If airline pilots lost their GPS ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHHHH

Ok, I'm good now.

In all seriousness I'd go from pink (GPS) needles to green (Radio) needles in the time it took me to press a button. I'd be somewhat annoyed as my day got a bit longer and busier.

I never understood this idea that without GPS we become bumbling idiots. I'd be more worried about flying on any fly-by-wire during an EMP. Then you'd actually be f**k'd. I'd at least be able to glide under full control to an airport in an ERJ-145.
 
VHF radio communication, means they won't lose "contact" with the ground which I figure means the people on the ground.

They have VOR and ILS which is also VHF and not satellite based to help navigate and land under poor weather conditions.

It would be a BIG problem but they wouldn't all die because of it.

I'm pretty sure new flights wouldn't launch.
 
AWESOME. Although, I thought the goal of the take-off roll was to "lose contact with the ground." Maybe I'm being too literal (again).

Unlike @ARFlyer I don't even need to push a button. My HSI displays the magenta line and the green lines (active and stby) all the time. I would have to push a button to tell Otto which line to follow.

I'm getting stressed out just thinking of it. Thanks again CNN!
 
We'd revert back to what we called "green needles" which would basically mean VOR navigation. You'd would get that scenario in the sim during a pro check every once in awhile. We did have one young (Riddle) crew depart JFK and lose FMS over NJ, declare an emergency and returned to JFK. Yeah, they were in trouble w/ the FAA and had to be retrained. Awhile later I got their same scenario in the sim (unaware of their deal at the time), switched to green needles, informed Center, got cleared via airways to Toronto, flew there and return flight to JFK with a divert about halfway back for something I don't recall. The training department evidently was looking to see how many more dummies we had lol. The worst part was getting the enroute charts out and finding our airways and fixes. So no, the sky is not falling, yet. Now the coffee maker, yeah, that's serious!
 
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I love how they make hay about the things that most of the population would only slightly be affected by. Let's make the readers extremely worried about the small things and not the larger, it WILL affect you, items. Maybe the power grid being hacked or wall street. You know the things you need to buy, cook, stay warm....
 
mscard88 said:
We did have one young (Riddle) crew depart JFK and lose GPS or FMS over NJ, declare an emergency and returned to JFK. Yeah, they were in trouble and had to be retrained. Awhile later I got their same scenario in the sim (unaware of their deal at the time), switched to green needles, informed Center, got cleared via airways to Toronto, flew there and return flight to JFK with a divert about halfway back for something I don't recall. So no, the sky is not falling, yet. Now the coffee maker, yeah, that's serious!
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Holy batman!!! When I lost my FMS climbing out of EWR I just sighed and asked for a vector onto our assigned airway, while I rebooted the POS.
 
alanbreck said:
According to CNN, if GPS were unavailable, airline pilots would be in BIG trouble ...

"Airline pilots would lose contact with the ground, unsure of their position and without weather data to steer around storms."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/politics/space-war-us-military-preparations/index.html
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Thankfully it's just airline pilots that would be in big trouble, wandering aimlessly around FL350. As long as the rest of us stay out of Class A we can still carry on being a threat to public safety with our ragwing taildraggers...
 
I don't know about the E145 but the CRJ has DME/DME updating to their FMS so you wouldn't even have to go to "green needles". The FMS position will be good enough for terminal and enroute RNAV. You just lose the ability to fly RNAV procedures (SIDs, STARs, and approaches).
 
GRG55 said:
... we can still carry on being a threat to public safety with our ragwing taildraggers...
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... and flying without flight plans.

A few years ago one of the local VORs was taken out of service for a few months. At that time Delta was still flying DC-9s without GPS. TRACON guys were somewhat annoyed because they had to vector the 9s because the 9s had no way to identify the location of the temporarily-quiet VOR. I don't recall hearing of any pilots in BIG trouble, though.
 
They always throw in the affect on military ops. They still have alternate means of navigation and alternate precision munition capability without GPS.

Like what was said earlier though, the EMP / radiation effects would hamper things a bit.
 
The sky is falling,no need for a GPS. If CNN reported it ,it has to be true.
 
I've heard Minneapolis Center giving an airliner "direct Fargo [VOR] when able" after being told "unable" for a direct clearance, which makes me think that the underlying assumption here that all airliners even have a working GPS, much less rely on it to get off the ground, is poppycock. But I've never flown any airliner from farther forward than 1C, so maybe it was just a pilot who lost a bet or had a grudge against the controller.
 
You guys really need to work on your comprehension skills and bias. The article is about satellites generally. GPS is just one of the technologies they mention.

e.g. "These are not experimental weapons of the future, but weapons of today, already operating from Near Earth Orbit, just 100 miles up and home of the International Space Station, to Medium Earth Orbit at 12,500 miles, where the GPS satellites fly, all the way up to 22,000 miles in Geostationary Orbit, home of the nation's most sensitive military communications and nuclear early-warning satellites. Hyten warned that adversaries will soon be able to threaten US satellites in every orbital regime."

And, to take the quote that most seem to find most objectionable: "Airline pilots would lose contact with the ground, unsure of their position and without weather data to steer around storms"

That's actually true isn't it? During a trans oceanic crossing there aren't VORs so pilots indeed would be unsure of their position, at least in some sense. What is the accuracy of INS these days? Or is there something even better?

They would lose contact with the ground, that's accurate.

They have weather in the nose, so that's more sketchy. But it is true that they would lose satellite weather and the ability to plan in advance or see around heavy buildups (that create shadows on the onboard radar)

None of this adds up to an emergency, but neither does it make the author a joke unless someone enters looking for a failure.
 
Fly around the White Sands Missile Range and related restricted areas enough and you will encounter a failed GPS. The military needs to practice GPS jamming and they seem to know when I am in the area and then start the testing. I keep trying to tell them that their GPS jamming works, but they still practice it.

I just sigh, push the button, and continue. However, I have found a way to defeat the jamming signal. If I am VFR, I just drop below the mountain ridge line west of the area, and I get my GPS back. That puts me about 2000 agl going into Las Cruces.
 
If GPS were off, the airlines are the least of the problems. Banking, ATMs, stock market, anything that is dependent on timing. Toast. Boots on the ground in unpleasant places. Shall I go on?
172andyou said:
You guys really need to work on your comprehension skills and bias. The article is about satellites generally. GPS is just one of the technologies they mention.

e.g. "These are not experimental weapons of the future, but weapons of today, already operating from Near Earth Orbit, just 100 miles up and home of the International Space Station, to Medium Earth Orbit at 12,500 miles, where the GPS satellites fly, all the way up to 22,000 miles in Geostationary Orbit, home of the nation's most sensitive military communications and nuclear early-warning satellites. Hyten warned that adversaries will soon be able to threaten US satellites in every orbital regime."

And, to take the quote that most seem to find most objectionable: "Airline pilots would lose contact with the ground, unsure of their position and without weather data to steer around storms"

That's actually true isn't it? During a trans oceanic crossing there aren't VORs so pilots indeed would be unsure of their position, at least in some sense. What is the accuracy of INS these days? Or is there something even better?

They would lose contact with the ground, that's accurate.

They have weather in the nose, so that's more sketchy. But it is true that they would lose satellite weather and the ability to plan in advance or see around heavy buildups (that create shadows on the onboard radar)

None of this adds up to an emergency, but neither does it make the author a joke unless someone enters looking for a failure.
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Gen Hyten is not a pilot, that's one of the reasons he didn't get promoted to USAF Chief of Staff. Prior to his current posting, he was responsible for Space Command and the GPS system. He's not an engineer, either. Feel free to look up his bio. While responsible for the new GPS OCX system in development, he repeatedly spoke against it. He is, on the other hand, fairly well versed in cyber security.
 
Velocity173 said:
... the EMP / radiation effects would hamper things a bit.
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I think you would be quite surprised by the number of hardened birds up there and hardened equipment on the ground. A nuclear event in space would be far beyond simply exciting because of the number of civilian birds affected, however. Terrestrial effects tbd; nobody really knows.

Re the article, there are many errors. Also, would you really want our guys to be blabbing about our assets and capabilities to some nitwit from CNN? And would you want them providing an accurate and complete explanation of threats and counterthreats? I didn't think so.

I am reminded of a flap a few years ago where the US complained that the Chinese were blinding our optical assets using lasers. If you detected a laser attack, of course you would tell the adversary that it was successful. People rarely think this type of news through.
 
Because CNN never gets anything wrong....BA HA HA HA HA
 
airdale said:
I think you would be quite surprised by the number of hardened birds up there and hardened equipment on the ground. A nuclear event in space would be far beyond simply exciting because of the number of civilian birds affected, however. Terrestrial effects tbd; nobody really knows.

Re the article, there are many errors. Also, would you really want our guys to be blabbing about our assets and capabilities to some nitwit from CNN? And would you want them providing an accurate and complete explanation of threats and counterthreats? I didn't think so.

I am reminded of a flap a few years ago where the US complained that the Chinese were blinding our optical assets using lasers. If you detected a laser attack, of course you would tell the adversary that it was successful. People rarely think this type of news through.
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Yes, I flew one of those hardened "birds." EMP hardening doesn't automatically mean 100 % effective, especially when you're talking "super EMP" weapons being developed today. It's like ECM / IRCM. They give you a decent chance on survival but the enemy is constantly upgrading their systems.

And as I said, the radiation effects, assuming you survived the blast, present major challenges for the military aviator. Imagine flying for hours at a time in MOPP 4 gear. Sucks.
 

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murphey said:
If GPS were off, the airlines are the least of the problems. Banking, ATMs, stock market, anything that is dependent on timing. Toast. Boots on the ground in unpleasant places. Shall I go on?
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Correct, and all were mentioned in the article.
 
GPS fails?! We will never make it to work (by car) and just get lost... ;):rolleyes1::smilewinkgrin:
 
Classic news trying to create a story

I've had the gps MEL'd several times, flown long legs, short legs, multiple legs in a day without GPS. Not really a big deal. Obviously not as simple but nothing that I'd be concerned with having MEL'd......that would be the APU in the summertime! One of the sim scenarios that floats around my airline is all green needles too. No big deal.
 
Plus I have three INS boxes onboard that are basically the same version as what used to be used on the cruise missle. I think we'll be fine.
 
Um...I think they're a little more than a little confused...loss of GPS isn't a loss of contact with the ground, it's a loss of contact with SPACE.

Yes, certain pilots will be confused by that...but probably a far lower percentage than the percentage of reporters who would be confused by that.
 
alanbreck said:
According to CNN, if GPS were unavailable, airline pilots would be in BIG trouble ...

"Airline pilots would lose contact with the ground, unsure of their position and without weather data to steer around storms."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/28/politics/space-war-us-military-preparations/index.html
Click to expand...

They would all likely declare an emergency.

Five years back I asked an airline pilot if he could fly a full procedure ils. He said if he had to do it he would declare an emergency. Said the last time he did that is when he was instructing years ago. I bet they us true.

FMS dies it all and it's a button pushing game now.
 
GLMS_NC said:
FMS dies it all and it's a button pushing game now.
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Not true at all. Perhaps with the airline pilot you mention but I flew most ILSs manually. Oh ok, most of the time I left the FD up, but not always. Our airline encouraged it but we did have some weenies who used automation as a crutch. We could do Cat II ILS and that required AP on and other procedures.
 
GLMS_NC said:
They would all likely declare an emergency.

Five years back I asked an airline pilot if he could fly a full procedure ils. He said if he had to do it he would declare an emergency. Said the last time he did that is when he was instructing years ago. I bet they us true.

FMS dies it all and it's a button pushing game now.
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At small outststions, late at night, they'll clear us for the full approach. Not really a big deal. An ILS is an ILS whether or not you're flying a 172 or a jet. We fly it the same way you do except twice as fast.
 
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GLMS_NC said:
They would all likely declare an emergency.

Five years back I asked an airline pilot if he could fly a full procedure ils. He said if he had to do it he would declare an emergency. Said the last time he did that is when he was instructing years ago. I bet they us true.
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Oh, BS! Don't bunch us all in the same bucket as one pilot who can't do a procedure turn. He is pretty much the exception, not the rule.
 
172andyou said:
And, to take the quote that most seem to find most objectionable: "Airline pilots would lose contact with the ground, unsure of their position and without weather data to steer around storms"

That's actually true isn't it?
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Not really. The Flight Management system uses the most accurate system available. If the GPS system were to go down, it would revert to land based systems like VOR. If those were unavailable, it would revert to the INS system. Granted, it isn't the most accurate, but to say we are unsure of our position is totally inaccurate.

During a trans oceanic crossing there aren't VORs so pilots indeed would be unsure of their position, at least in some sense. What is the accuracy of INS these days? Or is there something even better?
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INS is more accurate than it was in the past. Nothing really better.

They have weather in the nose, so that's more sketchy.
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I don't understand that statement.

But it is true that they would lose satellite weather and the ability to plan in advance or see around heavy buildups (that create shadows on the onboard radar)
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Contrary to popular belief, we don't have all the latest and greatest in our airplanes. All we have is an onboard radar system. We don't have satellite weather capability. So that is sort of a non starter

None of this adds up to an emergency, but neither does it make the author a joke unless someone enters looking for a failure.
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Maybe not, but he sure didn't do his research on this issue. And as usual, when they mess up something I know about, it makes me not trust the rest of what they may be reporting.
 
GLMS_NC said:
They would all likely declare an emergency.

Five years back I asked an airline pilot if he could fly a full procedure ils. He said if he had to do it he would declare an emergency. Said the last time he did that is when he was instructing years ago. I bet they us true.

FMS dies it all and it's a button pushing game now.
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Like Greg said, this is the exception, not the rule.

And not only is he incompetent, he's also stupid enough not to realize that if he "had to" fly a full procedure, declaring an emergency probably wouldn't do him any good.
 
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