happens after you are made whole and want insurance again.

I'll add my story here. Like theirs, it isn't going to make you feel warm and fuzzy. Early last year, I had to land my previous plane without a nose landing gear. It was the first flight out of annual. All indications are that my (ex) IA bungled something up that caused a main linkage in the NLG to snap when it was retracted, jamming the gear in the up position. Nothing could have been done to get it down. The insurance wrote it off. The ASI at my local FSDO wrote a letter for me attesting that pilot error in no way contributed to the incident, and that I had performed excellently dealing with the emergency. You think insurance cared? Nope. When I went to buy a new plane, only one insurer would offer me hull coverage on my replacement aircraft, and the price was laughably high (well into five figures) and included a $15,000 deductible. I am now flying with liability only on a $200K airplane, and I have been told my quote for full hull coverage will not realistically be below $10K until 24 months from the incident at the earliest. I wouldn't be flying at all if it weren't for the fact that I am fortunate enough to have been able to buy a replacement plane cash.

So yeah. If you haven't made a move yet, you may want to consider that your future insurability will be seriously in question if you involve your own insurance company. Obviously, use your own insurance if you must. That is why you pay for it. But go after the other guy (and any applicable insurance he may have) directly if you can. I've learned through bitter experience that aviation insurance claims are something you really only have the privilege of filing once every 2-5 years.
 
geezer said:
My airport will not lease you a tie down until you provide them with a copy of your liability policy.
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Same here for my hangar lease, plus I had to add them as a "named insured." But the airport where I lease a tie down did not require any insurance info.
 
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