Instrument Checkride Discontinuance

[Palmpilot]

So I recently got signed off to take my IR SEL. I read the Jeppesen IFR/CPL book and passed the King School courses on Written and practical prep. Instructor was confident I was going to pass and signed me off and saying my knowledge is good and so is my flying. He says the only thing is I usually say too much and that I can easily dig myself a hole on the oral. I opted for a discontinuance yesterday during the Oral because I felt like even though I could pass I just was not comfortable continuing with that particular DPE due to the way the questions were asked. I felt lost and cautious trying to give an answer without digging myself a hole as a direct blanket answer was not the answer that was looked for with little additional clarification given. I felt like if I continued with answering those type of questions without understanding the exact answer that was sought I would easily end up trying to find a different answer that would end up taking me for a very long oral. The weather was also trash during the early afternoon.

I fly a G1000 w/GFC700 C172
This is in the Tampa area.

After the discontinuance I was told by some that the DPE was known for long Orals and not being happy until a direct exact particularly phrased answer was given. So I am happy in a way opting for the discontinuance. Now I have the paper and I'm not sure who to schedule with as this DPE was sometimes used for other students and I was given the vague recommendation. Dr. Dan Greenwald who I used previously no longer gives Checkrides. Today I asked around from random people and was told both Chuck Brown and Gudi Davis are definitly one of the better DPE's to take checkrides with. I don't want to stay out of the airplane for long and my CFII wants to conference with the chief flight instructor on Monday for a plan of action.

I don't want to ruin any relations but I also don't feel that comfortable going back to that DPE. I really want some guidance and feedback because I'm a little conflicted in what to do.

I think you worry too much. Maybe the CFII primed you to react that way by telling you that stuff about digging yourself a hole. The goal is not to trick the DPE into passing you (and I assume that you're not trying to do that). The goal is to give him a chance to see if you know the material well enough to safely fly IFR. I have not found that being comfortable with the process of getting a rating has much relevance to achieving the goal.

Once you pass your checkride, THAT'S the time to worry, because there will still be a lot to learn about hazards and how to avoid or mitigate them.

 

[TommyG]

I would rather have been told I failed than tuck tail and run.

 

[Kritchlow]

I would rather have been told I failed than tuck tail and run.

No kidding?? If you thought you were treated unfairly on a checkride you'de rather fail than stand up for your rights?
I find that odd.

 

[TommyG]

No kidding?? If you thought you were treated unfairly on a checkride you'de rather fail than stand up for your rights?
I find that odd.

What is being treated unfairly? An examiner that wants actual answers? An examiner that doesn't guide you through to pass? I see nothing in the OP scenarios that was unfair on the examiners side.

 

[Kritchlow]

What is being treated unfairly? An examiner that wants actual answers? An examiner that doesn't guide you through to pass? I see nothing in the OP scenarios that was unfair on the examiners side.

No... reread. *If you thought* you were treated unfairly. A discontinuance is his right.

 

[Zeldman]

I am mistreated unfairly on every checkride.....

I mean my last checkride I am doing the arc to the ILS when the checkairman pulls an engine for me. I get set up for the single engine approach when he flips the A/P off saying you just lost the A/P. I get that all settled, intercept the localizer inbound, and at the outer marker I go to lower the first notch of flaps and he catches the handle saying you just lost your flaps. Well you dog you....anything else you want to fail on me?

At least he let me keep the landing gear....

 

[Kritchlow]

I am mistreated unfairly on every checkride.....

I mean my last checkride I am doing the arc to the ILS when the checkairman pulls an engine for me. I get set up for the single engine approach when he flips the A/P off saying you just lost the A/P. I get that all settled, intercept the localizer inbound, and at the outer marker I go to lower the first notch of flaps and he catches the handle saying you just lost your flaps. Well you dog you....anything else you want to fail on me?

At least he let me keep the landing gear....

Huh?? Is weed legal in your state?

 

[azure]

I am mistreated unfairly on every checkride.....

I mean my last checkride I am doing the arc to the ILS when the checkairman pulls an engine for me. I get set up for the single engine approach when he flips the A/P off saying you just lost the A/P. I get that all settled, intercept the localizer inbound, and at the outer marker I go to lower the first notch of flaps and he catches the handle saying you just lost your flaps. Well you dog you....anything else you want to fail on me?

At least he let me keep the landing gear....

"But I want you to know that I could have failed that too..."

Seriously, I think the OP just wasn't expecting that examiner's particular style of questioning in the oral. Every examiner is different, they all take slightly different approaches, (no pun) and I don't think most people would discontinue for that reason... but it's always the examinee's preprogative to discontinue. I don't buy the "what are you going to do if it goes to hell in IMC, discontinue?" argument as they are completely different situations. One involves natural forces, the other is purely a human interaction issue... and most importantly there are NO safety or life/limb consequences to discontinuing an oral.

I almost discontinued my IR checkride during the flight. The DPE was hounding me about my digital CO readout on my first approach because it was reading 2 ppm, a not infrequent finding in my plane while descending with the gear down. The DPE would not accept my reassurance that 2 ppm was no cause for concern and wanted to know an exact value above which he should be concerned. I told him it depended on the phase of flight and that only made him press harder. He wanted a full explanation. I was about 1000 feet above DA on the ILS and coming down the glideslope so I did NOT want the distraction right now and told him so. He threatened to take the controls and land the plane, and I had almost had it - NO ONE takes the controls in my plane without my permission, and he had almost no time in make and model. Finally I backtracked and gave him a random number just to shut him up (25 ppm I think it was) and that was that. The rest of the ride was interesting but in a good way, I ended up impressing him very favorably, but it was well on its way to getting ugly during the first 20 minutes or so.

Sometimes patience pays off, sometimes it doesn't. I won't criticize the OP's decision even if it wouldn't have been mine, under the circumstances.

 

[citizen5000]

He threatened to take the controls and land the plane, and I had almost had it - NO ONE takes the controls in my plane without my permission

You could have said you didn't know the answer but once on the ground would find it. But he was obviously pressing you to see how you would react to pressure. Which is more important than any answer you could give.

Btw. You can have 500ppm for half an hour and still be fine. Here is a chart: https://www.instrumart.com/assets/COintheCockpit.pdf

 

[steingar]

You could have said you didn't know the answer but once on the ground would find it. But he was obviously pressing you to see how you would react to pressure. Which is more important than any answer you could give.

Someone threatening to take the controls is on the verge of creating an emergency. That is a far cry from opening a window.

 

[azure]

You could have said you didn't know the answer but once on the ground would find it. But he was obviously pressing you to see how you would react to pressure. Which is more important than any answer you could give.

I tried that. Actually I told him I would give him a fuller explanation after finishing the approach. He said that wasn't soon enough as it was a safety of flight issue. No he wasn't just trying to see how I would react to pressure, he was genuinely afraid. During the debrief he explained that he had experienced CO poisoning at home due to a faulty furnace. I would have thought someone who had such a fear and flew in piston aircraft would have done his research and made sure he knew what levels were dangerous, but everyone is different.

 

[dtuuri]

From an examiner's perspective, one of the most frustrating things about giving a flight test is the way many applicants try to dodge the question out of insecurity. It's hard to explain, but instead of answering the question head-on they prevaricate in a time consuming way, causing the question to be rephrased over and over again. I don't know that this applies to the OP, but I immediately drew the comparison with my own experiences when reading the post. My experience was before the more recent "touchy, feely" way of asking open-ended questions. In my time, I'd set up a question with background info, then bang my question on their head that satisfied the PTS element I was tasked with evaluating. From my instrument oral plan of action, first question for 'obtaining weather information':

"Ok, say you're weathered-in somewhere and checked into a motel. You wake up in the morning and reach for the phone book [we didn't have cell phones and internet then]. Question: Where's the phone number listed for FSS and NWS?"
(Under US Government, DOT & Dept. of Commerce, respectively).​

Instead of admitting they never thought about it before, I'd have to answer THEIR question, "What do you mean by 'Where is it listed'?" and so on, ad infinitum. Now, maybe that's not a great question, I dunno, but I asked it because it seemed real-world and probably inadequately covered during training. I suspect a lot of examiners today ask questions designed to help the applicant think better and know more, not with the intent to flunk them if they can't answer perfectly.

dtuuri

 

[gsengle]

From an examiner's perspective, one of the most frustrating things about giving a flight test is the way many applicants try to dodge the question out of insecurity. It's hard to explain, but instead of answering the question head-on they prevaricate in a time consuming way, causing the question to be rephrased over and over again. I don't know that this applies to the OP, but I immediately drew the comparison with my own experiences when reading the post. My experience was before the more recent "touchy, feely" way of asking open-ended questions. In my time, I'd set up a question with background info, then bang my question on their head that satisfied the PTS element I was tasked with evaluating. From my instrument oral plan of action, first question for 'obtaining weather information':

"Ok, say you're weathered-in somewhere and checked into a motel. You wake up in the morning and reach for the phone book [we didn't have cell phones and internet then]. Question: Where's the phone number listed for FSS and NWS?"
(Under US Government, DOT & Dept. of Commerce, respectively).​

Instead of admitting they never thought about it before, I'd have to answer THEIR question, "What do you mean by 'Where is it listed'?" and so on, ad infinitum. Now, maybe that's not a great question, I dunno, but I asked it because it seemed real-world and probably inadequately covered during training. I suspect a lot of examiners today ask questions designed to help the applicant think better and know more, not with the intent to flunk them if they can't answer perfectly.

dtuuri

Bingo. My examiner on my commercial kept drilling into equipment questions down to certification data sheets... not to fail me when I ran out of knowledge, but because he thought it was something that I should know for the real world...


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[bflynn]

"But I want you to know that I could have failed that too..."

Seriously, I think the OP just wasn't expecting that examiner's particular style of questioning in the oral. Every examiner is different, they all take slightly different approaches, (no pun) and I don't think most people would discontinue for that reason... but it's always the examinee's preprogative to discontinue. I don't buy the "what are you going to do if it goes to hell in IMC, discontinue?" argument as they are completely different situations. One involves natural forces, the other is purely a human interaction issue... and most importantly there are NO safety or life/limb consequences to discontinuing an oral.

I almost discontinued my IR checkride during the flight. The DPE was hounding me about my digital CO readout on my first approach because it was reading 2 ppm, a not infrequent finding in my plane while descending with the gear down. The DPE would not accept my reassurance that 2 ppm was no cause for concern and wanted to know an exact value above which he should be concerned. I told him it depended on the phase of flight and that only made him press harder. He wanted a full explanation. I was about 1000 feet above DA on the ILS and coming down the glideslope so I did NOT want the distraction right now and told him so. He threatened to take the controls and land the plane, and I had almost had it - NO ONE takes the controls in my plane without my permission, and he had almost no time in make and model. Finally I backtracked and gave him a random number just to shut him up (25 ppm I think it was) and that was that. The rest of the ride was interesting but in a good way, I ended up impressing him very favorably, but it was well on its way to getting ugly during the first 20 minutes or so.

Sometimes patience pays off, sometimes it doesn't. I won't criticize the OP's decision even if it wouldn't have been mine, under the circumstances.

Realistic distraction?

I'm sure you've looked it up by now, but 2ppm of CO is a normal reading, it's considered a natural background reading in your house. 25ppm is a dose that a smoker might experience after a cigarette and 500 ppm over the course of many hours could be lethal. Actually grabbing the controls of the airplane without the pilot's ok would be exceedingly stupid, illegal and potentially dangerous, so I think the whole thing was just trying to torque you up and see how you run under real distractions and real stress. Sounds like it worked, maybe a little too well.

 

[Zeldman]

"But I want you to know that I could have failed that too..."

Seriously, I think the OP just wasn't expecting that examiner's particular style of questioning in the oral. Every examiner is different, they all take slightly different approaches, (no pun) and I don't think most people would discontinue for that reason... but it's always the examinee's preprogative to discontinue. I don't buy the "what are you going to do if it goes to hell in IMC, discontinue?" argument as they are completely different situations. One involves natural forces, the other is purely a human interaction issue... and most importantly there are NO safety or life/limb consequences to discontinuing an oral.

I would suspect there is a lot of truth on that.

 

[azure]

Realistic distraction?

I'm sure you've looked it up by now, but 2ppm of CO is a normal reading, it's considered a natural background reading in your house. 25ppm is a dose that a smoker might experience after a cigarette and 500 ppm over the course of many hours could be lethal. Actually grabbing the controls of the airplane without the pilot's ok would be exceedingly stupid, illegal and potentially dangerous, so I think the whole thing was just trying to torque you up and see how you run under real distractions and real stress. Sounds like it worked, maybe a little too well.

As I wrote, he explained that he had been a victim of CO poisoning. Of course he could have been spinning a yarn, but it was quite convincing. And consistent with how he behaved during the flight, which was as if it was a genuine safety of flight issue.

And yeah, if he was just testing how I would react under pressure, he carried it a little too far. I was pretty close to landing and putting him off the plane, and if he'd actually tried to take the controls, that's exactly what I would have done.

 

[KA550]

Think I will use this on my next checkride. If the check airman/examiner/inspector asks a question that is too hard, I will ask to stop and hope the questions will be easier the next time. Amazing.

Another example of training for the oral instead of knowing the material. Examiners should be randomly assigned by the FSDO instead of allowing CFI's to shop for the Santa Claus ones. Hopefully the examiner involved here briefs his/her peers on this instance so they are ready for the shopping that is going to happen. And we wonder why new pilots have such poor quality and ability.

 

[TommyG]

Think I will use this on my next checkride. If the check airman/examiner/inspector asks a question that is too hard, I will ask to stop and hope the questions will be easier the next time. Amazing.

Another example of training for the oral instead of knowing the material. Examiners should be randomly assigned by the FSDO instead of allowing CFI's to shop for the Santa Claus ones. Hopefully the examiner involved here briefs his/her peers on this instance so they are ready for the shopping that is going to happen. And we wonder why new pilots have such poor quality and ability.

The airlines should allow applicants try to pause the interview when they are faced with tough questions that they don't feel comfortable with.

 

[denverpilot]

I wasn't there and won't pick on the decision to discontinue. Just some thoughts.

I'll just share with the OP that before he chooses a different examiner, he'd better go look at the EXACT wording the examiner placed in IACRA for the reason for the discontinuance.

Reason: It's probably not bad, but however it is worded WILL be what another examiner reads first when they look at the paperwork and could set the tone for the next ride. It's worth a look.

Let's also get one notch more "real world" here. Examiners talk. To each other. If you were showing weakness in a particular area, the next examiner will know it.

That's all I've got. I think you may have let nerves get to you a little too much. Relax.

Examiners all have different personalities and styles and you may have very easily misinterpreted their reasoning for a particular line or style of questioning. Never assume the reason. Just answer and keep walking through the checkride one foot in front of the other. Answer the questions posed, don't make up reasons for the questions posed in your head, and just keep going.

You may have given too much thought to the instructor's comment that you might dig a hole. That's a bog-standard instructor comment to a student who keeps talking and might (under pressure) feel the need to make up something instead of saying "I don't know". Some people and personalities do that, and the instructor usually doesn't mean it strongly when they say you might dog a hole, what they're saying is, "Just answer the question, don't overthink it and don't answer questions not asked."

Don't worry, if you don't know something and the DPE thinks you need to know something, they'll prompt you gently most of the time. "Is there a way you *could* know? What resources might answer that question for you?"

Get it scheduled and get the new sign off and get it over with. You'll sit and stew over this if you don't and make yourself more worried for no good reason.

Not that I LIKE stories of long grueling orals, but hey, maybe it's your turn in the barrel. Walk into the next one confident that you know your stuff, you've studied a LOT of material for the Instrument, and if it takes four hours? Who cares? Think of it this way: You like this stuff, right? Could you sit around with your aviation buddies and talk IFR for four hours? Sure you could. So go talk IFR with the examiner for however long it takes to get the ride done. No big deal. Talking airplanes is fun. Relax.