IFR Non-Towered Airport Departure Question

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
From a newbie IFR pilot...

When departing IFR from a non-towered airport, if ForeFlight / AFD list a departure frequency, does that mean in theory I should be able to get clearance on the ground on that frequency? Or does it mean maybe I can, and maybe I will have to get clearance on that frequency after take-off, before entering Class E airspace?

Yes I know I can also call for clearance. But sometimes the clearance time window is too short for me to set up all the avionics and do my run-up.

I heard also they are working on clearance via an App.

Any non-towered IFR departure wisdom for this newbie?
 
If there's a remote transceiver on the field you can. Most likely you'll have to call for a clearance. They'll give the clearance to you and a void time, meaning you have to be airborne by a certain time or the clearance is cancelled. Then you get another one. If VMC you can take off and get it in the air.
 
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I dunno what the requirements are for publishing those frequencies. As far as the 'window' thing goes, just tell them when you request the clearance that you'll need x minutes after getting it before being ready to go.
 
in theory yes, but you can also call up the approach facility and get your clearance on the phone. in addition check to see if the airport utilizes a rco/gco, which is found in the afd err chart supplement.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
From a newbie IFR pilot...

When departing IFR from a non-towered airport, if ForeFlight / AFD list a departure frequency, does that mean in theory I should be able to get clearance on the ground on that frequency? Or does it mean maybe I can, and maybe I will have to get clearance on that frequency after take-off, before entering Class E airspace?
Click to expand...
Departing in IMC class G and expecting to pick-up a clearance before entering class E is a good way to get violated, either physically or administratively...

If it is VMC, without a low ceiling then picking up your clearance in the air usually isn’t a problem but there can be delays.
 
Ask the locals for the best location on the airport ,to pick up a clearance. You can also call for your clearance on a cell phone . If your picking it up in the air they’re going to tell you to stay VFR.
 
Maybe you can reach the frequency from the ground. Obviously if conditions are vfr you can try for the pop up ifr request. Why not file and get a window that gives you time to do your normal start routine?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 
As noted, "it depends". The airport I've flown out of that lacks a tower is out of reach of radio to Seattle Center. I've asked Horizon Airlines pilots and they have the same problem. Fortunately, any time I've flown out of KPUW IFR it has been VMC, so I just take off and pick up the clearance once airborne. I've already filed, so it's just a matter of opening the clearance. YMMV.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
From a newbie IFR pilot...

When departing IFR from a non-towered airport, if ForeFlight / AFD list a departure frequency, does that mean in theory I should be able to get clearance on the ground on that frequency? Or does it mean maybe I can, and maybe I will have to get clearance on that frequency after take-off, before entering Class E airspace?
Click to expand...
I think this repeats what everyone else has said. I'm not sure of the difference between "in theory" and "maybe," so I'll make up my own difference.

The biggest "maybe" is being able to reach them on the ground. If you can, "in theory," calling from the ground when you are ready to go is no different than taking off VFR and calling from the air...

There is a difference, though. Calling from the ground, even #1 for departure, at least suggests you will want to switch back to the CTAF momentarily. I don't know if this is universal, but the one time I called ATC directly (it was Kansas City Center and I was on the ground at Liberal) they still gave me a void time clearance. But if all you are tying too do makes sure you have enough time it should work for you at least as well as telephoning ATC directly, and much better than the relay back an forth of calling 800WXBRIEF.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think this repeats what everyone else has said. I'm not sure of the difference between "in theory" and "maybe," so I'll make up my own difference.

The biggest "maybe" is being able to reach them on the ground. If you can, "in theory," calling from the ground when you are ready to go is no different than taking off VFR and calling from the air...

There is a difference, though. Calling from the ground, even #1 for departure, at least suggests you will want to switch back to the CTAF momentarily. I don't know if this is universal, but the one time I called ATC directly (it was Kansas City Center and I was on the ground at Liberal) they still gave me a void time clearance. But if all you are tying too do makes sure you have enough time it should work for you at least as well as telephoning ATC directly, and much better than the relay back an forth of calling 800WXBRIEF.
Click to expand...

Often ATC will issue you the clearance and say hold for a release (in lieu of a void time), advise ready for takeoff, at an uncontrolled airport (non-towered) that has a transceiver on the ground at that airport. Even if you call on a cell phone in absence of the transceiver on the airport, you'll still have time to go to CTAF and do your thing.
 
mscard88 said:
Often ATC will issue you the clearance and say hold for a release (in lieu of a void time), advise ready for takeoff, at an uncontrolled airport (non-towered) that has a transceiver on the ground at that airport. Even if you call on a cell phone in absence of the transceiver on the airport, you'll still have time to go to CTAF and do your thing.
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That's why I said, at least as good as calling on a cell phone ;)
 
frfly172 said:
Ask the locals for the best location on the airport ,to pick up a clearance. You can also call for your clearance on a cell phone . If your picking it up in the air they’re going to tell you to stay VFR.
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This is often the best solution, ask the locals, my home field has a GCO(has for several months) but they still haven't gotten it published in the A/FD... er, chart supplement. For right now the only way to get that information is to walk into the FBO and ask. Click mic X times for a phone link to Seattle center, get clearance, get release time, click Y times to hang up, take off, call Seattle in the air on the listed frequency.
 
RDUPilot said:
Just trying to prevent this thread from getting into a chit show and other things threads turn into...:cool::p
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement. I was thinking the same as I read the responses. To self, isn't that what I write? But, POA, it's what we do. :cool:
 
VWGhiaBob said:
From a newbie IFR pilot...

When departing IFR from a non-towered airport, if ForeFlight / AFD list a departure frequency, does that mean in theory I should be able to get clearance on the ground on that frequency? Or does it mean maybe I can, and maybe I will have to get clearance on that frequency after take-off, before entering Class E airspace?

Yes I know I can also call for clearance. But sometimes the clearance time window is too short for me to set up all the avionics and do my run-up.

I heard also they are working on clearance via an App.

Any non-towered IFR departure wisdom for this newbie?
Click to expand...
The short answer to your question is: no, just because ForeFlight lists a ‘Departure’ frequency does not at all mean that you can pick up your clearance from the ground on that freq.

A departure frequency is simply the first controller you are going to be talking to once in the air.

First thing to look for is a ‘Clearance Delivery’ frequency. If it exists (even for a non-towered airport) it will typically be listed on the taxi diagram. It may be the same freq as departure, but not necessarily.

If you don’t see a CD freq on the taxi diagram or listed as a separate freq in ForeFlight, then the next best place to check is the remarks and comments section. You may not see an actual freq, but they will often list a phone number that will go direct to the appropriate controller rather than the 1800 nationwide number.

Personally, when it’s LIFR and the phone is the only option, I usually call to get both my clearance and release after I’ve completed my runup. Pull the power back below 1000 rpm and I’ve never had a problem talking on the phone.
 
mscard88 said:
Often ATC will issue you the clearance and say hold for a release (in lieu of a void time), advise ready for takeoff, at an uncontrolled airport (non-towered) that has a transceiver on the ground at that airport. Even if you call on a cell phone in absence of the transceiver on the airport, you'll still have time to go to CTAF and do your thing.
Click to expand...

You can get a release time and a void time all at once. That's a 'window.' Not as common now in the cell phone age.
 
luvflyin said:
You can get a release time and a void time all at once. That's a 'window.' Not as common now in the cell phone age.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was just giving an example of a in-towered airport with a remote frequency. That's how we did it at a couple locations I worked ATC.
 
I was trying to look at my home airport of KUIN where I happen to know you can contact Kansas city Center on 126.225 on the ground because I've done it recently. I can't find anything in foreflight or the AF/D that actually tells me I can... kansas city center is listed of course but no info anywhere that I recognize that tells me you can do that. The CFIIs just know you can call them up and open your flight plan on the ground which is how I found out.
 
cowman said:
I was trying to look at my home airport of KUIN where I happen to know you can contact Kansas city Center on 126.225 on the ground because I've done it recently. I can't find anything in foreflight or the AF/D that actually tells me I can... kansas city center is listed of course but no info anywhere that I recognize that tells me you can do that. The CFIIs just know you can call them up and open your flight plan on the ground which is how I found out.
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AirNav lists the frequency. as does the Chart Supplement.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KUIN

Airport Communications
CTAF/UNICOM: 123.0
WX ASOS: 121.425 (217-885-3319)
WX AWOS-3 at HAE (17 nm SW): 120.775 (573-221-2584)
WX AWOS-3PT at I63 (18 nm E): 118.325 (217-773-4082)
  • APCH/DEP SERVICE PROVIDED BY KANSAS CITY ARTCC ON FREQS 126.225/317.775 (QUINCY RCAG).
http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/01feb2018/ec_81_01FEB2018.pdf

COMMUNICATIONS: CTAF/UNICOM
123.0
RCO
122.5 (SAINT LOUIS RADIO)
RCO
122.1R 113.6T (SAINT LOUIS RADIO)
KANSAS CITY CENTER
APP/DEP CON
126.225
 
Does your headset have a Bluetooth or hardwire connection for a cell phone? If you can't get a release by radio, this is a good way to get it by phone after you've completed the run up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I had this happen when I flew into a Charleston airport that is non towered. When I was on the final part of the approach, ATC gave me a phone number to call to cancel my flight plan. That is the direct number to call.

When I was leaving later that week, I called the same number for my clearance. Keep the numbers for future reference. I did not have to go through the press this (or say it) for one option, something else for another option.
 
There is no guarantee or indication if you can pick up departure from the ground. If you can, yes...you can get your clearance from them but you pretty much have to either just try or have local knowledge if they can be reached. Generally it is more of coverage/equipment/geography thing if you can or not.

My home field we can and it is nice to not to have to deal with calling on the phone.
 
mscard88 said:
AirNav lists the frequency. as does the Chart Supplement.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KUIN

Airport Communications
CTAF/UNICOM: 123.0
WX ASOS: 121.425 (217-885-3319)
WX AWOS-3 at HAE (17 nm SW): 120.775 (573-221-2584)
WX AWOS-3PT at I63 (18 nm E): 118.325 (217-773-4082)
  • APCH/DEP SERVICE PROVIDED BY KANSAS CITY ARTCC ON FREQS 126.225/317.775 (QUINCY RCAG).
http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/01feb2018/ec_81_01FEB2018.pdf

COMMUNICATIONS: CTAF/UNICOM
123.0
RCO
122.5 (SAINT LOUIS RADIO)
RCO
122.1R 113.6T (SAINT LOUIS RADIO)
KANSAS CITY CENTER
APP/DEP CON
126.225
Click to expand...

I know how to find the frequency but what part of that verbiage tells me that they have a remote relay(or whatever the term is) on the ground and I can expect to be able to contact them before takeoff?
 
cowman said:
I know how to find the frequency but what part of that verbiage tells me that they have a remote relay(or whatever the term is) on the ground and I can expect to be able to contact them before takeoff?
Click to expand...

I can see where that would confuse you because it doesn't specifically say that. But that's the frequency you'd use because it's published for KUIN.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The short answer to your question is: no, just because ForeFlight lists a ‘Departure’ frequency does not at all mean that you can pick up your clearance from the ground on that freq.
Click to expand...

Most correct answer.
 
Ravioli said:
Most correct answer.
Click to expand...

I would disagree as it's a publish frequency for arrival/departure at that airport. A couple locations I controlled at did it that way. But what do I know...
 
"Can you expect" is a different question than "is it ever."
 
MAYBE.

The remote field I fly out of you need to ether pick it up in the air which takes about 2k or so to pick them up, but on the ground its phone only.
 
mscard88 said:
I would disagree as it's a publish frequency for arrival/departure at that airport. A couple locations I controlled at did it that way. But what do I know...
Click to expand...

But what are you actually disagreeing with. I don’t think what I posted conflicts with what you just said.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But what are you actually disagreeing with. I don’t think what I posted conflicts with what you just said.
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I was responding to @Ravioli , that troublemaker. Went back and read what you posted and see you were really addressing what I was saying, but a little differently. I agree CD is what you look for first, if it's listed for the departure airport of course, and then another frequency. In the case of KUIN there's an arrival/departure freq so that should work to get a clearance. Hopefully.
 
mscard88 said:
In the case of KUIN there's an arrival/departure freq so that should work to get a clearance. Hopefully.
Click to expand...

Re-read the OP's question. The question is there any way to tell if you can reach that arrival/departure frequency on the ground at an uncontrolled field and the answer is no. You are correct that if there is CD freq listed that should be accessible and published APP/DEP is where to go next but the discussion is will you know if you can reach departure on the ground or not.
 
@Shawn See post #22

RCAG Remote Communications Air/Ground

APCH/DEP SERVICE PROVIDED BY KANSAS CITY ARTCC ON FREQS 126.225/317.775 (QUINCY RCAG).
 
I get that...a remote station is one more indication that you may be able to reach from the ground but it is still not an absolute to know if it is an option at all uncontrolled fields or not.

I can reach TRACON from my field on the ground for example but there is no remote station or indication that that is even available.
 
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My home airport is just inside Salt Lake Center’s airspace. As in the FAF for one approach is in Minneapolis Center territory. If I am headed east and call to pick up my clearance in the air on the frequency for Salt Lake listed as approach/departure in the A/FD, it’s 50/50 whether I get handed off to Minneapolis before or after getting a squawk code, and sometimes they even give me a frequency for an outlet that I can’t reach instead of a closer outlet that would work, but it is basically guaranteed that the handoff will end with “they’ll have your clearance.” If there are low clouds, I call from my phone to get a clearance, because I am typically at cruising altitude by the time someone says the word “cleared” to me going that direction.

So the “it depends” answers above are all right, and the “talk to locals” answer is even more right.
 
But the truth is there's no guarantee that you can reach the published departure control frequency from the ground. I sure as hell can't here (I used to but they rezoned my airspace from ZTL which I can still reach on the ground to CLT which I can't). I've even had ZTL try to obtain a clearance from CLT for me but no dice from CLT. I just usually scud run the mile or two to the north so I'm solidly in ZTL's airspace.
 
Depends on how busy approach is but reaching them on the ground might take quite a long time to issue that clearance. A non towered field clearance with a pilot read back can tie up a frequency for quite awhile. Might find it’s easier just to call on the phone.

Issued maybe 100 of those clearances over an FBO phone...old school. ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Depends on how busy approach is but reaching them on the ground might take quite a long time to issue that clearance. A non towered field clearance with a pilot read back can tie up a frequency for quite awhile. Might find it’s easier just to call on the phone.

Issued maybe 100 of those clearances over an FBO phone...old school. ;)
Click to expand...

I disagree V. We had an a remote at an non towered airport and it never was a problem. Biggest problem was IFR arrivals to the non towered airports we served that didn't cancel IFR. Then we had to hunt them down so we could clear another IFR for the approach. Now that sometimes took a bit of time.

At Destin we had the same deal, plus even VFRs there had to call us due to the airspace there. Destin though was worked by CD position, whereas the one above was an approach frequency.
 
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