Instrument Checkride Discontinuance

TK211X

TK211X

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I have subsequently removed my posts from this thread and would like to see it closed.
 
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you might want to edit out the DPE's you named in your post.

On my PPL the DPE refused to accept tomato flames and other memorized stuff and asked more questions about systems to assure I knew them. Also, reciting an answer vs knowing how to reason through the question and find the answer is valued.

I have not done the IFR Oral... yet.. is the approach different from the DPE?

Sounds like your II was giving you the advice of how to talk a lawyer or cop. Answer truthfully in the shortest number of words possible.
 
Sounds like you should be doing some dry run orals with your CFI.

Figure out not just WHAT the answers is but HOW to answer. LISTEN to the question completely before starting your answer, pause before speaking.

Ask for a rephrase if you don't understand what's being asked, example "are you referring to the 123 rule?" before just blurting out.

And be humble and short when answering. If the DPE wants more they will ask for more. But if you give more answer than asked the DPE will go there and start down a new path with you if you open it up.
 
I recommending following the advice of your flight instructor.
He is probably familiar with your weaknesses and the focus of various DPEs.
 
Don't do a test oral with your instructor. Get a different senior instructor who didn't train you to do a mock oral hitting everything on the pts...


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HA!...for a second I though you were TALKING about Chuck Brown. He was my DPE and I had a similarly frustrating experience when he kept asking the SAME question when I kept asking for clarification and rephrase. Part of his MO was to push ya a bit and made sure you understood the concepts vs just memorizing and regurgitating.

It was frustrating but overall he was good and he was more than fair once I was done and able to evaluate it post mortem...but in the moment it was aggravating.

My CFI and I pushed my schedule a bit to get ready for my checkride and fit into HIS schedule vs just picking another DPE if that tells ya anything.
 
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TK211X said:
So I recently got signed off to take my IR SEL. I read the Jeppesen IFR/CPL book and passed the King School courses on Written and practical prep. Instructor was confident I was going to pass and signed me off and saying my knowledge is good and so is my flying. He says the only thing is I usually say too much and that I can easily dig myself a hole on the oral. I opted for a discontinuance yesterday during the Oral because I felt like even though I could pass I just was not comfortable continuing with that particular DPE due to the way the questions were asked. I felt lost and cautious trying to give an answer without digging myself a hole as a direct blanket answer was not the answer that was looked for with little additional clarification given. I felt like if I continued with answering those type of questions without understanding the exact answer that was sought I would easily end up trying to find a different answer that would end up taking me for a very long oral. The weather was also trash during the early afternoon.
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Wait a minute - something either doesn't quite add up, or I'm misunderstanding something.

The way you make it sound is this:
- Your instructor thought you could pass and signed you off.
- You were, so far, passing the oral and you felt that you could continue to pass.
- Apparently the examiner was satisfied so far because he had not discontinued the checkride himself.
- However, you felt the oral would end up taking too long.
- So you decided to discontinue the checkride, even though you were passing, thought you would continue to pass, and the examiner was satisfied with your performance.

Is that right? Honestly, that's so completely foreign to me as a concept that I have to believe there's more to it. Why did you discontinue the checkride?

Examiners examine. It's their job to see what you know. They will often ask vague questions just to see what your thought process is. They're not supposed to ask rote, memorization-based questions like "what is the maximum approach speed for Category A", they're supposed to ask more open-ended questions like "we're flying to XXX - what are some considerations we'll face?" - To which you might talk about going NORDO, weather, approach procedure equipment requirements, or canceling IFR into a controlled versus uncontrolled field, or whatever.
 
The instrument oral is probably the most involved (save some of the heavy iron type ratings). There's a lot of material you have to convey there from knowledge of the regulations, preflight planning and navigation, a whole slew of emergency procedures that don't exist outside IFR, weather far beyond the other ratings. It will take a long time. About the only think I think my examiner probably rushed through was aircraft systems. I think after a few questions he was willing to believe I knew aircraft systems as well as he. That whole part occurred while I was doing a preflight. Prior to that, the oral took probably took close to two hours. Once we got into the air, the flying part was kind of anticlimactic.
 
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The thing to do is to work on your attitude. Its a discontinuance, not a fail. So that is good. You have to believe you can pass it. He can't expect you to quote the FARs from memory. Tell him that, in a nice way. "Well I cant quote the FARs from memory, but this is how I see it". If you know it, he will pass you. Sometimes they are a bit picky, sometimes for reasons unknown to you. Some of them want to put pressure on you to see how you react. And the IFR one is usually the hardest (mine was).

What happens to a discontinuance if you switch DE's ??? Anyone know?
 
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coloradobluesky said:
The thing to do is to work on your attitude. Its a discontinuance, not a fail. So that is good. You have to believe you can pass it. He can't expect you to quote the FARs from memory. Tell him that, in a nice way. "Well I cant quote the FARs from memory, but this is how I see it". If you know it, he will pass you. Sometimes they are a bit picky, sometimes for reasons unknown to you. Some of them want to put pressure on you to see how you react. And the IFR one is usually the hardest (mine was).

What happens to a discountinuance if you switch DE's ??? Anyone know?
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You start from scratch with the new DE.
 
I don't know, it sounds exactly like my checkride. I was asked to show my preflight planning as well as demonstrating that everything (weather, me, the plane) was ready for the flight. I showed everything I could think of and was prompted for a few things on what we'd do in the event of lost comm, etc...
 
TK211X said:
I opted for a discontinuance yesterday during the Oral because I felt like even though I could pass I just was not comfortable continuing with that particular DPE due to the way the questions were asked.
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Sorry to hear about your experience and thanks for posting about it here, it's great learning for others out there. But as a few others noted I must say I'm a little surprised that you would volunteer to discontinue even though you were passing and felt like you could pass. Wouldn't that have actually made passing that much more satisfying? I don't mean to sound nitpicky, but as @gsengle wrote above, there's no pause or reset button in the real thing, whether IMC or not. If you find yourself in busy airspace in IMC with an unfolding emergency on your hands you won't be able to pause or reset.

For certain activities it's not a bad idea to actually opt for the "harder" examiner, lesson, or test plan. I'd much rather fail something than put my life (and those around me) in danger... but, it actually sounds like you were on the road to passing, so I'm confused
 
Based on what little study I have so far conducted I would expect the oral to be quite involved. Most of the stuff in the IR seemed to me to be intellectual, do you understand the regs, what do wx minimums look like, what can you tell about the wx based on some observations, how do navigation instruments work, etc... I would expect a thorough grilling on all that. And I for one wouldn't give up until the DPE pulled the plug. The DPE isn't there to make me feel comfortable, he or she is there to make certain I know my ****.
 
Training pros and DPEs want to make pilots. They want you to succeed. But unlike public schools and many universities and colleges these days aviation does not award participation ribbons. Aviation is a dangerous sport that can result in needless death and destruction. No one can afford incompetent, unsafe or partially trained pilots in the air.
 
citizen5000 said:
But unlike public schools and many universities and colleges these days aviation does not award participation ribbons. Aviation is a dangerous sport that can result in needless death and destruction.
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Okay so I apologies for the thread drift. But this is what I love so much about flying. You don't get a participation prize and you can't write an angry letter to someone to make everything "okay." It rewards hard work and focus and doesn't care what your gender identity or political beliefs are. It also makes my own experience more rewarding, especially after a successful cross county flight.
 
You need to know your stuff - if you know your stuff you wont be hesitant. If you're not hesitant - the DPE won't sense doubt and wonder if you know your stuff. If he doesn't wonder if yo know your stuff - he won't be looking for little things to trip you up on.

It's not that hard. If you got signed off to do the check ride - then you have ALREADY demonstrated sufficient knowledge and skill to pass the ride. All you needed to do was demonstrate it to someone else. Instead, you let yourself talk yourself out of passing. Just do it. Stop overanalyzing everything. The DPE is not gonna be your friend - its not his job either.

Moreover, your CFI-I should know more or less the types of the questions that particular DPE is likely to ask - and get you prepped on those. It can't be his/her first rodeo with this guy - so some of this is on the CFI for not properly prepping you for the ride- knowing the DPE is part of the prep.
 
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I wasn't there and won't pass judgment on it either way, but keep in mind that what an applicant views as an "open ended question" might actually be the what the examiner and the FAA considers a "scenario-based question". ;)
 
jordane93 said:
Possibly. I'm sure the next examiner will want to know why the OP chose to discontinue.
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Yes. Discontinuing and then changing your examiner does sound like something really weird was going on at that checkride.
 
jordane93 said:
Possibly. I'm sure the next examiner will want to know why the OP chose to discontinue.
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I'd bet that the new examiner may already know one side of the story before the OP even walks in for the new checkride...
 
During one of my six checkrides the examiner made me very uncomfortable and asked a lot of what I thought seemed to be either trick questions or just out of left field. For example, I had basically memorized the entire POH and he was expecting me to know stuff that wasn't even in there. I told him the answer to the question he asked wasn't in the POH and he told me to look it up in the POH. WTF. So I read the entire relevant section outloud and like I said, it wasn't in there.

I seriously contemplated asking for a discontinuance, but I kept going and ended up passing. I would never go back to that examiner again, and if I had asked for a discontinuance like OP, I would choose a different examiner. There is no sense in going back to the same one that made you want to discontinue in the first place.
 
I was not aware that I could have stopped any of the checkrides I did.
 
TK211X said:
So I recently got signed off to take my IR SEL. I read the Jeppesen IFR/CPL book and passed the King School courses on Written and practical prep. Instructor was confident I was going to pass and signed me off and saying my knowledge is good and so is my flying. He says the only thing is I usually say too much and that I can easily dig myself a hole on the oral. I opted for a discontinuance yesterday during the Oral because I felt like even though I could pass I just was not comfortable continuing with that particular DPE due to the way the questions were asked. I felt lost and cautious trying to give an answer without digging myself a hole as a direct blanket answer was not the answer that was looked for with little additional clarification given. I felt like if I continued with answering those type of questions without understanding the exact answer that was sought I would easily end up trying to find a different answer that would end up taking me for a very long oral. The weather was also trash during the early afternoon.

I fly a G1000 w/GFC700 C172
This is in the Tampa area.

After the discontinuance I was told by some that the DPE was known for long Orals and not being happy until a direct exact particularly phrased answer was given. So I am happy in a way opting for the discontinuance. Now I have the paper and I'm not sure who to schedule with as this DPE was sometimes used for other students and I was given the vague recommendation. Dr. Dan Greenwald who I used previously no longer gives Checkrides. Today I asked around from random people and was told both Chuck Brown and Gudi Davis are definitly one of the better DPE's to take checkrides with. I don't want to stay out of the airplane for long and my CFII wants to conference with the chief flight instructor on Monday for a plan of action.

I don't want to ruin any relations but I also don't feel that comfortable going back to that DPE. I really want some guidance and feedback because I'm a little conflicted in what to do.
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This is a practical test. You are supposed to be able to give more than a canned answer and be able to explain concepts and information. The examiner was having to pry information out of you because you don't adequately know the information and its application - the why, when, and how of it.
 
Or maybe if the DPE lets the option be known during the oral, it might be a hint..??:lol::lol::lol:
 
How exactly did you phrase stopping the checkride?


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@TK211X I may have missed it, but how did you do on the written?

To me, a written exam given orally would be along the lines of "here's a question and a set of answers. Choose the most correct one".

Never have experienced an oral like that.
 
TK211X said:
I don't think some here understand. It felt like I was taking a written exam orally than a practical scenario based oral.
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You're right. I don't understand.

You passed the written. You shouldn't have much trouble passing it again. Why would you police DPE technique unless it was somehow unfair to you?
 
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TK211X said:
That's my point with what happened. It's why I stopped the oral.
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Shoot me a PM if you want to talk about DPE's and the checkride. I took mine about 1 year and a half ago and I live here in Sarasota. Or if you just want someone to bounce questions off of locally.
 
gsengle said:
There is no pause button in IMC.
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And that right there is the rest of the story. Suck it up buttercup. When crap hits the fan in IMC you best know what your doing, no do-overs.

Get with your CFII and have him grill you and push you. It can be frustrating, so can multiple amendments to your route while hand flying in the clag. If your CFII thought you were ready maybe it's just a nervous confidence thing. Attack it, be positive, be the PIC.

Good luck, looking forward to your follow up, passing, post.
 
It's a legit option if the OP was uncomfortable. You can talk about a "pause button" all you want, but fact is there is one in this situation. He followed the rules. It was his checkride and his decision.

Good luck to the OP
 
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