Im coming up on 2 years as a CFI and...

Princesspilot206

Princesspilot206

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Princesspilot
Most of my students have been great, but others lack motivation. How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
 
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You are voicing what is likely the most common CFI / student complaint.

The lower end students I have are business owners. They arrive for a lesson and before they are at their car leaving they are solving business rated problems and not giving flying a second thought until the next lesson.

The higher end is people with experiance being a high learner such as MDs. They are accustomed to studying and do so very effectively.

There is another group who don’t possess study skills or motivation to do so.

All we can do as CFIs is accurately communicate the requirements and standards, provide guidance for study topics, and periodically test knowledge so the student can accurately assess their success/deficiencies.
 
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Princesspilot206 said:
Most of my students have been great, but others lack motivation. How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
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Sounds like all of my college students.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Most of my students have been great, but others lack motivation. How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
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Welcome to my world.

I’m retiring at the end of the year, but since my official date is January 30, 2027, I’m still responsible for the midyear and year-end evaluations.

Last week, I had a candid conversation with someone on my team. I explained that while they were doing enough to get by, they were not demonstrating the initiative needed to excel in the role. Without that initiative, they were unlikely to exceed expectations.... or earn at the level of those who consistently take ownership and perform at a higher level.

They came in Monday, thanked me for being honest, asked whether there were other positions available, and, when the answer was no, they resigned.

My point is that sometimes you have to have the direct conversation. Whether it is a hobby or a profession such as flying is, success requires self-initiative. You can provide guidance, training, and encouragement, but you cannot supply someone’s motivation for them, unless they are happy handing you their hard earned money.
 
I have a tough time understanding how someone decides to learn how to fly without the excitement and magic that IMO should provide a new student with a huge dose of motivation, and a strong desire to learn.

Perhaps the lazy, lackluster or unmotivated student is learning to fly because they're being pushed to keep someone else happy, and not being true to themselves?
 
Rick A said:
I have a tough time understanding how someone decides to learn how to fly without the excitement and magic that IMO should provide a new student with a huge dose of motivation, and a strong desire to learn.

Perhaps the lazy, lackluster or unmotivated student is learning to fly because they're being pushed to keep someone else happy, and not being true to themselves?
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Some people don't expect it to be difficult. They think it will be like boating.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Most of my students have been great, but others lack motivation. How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
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I tell them that their outcome is on them. They don’t wanna do anything between lessons, it’s gonna cost them more time and money in the backend. Remember, you are a CFI, you are not obligated to teach them, especially is they aren’t taking it seriously. I had one student that was a grown frat boy, all he cared about was getting to happy hour on Friday. I told him I will not fly on Friday afternoons with him, because all he cared about was being on the ground in time for happy hour. After a good amount of hours, never heard from him again.
 
dmspilot said:
Some people don't expect it to be difficult. They think it will be like boating.
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Makes sense. In that case they should give it right up and save some money. If they're not sharp enough to figure out continuing with lessons isn't going to get any easier, don't think I'd enjoy sharing airspace with them...
 
Princesspilot206 said:
How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
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As a member of "this newer generation," I have to say that I rather enjoy the fact that so many are not self-starters...

and need constant "attaboys... ."

Especially when competing against them for classes, grades, internships, slots at the club, and jobs. :cool:
 
Rick A said:
I have a tough time understanding how someone decides to learn how to fly without the excitement and magic that IMO should provide a new student with a huge dose of motivation, and a strong desire to learn.

Perhaps the lazy, lackluster or unmotivated student is learning to fly because they're being pushed to keep someone else happy, and not being true to themselves?
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I believe almost all new students recently have been chasing the airline jobs. Get your licensing get your 1500 hours and your ATP and get hired immediately.

The person that starts pilot training simply to fly then later buy an aircraft for personal use is over for the most part.

New aircraft prices are the cause of this.
I just can’t get excited about buying a 50 year old plane nowadays that I flew 45 years ago that costs 5 times as much as it did then.
 
I’ve got a lot of responsibilities as a CFI. I don’t think somehow creating motivation is one of those. I try very hard to make every lesson a safe and enjoyable learning experience. Beyond that it’s got to come from the student.
 
bonefishpete said:
I believe almost all new students recently have been chasing the airline jobs. Get your licensing get your 1500 hours and your ATP and get hired immediately.
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I think that particular goldmine has been exhausted and there are some people beginning to understand the cyclic nature of airline hiring. I've been privy to more than one person exclaiming that they got to 1500 hours and wondering why they're not getting actively headhunted by the airlines.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
Most of my students have been great, but others lack motivation. How do you work with this newer generation that seems to constantly need nudging instead of taking initiative for themselves?
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One of the difficulties that many educators (of adults) have across the board is the definition of their role in the process. Your job is to explain the concepts to the best of your ability, find ways of presenting the same information from different angles if necessary, and to find answers to questions if you don't know them. All you can do is offer the opportinity to learn. The rest is up to them. If they don't avail themselves of the opportunity, that's on them, not you.
(Oh, and keep them from driving the plane into the ground while you're at it.)
 
Rick A said:
I have a tough time understanding how someone decides to learn how to fly without the excitement and magic that IMO should provide a new student with a huge dose of motivation, and a strong desire to learn.

Perhaps the lazy, lackluster or unmotivated student is learning to fly because they're being pushed to keep someone else happy, and not being true to themselves?
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You are assuming most students find flying exciting and magical vs just enjoyable or the initial excitement and magic doesn’t wain when they figure out there is a lot of study involved.
 
Flying isn't for everyone. As a freelance Part 61 CFI, I have the option of dropping students, and I have exercised that option here and there, after unsuccessful attempts to communicate and get alignment on what is required to become a safe and proficient pilot.
 
I am blessed to normally have bright, motivated students and trainees whom I instruct. When they don't seem interested in learning, I struggle. Occasionally we have to say-there's a problem here, this person doesn't belong here, because they aren't meeting our standards.

Occasionally of that minority, I learn that there's something "out of the ordinary" going on in their lives. Many of those benefit from an honest conversation, time off, or an accommodation. Some are unaware that they're lacking, and benefit from being told that directly. The latter are a minority-but it's rewarding and encouraging when you experience that "recovery" in their learning path.
 
I have always said that being a part time flight instructor is the best job in the world. If you’re sharp, motivated, and fun to fly with, sure, I’ll take you on as a student. If you’re a pain in the ass, go fly with one of the young full timers who needs to make rent. :)
 
Martin Pauly said:
Flying isn't for everyone. As a freelance Part 61 CFI, I have the option of dropping students, and I have exercised that option here and there, after unsuccessful attempts to communicate and get alignment on what is required to become a safe and proficient pilot.
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Martin, sorry that phrase "flying isn't for everyone" hits a nerve because my very first discovery flight instructor from 30 years ago made that remark because I was asking too many technical questions (I was a PhD candidate in engineering, so asking technical questions was my way of showing people that I care). The fact that I still remember it today says something. Luckily, his remark only delayed my pursuit by about 6 months. I've been a CFII for 26 years.

I would like to think that anyone can master flying, including those with disabilities - they just need to direct their focus and commitment to learning the nuts and bolts of aviation.Taking a dual flight while focused on the Friday happy hour, like another poster mentioned, is not conducive to learning. That person is not inherently incapable of mastering aviation - its just that they choose to focus on something else instead.
 
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If they arent willing to do things on their own without your nudigng them now, they wont do them after you are gone and maybe they shouldn't be flying.
 
sarangan said:
I would like to think that anyone can master flying
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IMO this is not true. There are many people who lack the attributes necessary to be a pilot. The lucky ones get screened out during the process. The unfortunate ones squeak through and eventually wind up in an NTSB mishap report with cause of Pilot Error.
 
sarangan said:
Martin, sorry that phrase "flying isn't for everyone" hits a nerve because my very first discovery flight instructor from 30 years ago made that remark because I was asking too many technical questions (I was a PhD candidate in engineering, so asking technical questions was my way of showing people that I care). The fact that I still remember it today says something. Luckily, his remark only delayed my pursuit by about 6 months. I've been a CFII for 26 years.

I would like to think that anyone can master flying, including those with disabilities - they just need to direct their focus and commitment to learning the nuts and bolts of aviation.Taking a dual flight while focused on the Friday happy hour, like another poster mentioned, is not conducive to learning. That person is wa not inherently incapable of mastering aviation - its just that they choose to focus on something else instead.
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Keep in mind that 1, there’s a difference between an instructor saying “flying isn’t for everyone” based on a first impression and saying it based on significant experience as an instructor with a particular student, and 2, there’s a difference between “Flying isn’t for everyone” and not being able to “master flying.” As you indicated, there are definitely people who choose not to master flying, and flying isn’t for them.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Really? I am that guy, precisely.
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The irony. You're proving his point. Ever heard "the exception proves the rule"? You're that guy too.

You're merely overpresented in POA; but POA isn't the real ramp. I'd say even facebook and reddit have a much more realistic sample of what things are like in this recreational space, as it's a much wider demographic across all spectrums. POA is the type of silo who thinks potemkin villages like OSH are an accurate barometer of the aviation economy, for instance.
 
TommyG said:
Remember, you are a CFI, you are not obligated to teach them
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Not sure if this is a typo or just not worded succinctly. But it IS your job, as a CFI is actually TO TEACH. Its what the 'I' stands for.

<rant> Most (95%+CFIs) are trash. You take an FAA course on 'FOI' and think you are now a teacher. You are not. Most young CFIs don't have a darn clue about anything as they have been 'in the system' for so long and hang around other garbage CFI wannabe's. Most likely they never even developed the course they are teaching but bought it, copied it, or had it handed to them by the boss. CFIs are not held accountable for drop outs, only checkride failures. Add in that most students are younger and dumber than the CFIs. Students wierdly look up to CFIs instead of holding them accountable for the product the are paying for. If I had a nickle for every time one of my 8(!) CFIs asked me 'what do you want to do today' I could own my own flight school.</rant> (but I can go on for way longer... trust me on this. The CFI system is trash, most CFIs are trash and I have the proof to back it up).

OPs problem is that they have no idea HOW to teach. They are regurgitating. No, the CFI by the FAA is not going to make you an instructor, it only gives you legal permission to sign logbooks.

And don't use the 'students are not motivated' lie. CFIs are not motivated to teach becasue they are looking 10000% at 1500hours for an airline job. Not one CFI is building the skills for instructing becuse in 2-3 years they will not be. Being a CFI is rung on the ladder. Its a crappy one that all CFIs hate but there are very few other ways to get hours and eat.

The cockpit is a HORRIBLE classroom. All maneuvers should be discussed on the ground in the cockpit before the flight. aka chair fly and introduce new skills the student.. becuase you know... TEACHING.
If the student shows up 'unprepared' suck it up. Your job is to ensure that they have the knowledge. Just becuase you have to teach it instead of them reading it at home doesn't mean you roll your eyes and sigh. You get to teaching. Remember that 'I' part of CFI?

I will admit that some students are not 100% invested in the program. That's fine. You are not responsible for thier time or motivation. CFIs ARE responsible for delivering the paid for instruction.
 
sarangan said:
I would like to think that anyone can master flying
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What does 'master' flying mean? That's a subjective answer to something with objective criteria.

Learning to fly to a level of competency takes motivation, aptitude, a good CFI and money. Not every student has all 4. Most CFIs are trash and that's why there is a historical 80%+ drop out rate.
 
pfarber said:
Learning to fly to a level of competency takes motivation, aptitude, a good CFI and money. Not every student has all 4. Most CFIs are trash and that's why there is a historical 80%+ drop out rate.
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You make some good points, but I don't think you can blame the dropout rate completely on poor CFIs. Here are just a few things to consider:

1) Flying is expensive. For most people in a Part 61 program, the funding is secondary to their primary lifestyle. This leads to a lot of ways to fall out of the program - job loss, spousal demands, relocation, or just plain poor budgeting. Let's be honest - every single person who has ever decided to get pilot training has underestimated the total cost. For some, it's not big deal, but for some it's the exit ramp.

2) Medical. Are there stats on how many student pilots are deferred or denied a medical each year? How many people start training, then find out that they can't get a class 3? Beyond that, how many develop a medical issue partway through?

3) As with all endeavors, some people will start and then just decide it's not for them. OK, no big deal.

4) Some people expect that it will be like getting a driver's license or a boating license. When they find out what it's really going to take, they may or may not believe it's worth the effort - or might even determine that they probably cannot successfully achieve a PPL.

Are there bad CFIs? Absolutely. Are they all bad? Absolutely not.
 
pfarber said:
What does 'master' flying mean? That's a subjective answer to something with objective criteria.

Learning to fly to a level of competency takes motivation, aptitude, a good CFI and money. Not every student has all 4. Most CFIs are trash and that's why there is a historical 80%+ drop out rate.
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From discussion with numerous highly experienced 10+ and 20+ year veteran CFIs, the dropout rate is consistent and not due to "bad instructors." A good motivated student can overcome a bad instructor. A good instructor can't overcome a bad student. The end.
 
pfarber said:
Not sure if this is a typo or just not worded succinctly. But it IS your job, as a CFI is actually TO TEACH. Its what the 'I' stands for.

<rant> Most (95%+CFIs) are trash. You take an FAA course on 'FOI' and think you are now a teacher. You are not. Most young CFIs don't have a darn clue about anything as they have been 'in the system' for so long and hang around other garbage CFI wannabe's. Most likely they never even developed the course they are teaching but bought it, copied it, or had it handed to them by the boss. CFIs are not held accountable for drop outs, only checkride failures. Add in that most students are younger and dumber than the CFIs. Students wierdly look up to CFIs instead of holding them accountable for the product the are paying for. If I had a nickle for every time one of my 8(!) CFIs asked me 'what do you want to do today' I could own my own flight school.</rant> (but I can go on for way longer... trust me on this. The CFI system is trash, most CFIs are trash and I have the proof to back it up).

OPs problem is that they have no idea HOW to teach. They are regurgitating. No, the CFI by the FAA is not going to make you an instructor, it only gives you legal permission to sign logbooks.

And don't use the 'students are not motivated' lie. CFIs are not motivated to teach becasue they are looking 10000% at 1500hours for an airline job. Not one CFI is building the skills for instructing becuse in 2-3 years they will not be. Being a CFI is rung on the ladder. Its a crappy one that all CFIs hate but there are very few other ways to get hours and eat.

The cockpit is a HORRIBLE classroom. All maneuvers should be discussed on the ground in the cockpit before the flight. aka chair fly and introduce new skills the student.. becuase you know... TEACHING.
If the student shows up 'unprepared' suck it up. Your job is to ensure that they have the knowledge. Just becuase you have to teach it instead of them reading it at home doesn't mean you roll your eyes and sigh. You get to teaching. Remember that 'I' part of CFI?

I will admit that some students are not 100% invested in the program. That's fine. You are not responsible for thier time or motivation. CFIs ARE responsible for delivering the paid for instruction.
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Sorry, but as a CFI you can drop a student. As I stated, you are not obligated to stick with them. Whether, it’s motivation, bad attitude, dangerous behaviors, or just doesn’t match. A CFI isn’t a doctor that took an oath to help people. I have been teaching for 30 years, and I have never felt bad about dropping a student. I would rather put my energy into a student that yields a positive experience.
 
pfarber said:
Not sure if this is a typo or just not worded succinctly. But it IS your job, as a CFI is actually TO TEACH. Its what the 'I' stands for.

<rant> Most (95%+CFIs) are trash. You take an FAA course on 'FOI' and think you are now a teacher. You are not. Most young CFIs don't have a darn clue about anything as they have been 'in the system' for so long and hang around other garbage CFI wannabe's. Most likely they never even developed the course they are teaching but bought it, copied it, or had it handed to them by the boss. CFIs are not held accountable for drop outs, only checkride failures. Add in that most students are younger and dumber than the CFIs. Students wierdly look up to CFIs instead of holding them accountable for the product the are paying for. If I had a nickle for every time one of my 8(!) CFIs asked me 'what do you want to do today' I could own my own flight school.</rant> (but I can go on for way longer... trust me on this. The CFI system is trash, most CFIs are trash and I have the proof to back it up).

OPs problem is that they have no idea HOW to teach. They are regurgitating. No, the CFI by the FAA is not going to make you an instructor, it only gives you legal permission to sign logbooks.

And don't use the 'students are not motivated' lie. CFIs are not motivated to teach becasue they are looking 10000% at 1500hours for an airline job. Not one CFI is building the skills for instructing becuse in 2-3 years they will not be. Being a CFI is rung on the ladder. Its a crappy one that all CFIs hate but there are very few other ways to get hours and eat.

The cockpit is a HORRIBLE classroom. All maneuvers should be discussed on the ground in the cockpit before the flight. aka chair fly and introduce new skills the student.. becuase you know... TEACHING.
If the student shows up 'unprepared' suck it up. Your job is to ensure that they have the knowledge. Just becuase you have to teach it instead of them reading it at home doesn't mean you roll your eyes and sigh. You get to teaching. Remember that 'I' part of CFI?

I will admit that some students are not 100% invested in the program. That's fine. You are not responsible for thier time or motivation. CFIs ARE responsible for delivering the paid for instruction.
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Has it occurred to you that the reason you can’t find anyone in the world who is competent has nothing to do with everyone else in the world?
 
Weird. I always thought the CFI's role in the air was primarily a safety blanket and maybe an occasional demo maker. Sure, on the ground, if the student is properly studying and interacting with questions and examples with the CFI there's classical "teaching" or "teacher-student" interaction going on.

But in the sky, in the end, the student has to feel out the airplane, its configurations, and the combinations of control inputs that will make it do what you want. The instructor, in my day anyhow, was there to provide boundary conditions and perhaps small corrections and inputs to smooth things out and once in a while, to recover from a poor maneuver, but that's usually only in the landing flare. You are always three mistakes high otherwise and the student can pretty much figure it out.

Of course sometimes having something demo'd you helps a bit, but if you can't feel the airplane is uncoordinated or gaining or losing altitude, no amount of "watch me" is going to help. Only practice, and some sadly just never get it. Doesn't mean they won't pass a checkride, they still just don't get the flow and beauty of making the airplane do what they want it to.

The most important lesson of leaning how to fly is to do very little - the airplane already knows how to fly and your role as a pilot is to make it, via control inputs, go where you want it to go in any of the three dimensions. And for heaven's sake, learn how to trim.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Keep in mind that 1, there’s a difference between an instructor saying “flying isn’t for everyone” based on a first impression and saying it based on significant experience as an instructor with a particular student, and 2, there’s a difference between “Flying isn’t for everyone” and not being able to “master flying.” As you indicated, there are definitely people who choose not to master flying, and flying isn’t for them.
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If the statement is based on a prolonged experience with a student, then perhaps it can have some truth. However, it still implies some level of superiority over others. It implies that it is an intrinsically difficult skill and requires a high level of intellectual and physical ability. Mastering flight requires only an average level of intellectual and physical ability. Someone who didn't complete highschool can easily pass the written and oral. Someone who can't do 10 pushups can easily learn to operate an airplane. I would agree more, if we instead say, mastering flight requires patience, diligence and practice. Every human is capable of these traits. Then it becomes their choice whether they want to direct those traits towards aviation. As instructors, it is our duty to teach, encourage, and cultivate the next generation - not shut them down as incapable weaklings.
 
sarangan said:
If the statement is based on a prolonged experience with a student, then perhaps it can have some truth. However, it still implies some level of superiority over others. It implies that it is an intrinsically difficult skill and requires a high level of intellectual and physical ability. Mastering flight requires only an average level of intellectual and physical ability. Someone who didn't complete highschool can easily pass the written and oral. Someone who can't do 10 pushups can easily learn to operate an airplane. I would agree more, if we instead say, mastering flight requires patience, diligence and practice. Every human is capable of these traits. Then it becomes their choice whether they want to direct those traits towards aviation. As instructors, it is our duty to teach, encourage, and cultivate the next generation - not shut them down as incapable weaklings.
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I'm going to disagree with this.

There are plenty of people who don't have the situational awareness and/or hand-eye coordination to drive a car safely, much less fly an airplane.

I've watched intelligent, apparently capable people wash out when trying to learn to drive a race car, because they simply can't get their inputs to align with what the car is doing at the rate and precision required to approach a racing pace. These are people who spent a lot of money and effort to get to the point of taking a driving school to get a license, and just plain didn't have it. In a trainer car, that's maybe 120 MPH, working in two dimensions. If they can't do that, there is simply no way that they're going to be able to manage an airplane.

It's not superhuman by any stretch, but it's also not something that just anyone can do. As with cars, nearly everyone thinks that they could do it, but that's more an effect of Dunning-Kruger than it is reality.
 
sarangan said:
If the statement is based on a prolonged experience with a student, then perhaps it can have some truth. However, it still implies some level of superiority over others. It implies that it is an intrinsically difficult skill and requires a high level of intellectual and physical ability. Mastering flight requires only an average level of intellectual and physical ability. Someone who didn't complete highschool can easily pass the written and oral. Someone who can't do 10 pushups can easily learn to operate an airplane. I would agree more, if we instead say, mastering flight requires patience, diligence and practice. Every human is capable of these traits. Then it becomes their choice whether they want to direct those traits towards aviation. As instructors, it is our duty to teach, encourage, and cultivate the next generation - not shut them down as incapable weaklings.
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So in summary, we agree. Mastering flight is not difficult, but flying may not be for someone who consistently chooses not to do so.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I'm going to disagree with this.

There are plenty of people who don't have the situational awareness and/or hand-eye coordination to drive a car safely, much less fly an airplane.

I've watched intelligent, apparently capable people wash out when trying to learn to drive a race car, because they simply can't get their inputs to align with what the car is doing at the rate and precision required to approach a racing pace. These are people who spent a lot of money and effort to get to the point of taking a driving school to get a license, and just plain didn't have it. In a trainer car, that's maybe 120 MPH, working in two dimensions. If they can't do that, there is simply no way that they're going to be able to manage an airplane.

It's not superhuman by any stretch, but it's also not something that just anyone can do. As with cars, nearly everyone thinks that they could do it, but that's more an effect of Dunning-Kruger than it is reality.
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Navigation and situational awareness is actually a lot easier in the air than on the ground. I've had friends say, "since you fly an airplane, driving in downtown should be a piece of cake, no?". I had to say no, those are two very different things. I can precisely fly an instrument approach to minimums with one engine out, but I do have significant challenges when I take the wrong exit and need to figure out how to get back, especially in cities where the streets are not in a grid pattern.

Fear of heights is another thing. I can't easily get myself on the roof. But I can fly aerobatic airplanes. No fear there.
 
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