Installed cost for GTN-650 and GTX-345?

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Baron62

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Baron62
How much should I budget to have a Garmin GTN-650 and GTX-345 (w/ADS-B in/out, no wass) installed in a piper archer? I would like to include GPSS to Century 21 and flightstream 210 for Foreflight integration of flight plan. I would have DME, KX155 and old transponder removed. I'm guessing $17K for HW alone plus install cost. Would this allow provide synthetic vision to foreflight for back-up AHRS? Any recommendations for avionics shops around New England area?

Thanks
 
I'm very happy with Islip Avionics at ISP


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I would suggest if $$ is a consideration that you put the 650 and 345 in and save the rest for another day. I just put a 750 and 345 in and am very happy with the capability gained. GPSS is great but you can live w/o it. If I had a DME that worked I would keep it if you have room in the panel. So far I am happy with the new equipment.
 
I have done many upgrades with Craig avionics in Concord NH. Bring the airplane up for a discussion and a quote.
 
Do you need now? Garmin rebate promo just ended. They will likely have another going at Oshkosh time. You should get a deal on a 650. May find a used one to save more.

I would get gpss installed. Great feature.

just say'n.
 
I just installed a GTN-650, GTX345 and Garmin G5. I traded in some older avionics and negotiated on the price to get it down to about $16k installed including the AST check. That's a pretty good deal, and not representative of what most will charge particularly in light of how many ADS-B Out installs are going nowadays. Also my GTN-650 was used, although only technically as it has been purchased and then immediately removed in favor of a 750 by the previous customer.

After the fact I bought and installed a Flightstream 510. (Installation consists of simply sliding the card into the GTN-650.). I would suggest with your installation that you do not need the Flightsream 210, and should get the 510 instead. You already will get AHRS info from the GTX345 so the 210 represents unnecessary bulk and installation cost as compared to the Flightstream 510.
 
I don't think a guy could buy a used radio from a dealer and still get the Garmin rebates but that's a good question to ask them.

The rebate form this year required buying at least two different radios from two different categories. You have to list the serial numbers of the units as well as sending a copy of the receipt from the dealer you bought them from. Must be purchased between set dates and the rebate mailed by a certain date of course.

Sarasota Avionucs seems to do a good job posting rebates on their website. I think Garmin on Facebook does too.
 
You can not get a Garmin rebate on a used gtn.
 
My Tiger is in the shop as we speak getting this exact same install done. Will you need to get a new indicator for the 650? I had to...getting a Garmin GI 106b. I was quoted 21K. I did send off for the garmin rebate ($1000) plus my avionics guy is gonna buy some of my used gear (king 155 and DME) so I should get another 1K for that, plus of course the FAA rebate...so in the end I should be out @ 18.5 AMU.

I was also thinking about putting in Gpss...but was told I wouldn't really save any labor time if I put it in now vs later....so I opted to wait for Gpss.
 
If a guy was putting that same radio stack into his home built he might save about $4000, assuming he buys and sells the tools to do it without losing any money, doesn't fry a radio and have to send it off for repair and other risks are averted. At the end he still has to hire a CRS to complete the transponder inspection which could be as little as $250 or in the neighborhood of $450.

But he could save money on the CDI, like the experimental version G5 with a GAD29 would be cheaper than the GI106B.

I don't think there is any equipment out there that will interface with the GTN series like the GTX345 so that's hard replace it with a cheaper product.
 
Cost me about 10K (ish) installed to get a GTN-650 put in. Could have added GPSS for another 2-3K. Why are you getting a GTX-345?

Could get a GTX-327 and get add ADS-B remote with the 650 for probably cheaper.
 
frfly172 said:
I have done many upgrades with Craig avionics in Concord NH. Bring the airplane up for a discussion and a quote.
Click to expand...

Craig is a good dude.

I'd also look at used WAAS GNSs, same GPS, better interface and lower price.

The flight stream and the ADSB, I'd wait on, tech is changing and being a early adopter is never a good idea, the GPSS is near manadatory if you're going to be sIngle pilot /G IMC.
 
James331 said:
Craig is a good dude.

I'd also look at used WAAS GNSs, same GPS, better interface and lower price.

The flight stream and the ADSB, I'd wait on, tech is changing and being a early adopter is never a good idea, the GPSS is near manadatory if you're going to be sIngle pilot /G IMC.
Click to expand...

Gotta disagree, it doesn't take much effort to turn a heading bug on a DG. GPSS makes you lazy. My STEC could hold radial or the lateral part of an RNAV approach without GPSS. The only thing its good for is following the purple line enroute, or maybe flying some waypoints from the IAF through the FAF. Depends on the plane too I guess, if you're flying at 200 + knots GPSS would be nice.
 
OP


I swag your install right at $22k all in. Get it done in Florida for no sales tax.
 
Caramon13 said:
Gotta disagree, it doesn't take much effort to turn a heading bug on a DG. GPSS makes you lazy. My STEC could hold radial or the lateral part of an RNAV approach without GPSS. The only thing its good for is following the purple line enroute, or maybe flying some waypoints from the IAF through the FAF. Depends on the plane too I guess, if you're flying at 200 + knots GPSS would be nice.
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Depends on the wind, also being able to have the plane fly a SID or STAR in busy airspace is a big bonus.
 
James331 said:
Depends on the wind, also being able to have the plane fly a SID or STAR in busy airspace is a big bonus.
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True, but the OP may never do that. 3K is a lot of money to spend on something you may never use, unless you live near an airport like that and forget to write NO STAR NO SID on your FP :).
 
I guess, but having a /G ship, an autopilot but no GPSS is kinda a half arse rig
 
James331 said:
I guess, but having a /G ship, an autopilot but no GPSS is kinda a half arse rig
Click to expand...


I take it you have no.idea how many GPS planes do not have GPSS?

I'll give you a hint......



Most.
 
How many working /G IMC ships have it, most, for the price, compared to the other silly junk light GA folks spend money on, between having no less than half a dozen of the latest iWhatevers, flavor of the month ADSB displaying on every screen, AoAs, giant flight bags, Garmin "pilot" watches, fancy tugs for 172 sized planes, cell phone switchable engine heaters......etc

If you're flying single pilot /G IMC, GPSS really is going to give you much more value than most of the other stuff above, frankly /G WAAS with a AP and GPSS is really the foundation for a real world single pilot IMC plane.
 
Meh I think I can manage to turn the heading bug for those occasional turns...


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the GPSS is real nice.....My Six didn't have it....the Bonanza does. It does make a difference. Could you do it without? certainly....but, it does help save brain cells for the missed approach.
 
I watched my buddies Cessna 172 GTN650 with autopilot GPSS execute a missed approach with a holding pattern. Just had to adjust power and elevator trim. It was pretty impressive to me.
 
Caramon13 said:
Cost me about 10K (ish) installed to get a GTN-650 put in. Could have added GPSS for another 2-3K. Why are you getting a GTX-345?

Could get a GTX-327 and get add ADS-B remote with the 650 for probably cheaper.
Click to expand...

That seems like a great price for a GTN-650 installed. Better than I have seen. I like the gtx-345 becasue it integrates with both the GTN-650 (via bus) and Foreflight (via bluetooth). On Foreflight I would end up with a back-up AHRS/synthetic vision plus weather plus traffic.
 
frfly172 said:
I have done many upgrades with Craig avionics in Concord NH. Bring the airplane up for a discussion and a quote.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I will definitely visit them for a quote. I find businesses in NH to be very friendly and resonably priced.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Do you need now? Garmin rebate promo just ended. They will likely have another going at Oshkosh time. You should get a deal on a 650. May find a used one to save more.

I would get gpss installed. Great feature.

just say'n.
Click to expand...

I am in no hurry, so I will be watching for the promotions. I think GPSS is a great feature too.
 
gsengle said:
I'm very happy with Islip Avionics at ISP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't find anything on Long Island to be a good deal. My friends who live on LI also feel the same. :)
 
gsengle said:
Meh I think I can manage to turn the heading bug for those occasional turns...


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Click to expand...

For approaches it will be more like...
Turn heading bug....
Winds pushing you off course, turn heading bug again...
Opps, too much, adjust again...
Now we're crossing waypt, turn again....
Crossing FAF, turn, turn, turn (reminds me of a song...) all while dropping gear, configuring for landing, if LPV, keeping the plane on the GS.
With all the turning, you might as well just manually fly it.

Not to mention holds, GTN will do the holds completely hands off with GPSS.

If flying real IMC, with winds changing with altitude and tolerances with a few feet...GPSS is definitely more than just a luxury.
 
teejayevans said:
For approaches it will be more like...
Turn heading bug....
Winds pushing you off course, turn heading bug again...
Opps, too much, adjust again...
Now we're crossing waypt, turn again....
Crossing FAF, turn, turn, turn (reminds me of a song...) all while dropping gear, configuring for landing, if LPV, keeping the plane on the GS.
With all the turning, you might as well just manually fly it.

Not to mention holds, GTN will do the holds completely hands off with GPSS.

If flying real IMC, with winds changing with altitude and tolerances with a few feet...GPSS is definitely more than just a luxury.
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Are you suggesting that without GPSS an autopilot can't fly a coupled approach?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Without GPSS it may not do the transitions.....the holds and procedure turns.
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Correct. He was talking about an approach with no GPSS and suggesting you'd be constantly turning the heading bug crossing the FAF and trying to keep the plane on the GS. All of which the AP would be doing independent of GPSS.

I agree GPSS is nice for holds and procedure turns (of which I rarely do in a radar environment) but I agree with @gsengle that it's not a lot of over-taxing twisting in the real world.
 
Try flying a complex sid/star, or going into a hold so you can reconfigure and pull plates for another approach, having the auto pilot act like a autopilot and fly the plane for you, in the working world we call it autopilot in lieu of a SIC, is the whole point of having a AP in the first place, having to turn knobs and all that takes the point out of it.
 
Radar Contact said:
Are you suggesting that without GPSS an autopilot can't fly a coupled approach?
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For a GPS approach yes. Using the heading bug is just using the AP to steer, it's not coupled.
GPSS means it's hands off except for vertical adjustments.
if you do an ILS approach, you can be coupled and don't need GPS except for guidance, but given the popularity of LPV approaches, it's a nice feature to have.
 
Radar Contact said:
Correct. He was talking about an approach with no GPSS and suggesting you'd be constantly turning the heading bug crossing the FAF and trying to keep the plane on the GS. All of which the AP would be doing independent of GPSS.
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Glide slope is vertical, GPSS is steering (horizontal), you still have to control the descent.
How would the AP independently do anything if it's in heading mode?
You can try this on PC simulator, be sure to configured it for some cross winds like 15G25, as you get closer you will end up fiddling with the heading bug to keep it on course.
 
teejayevans said:
Glide slope is vertical, GPSS is steering (horizontal), you still have to control the descent.
How would the AP independently do anything if it's in heading mode?
You can try this on PC simulator, be sure to configured it for some cross winds like 15G25, as you get closer you will end up fiddling with the heading bug to keep it on course.
Click to expand...
I guess I missed the part about someone with an AP flying an ILS/LPV on heading mode (no one would do this). The STEC I fly (in a plane, I don't have a sim) without GPSS does a fine job of flying both ILS and LPV approaches (vertical and lateral).
 
also....GPSS will intercept a course greater than 20 degrees.

It just makes flying much easier....an STec 60-2 with GPSS is the bomb. :D
 
teejayevans said:
For a GPS approach yes. Using the heading bug is just using the AP to steer, it's not coupled.
GPSS means it's hands off except for vertical adjustments.
if you do an ILS approach, you can be coupled and don't need GPS except for guidance, but given the popularity of LPV approaches, it's a nice feature to have.
Click to expand...

No, you do not need GPSS for your autopilot to fly a coupled approach, either ILS, LPV, LNAV, LNAV/VNAV, or LNAV+V. Nor do you need it to track courses. Even enroute my 50 year old autopilot will track a course within 0.1 miles, and upon reaching a station or waypoint at which the airway or course bends, automatically turn to the new course. You are mistaking the accuracy and precision of GPSS, which is certainly desirable, for basic autopilot lateral and vertical capability. The other advantage of GPSS is the ability to fly holds and course reversals without any (or minimal) user input, which our old legacy APs can't do. That still involves mode changes and manipulating the heading bug and OBS.
 
Ryan F. said:
No, you do not need GPSS for your autopilot to fly a coupled approach, either ILS, LPV, LNAV, LNAV/VNAV, or LNAV+V. Nor do you need it to track courses. Even enroute my 50 year old autopilot will track a course within 0.1 miles, and upon reaching a station or waypoint at which the airway or course bends, automatically turn to the new course. You are mistaking the accuracy and precision of GPSS, which is certainly desirable, for basic autopilot lateral and vertical capability. The other advantage of GPSS is the ability to fly holds and course reversals without any (or minimal) user input, which our old legacy APs can't do. That still involves mode changes and manipulating the heading bug and OBS.
Click to expand...

How does your AP automatically turn to next waypt without GPSS? I think you are confusing WAAS with GPSS. GPSS is GPS steering and WAAS improves GPS accuracy. Some APs have GPSS as a separate box, Aspens provides this function and I guess newer APs have it built in.
 
If the CDI is slaved to GPS, will the AP not follow? GPSS performs same function without referencing the indicator, eliminates the "slop" out of the equation.
 
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teejayevans said:
How does your AP automatically turn to next waypt without GPSS? I think you are confusing WAAS with GPSS. GPSS is GPS steering and WAAS improves GPS accuracy. Some APs have GPSS as a separate box, Aspens provides this function and I guess newer APs have it built in.
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I'm not confusing anything. You're the one who is confused. I have a Century Altimatic III. It is literally a 50 -- almost 51 -- year old autopilot. It senses voltage from the CDI to turn either left or right to track a course. It worked that way with my KLN-94 (non-WAAS) and when I upgraded to the GTN-650 (WAAS) it did the same thing. The AP likes to have "help" in the form of wind correction from the heading bug which needs to be adjusted from time to time, but not each and every time the AP turns to a new course; and if the user is lazy and ignores this input the AP eventually brackets and settles on the correct new course. This is old school autopilot stuff; they're "needle watchers" and in the case of my Altimatic III it watches the attitude as well; it's not a rate-based system. It has nothing to do with WAAS or GPSS yet it can track courses, fly a localizer, or LNAV approach just fine. My particular Altimatic III does not have vertical guidance but others do and those APs can add LPV/ILS approaches to their repertoire.

GPSS is a very precise and much better integration between the autopilot and the GPS. Instead of measuring voltages it works electronically and provides for smoother and more precise course guidance. As I stated above it also allows holds, procedure turns, course reversals, FMS course missed approaches, etc. to be flown if directed by a capable GPS/FMS. That's the difference between GPSS and legacy autopilot interfaces. GPSS is certainly an enhancement, but your suggestion that older autopilots are incapable of basic enroute and approach functionality as described is simply erroneous.
 
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