I hate airlines [rant]

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Mtns2Skies, Mar 11, 2017.

  1. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I'm currently sitting on the ramp at KSEA for my final leg to CYVR. This is a 30min flight. Flight was delayed 30 minutes to start. Then we sat at the gate for an hour because a passenger wasn't allowed into Canada, but they checked a bag so they had to go find that bag. Now I'm sitting next to 16L with the engines shut down for an ATC hold by CYVR. I could have walked to Canada by now. I'm on Alaskan but it's not airline specific. They all suck. I travel a lot for my work and I don't remember the last time one of those flights went smoothly.

    There is no replacement for GA. Whatever the cost it's worth it to not fly on the airlines.

    Once I own my plane I'm never taking an airline again to go anywhere in N. America
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  2. Matthew K

    Matthew K Line Up and Wait

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    If I had to travel a lot for work, I'd definitely try my best to make sure it's in a GA plane that I'm flying instead of airlines. I can only imagine your frustration.
     
  3. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Is it possible the destination airport is CYVR? :)

    Yeah, Seattle isn't that far to Vancouver. They probably get the gear and flaps up and then start their landing check list.
     
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  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oh I bet you will! But understand your frustration.
     
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  5. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    Should have rented a car. ;)
     
  6. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I prefer the train between PDX/sea to CYVR*, But today was a connection from DEN
     
  7. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The 737-900 sure was overkill. I was hoping for a DASH8
     
  8. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    It makes the new Cirrus Vision Jet look pretty good!
     
  9. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

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    I was on a flight from Newark to Phoenix the other day. A passenger had a medical emergency so we made a detour to Detroit. During preparations to land a Flight attendant cut her hand on broken glass. When we landed they both went to the hospital. Now we didn't have enough FAs to fly the trip and had to wait 3 hours for a new crew to get in. It made the 5 hour flight take 10 hours. Prior to the flight from Newark I had been waiting 5.5 hours after flying 7.5 hours from Europe. In total it was a 27 hour travel day.
     
  10. Sluggo63

    Sluggo63 Line Up and Wait

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    And none of this is the (an) airlines fault. Well, maybe the initial 30 minute delay, if it wasn't a slot time issue going into YVR.

    I'm as much of a fan as GA as the next guy, but I love the PoA where almost everyone on here can fly everywhere in the US in their airplane. Damn the weather. Damn the money. Damn the time. All these "...I'm never taking the airlines again, ever in N. America!" make me chuckle. Let me know how that works out for you. I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place for GA travel, and when I owned my plane there were certainly times when I would use time and money to avoid the airlines, but don't kid yourself, there are times and places and weather when GA just won't cut it.
     
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  11. stratobee

    stratobee Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hey, I'm totally with you. Every aircraft I've bought have been with the eye towards eliminating airline travel. I travel a lot for work like you and it's always a PITA. But, one also has to realize that having real dispatch reliability and being able to compete with airlines means having a very capable aircraft. Which means FIKI, pressurization, fast speeds etc. That can get expensive pretty quick (although there are more economical alternatives). The Aerostar I owned came closer, and it would beat airlines in time up to about 1000nm, but wasn't legally FIKI. The Turbo Commander after panel upgrade will be pretty close, but this first generation one suffers from only 4.2psi cabin, which is not ideal if you have to get high above weather etc.

    To be totally on par with airlines you need all of the above, great range, and RSVM to really be able to get above most wx. There are only so many planes that can do that for us mere mortals who are not millionaires.
     
  12. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Even then you will not be on par with the airlines.

    You are leaving out productivity. When you fly yourself you are, well, flying. On the airlines you can do work or take a nap to arrive refreshed vs having to sleep because you just piloted 1000 miles.
     
  13. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    With the exception of the initial delay I don't see much that is the airline's fault. Even if they'd been on time you still would have been held up by the deplaning problem.
     
  14. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yeah. This.
     
  15. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    It would take longer and cost more money to fly myself in my plane to the places I fly commercial every year. Plus I can drink.
     
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  16. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    I'm not blaming the airline, I'm blaming dealing with the public and lots of inconsiderate people I dealt with (I left out of the rant) and even if it's not strictly the airlines fault ALL of those delays are things I wouldn't have dealt with in a GA plane. Yes weather will cause more delays in a GA plane I know this. But the dispatch rate for airlines isn't as great or as reliable as everyone seems to believe.

    I should have been more specific in my title. I hate airline TRAVEL.

    I departed my house at 3am to get to DEN and arrived in YVR at 2:30pm. With the time change that's a 12.5 hour travel day, I flew DEN to PDX (Satellite airports) in an Archer in 9 hours. In a slightly more capable plane I could have gotten to YVR without as much headache.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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  17. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Time to spare, go by air.
     
  18. James_Dean

    James_Dean Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    With the 310 and now conquest, I cut my airline usage by 90%. It can be done.
     
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  19. RockClmbr

    RockClmbr Filing Flight Plan

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    I am 95% airline free in the lower 48 with a Columbia (Thermawing, O2, IFR, 1000nm cruise range). Usually faster when analyzed based on door-to-door, but not less expensive nor safer.
     
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  20. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    I'm as much for abandoning the airlines as the next guy - but there are times when not flying yourself makes sense -

    Consider the total eclipse of 2017- I'm in SoCal - given the balance of factors, including available and reasonably priced lodging, rental cars, and the balance of factors including a few million less poeple clogging the roads - we have decided on Boise.

    Have you tried flying from SoCal to Boise GA? In August? Weather might ok, except for the 115F temperatures on the valley floors. And the 80F temps at 11000. Can you do it at night - sure you can -but then you can't see the rocks. You've got terrain to 14000', lots and lots of peaks in the 10-11k range - then if you look at the direct route - well - Nevada is chock full of MOAs that are active almost all the time, plus restricted areas up the wazoo - so now you're dodging F-18's and TOPGUN and all the other activity over Nevada.

    So you decide - I can go around - yes - you can - but now you're looking for spot for fuel that lets you land and take off without an extreme level of density altitude.

    Pretty soon you're right at about 5 hours of flight time - maybe a little more - you've only got only aobut 600# of payload at full fuel, and four adults who want to go - so you're now done trying to plan it was a non-stop - and you're wheels up @ 6a - wheels down for fuel at 9a in Norcal - you've got another 3 hour leg, putting you over some pretty inhospitable terrain getting you in at 1pm You've been up since before 5 to be wheels up = and you've got 11-12 hours of roundtrip flying time at 14gph on average - and now you'e at $850 just for fuel - adding in parking and some of the other crap fees an FBO can try to charge - and its $1000.

    Where as you can buy round trip alrine tickets for $400 ea. take off at 1045a and be on the ground at 5 local - all in all - its maybe 6.5 hours - none of which is spent stressing over weather or DA. It's 7 hours with you flying, its 6.5 sitting - a financial wash - sometimes letting some 25 year kid fly you in the RJ is just easier.
     
  21. Mistake Not...

    Mistake Not... Cleared for Takeoff

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    OTOH, from Alabama, I'm hoping my plane gives me the ability to actually see the eclipse. I don't have to pick a single spot and cross my fingers... I have a pretty large radius with airports the majors don't service.

    I can't compete with the big guys on all routes, but for the two or three destinations I had in mind when I bought the plane, I'm faster than them, door step to door step, and I'll go places they can't. You gotta pick your battles. :)
     
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  22. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    The travel utility of a GA airplane is shaped like a donut, and the size of that donut depends on the airplane you have and what the roads are like where you live. The closest airport to me, KRYY, is a minimum of 25 minutes away, 30 minutes is more typical at non-rush hour. I would be renting, so I'd have to check in with the office, then preflight, start up,and get a clearance. That's got to be a minimum of an hour total, and in that hour the car would be at least 50 miles down the road. Figure 15 minutes to get out of terminal area at a reduced speed, but let's ignore that since the airplane can go point to point and the car has to go a little more indirectly. I'm not rich, so I'm figuring 110 knots in a Skyhawk,which is about 50 mph better than the car does.

    So, at the end of the first hour the car is way ahead, and at the end of the second hour the airplane has caught up. Does that mean the airplane is faster on any trip that's more than two hours in the air? Yes, provided your destination is at an airport. Since it almost never is, now you have to consider ground transportation at the other end. Figure 10 minutes to taxi and get tied down, a few more minutes to arrange things with the FBO, some more time to get ground transportation, and more yet to get to that destination, and it's now gotten to where that car ride has to be more than three hours before the airplane is faster. I did a little planning on a trip to Nashville a few hours ago, which is about 240 miles away, and still found that the car was at least as fast. So that's the inner edge of my donut.

    Now think about the outer edge of the donut. The nearest airline airport to me is ATL. I would allow an hour to get to the airport and 1:15 before departure, then taxi and a wait, and finally get airborne. The Skyhawk will probably be 180 miles closer to its destination at that time, but since the Boeing/Airbus is traveling so much faster, it has caught up in less than 45 minutes, so the outer edge of my donut is around 450 miles.

    Real world example: I live in north metro Atlanta, my mother lives in Brooksville, Florida. She's recently given up driving, so I'm going to pick up her car, get it cleaned up and get it sold for her. It's 445 SM from here to there. It's fairly direct, the savings in air miles is not much. I can routinely make the trip in 7 hours plus a meal break, if traffic is light I can make it in 6.5 hours. I'm flying commercially next week, I'll be leaving home at 5:15 to make a 7:35 flight, which arrives at TPA at 9:00. I should be at the assisted living place where she lives by 10:15. If I were flying that Skyhawk, the closest airport is KBKV. I'd allow an hour to get to KRYY, check in, and preflight, 15 minutes to get taxied and out of the terminal area, 3:30 enroute if there's no wind, another 15 minutes to descend, land, and taxi, and 45 minutes to get tied down, get Enterprise to come and get me and to get to the ALF. That's 5:45 all in, and the airliner was faster.

    Normally I would drive, and I see no reason to change that. If you have access to a faster, all weather traveling machine, then your donut is much bigger. If you have that $50 per hour Cessna 150 that was mentioned in an earlier thread, you may have no donut at all.
     
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  23. Mistake Not...

    Mistake Not... Cleared for Takeoff

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    Also, when you rent, it's hard to get it when you need it for as long as you'd like it.

    I like the doughnut imagery, but my doughnut is oddly shaped (it's genetic, and I'm sensitive about it, thanks for not noticing). Flights from HSV rarely go directly anywhere a sane person would want to go, so you have to do at least one hop. That adds to the cost of going someplace that helps make GA look a little better. I can do HSV->ORL in 3:15, it'd be at least 6? 7? counting TSA delay from (If I'm lucky) HSV->ATL->MCO (which isn't in the part of town I need to be in).
     
  24. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    You can theoretically do this, but unless you are sitting in first class, it isn't always easy. Especially with the big guy next to you in the window seat and the talkative older woman in the aisle seat. :) And that is besides having to be groped by TSA and all the other fun stuff.
     
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  25. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

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    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    At 160 knots -GA is 3:1 - I get three hours of driving for every hour in the cockpit. That's been pretty consistent distance wise. SFO area is about 2hr 10 from my home airport. It's AT LEAST a 6 hour drive. Las Vegas is about 4 hours by car due to traffic from my house - about 1hr 15 in the air - or 2 hours door to door. I've left my house at 4pm on a Friday and been sitting at a table at the Planet Hollywood at 615p - while my friend who also left at 4 hasn't cleared Victorville yet. Because he's afraid of small airplanes.

    Phoenix and my relatives is 1hr 45 pretty consistently. 5 hour drive easily.

    But to Former's comments - I've flown from POC to HHR to get my wife 5-6pm on a Friday night. That's what 30nm? It's a 2 hour drive each way from our home to LAX - then back most times of day in the car pool lane. It's 50.1 statute miles on the roads.

    I've left the house at 430p driven to the airport, arrived at LAX at 530, been wheels up at 615 and home drinking a beer at 7 - saving about 90 min of driving - and it was a heckuva lot more pleasant 2.5 hours hours than if I spent in bumper to bumper traffic.

    Now, if it made sense to land at LAX I'd squeeze in - but HHR is so much easier in and out.
     
  26. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Don't throw a wet blanket on another man's rant.

    Rant on, brotha! I gotcha.
     
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  27. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

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    Everyone's donut is unique, and is to be celebrated :p Seriously. my donut is drive and airline centric, because I live near big roads and the world's busiest airport. If it's a multi hour drive to the nearest airline airport and that airport has few flights, GA works out a lot better. Or, if like @comanchepilot if you can skip hellish traffic, or if the place you're going to has only slow roads or a ferry, then GA looks a lot better. Plus it helps to have a faster airplane. Whatcha flying, MistakeNot?
     
  28. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I can sleep and work in coach.
    Do it all the time.
     
  29. James_Dean

    James_Dean Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I am beyond certain that GA lets me get more real work done. The extra days in the office far outweigh any work that I may have gotten done on the plane.
     
  30. linuxjim

    linuxjim Pre-takeoff checklist

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    But why take a 30 min commercial flight to begin with. Maybe the area I'm in and TSA and all, but by the time I go to the airport, go through TSA, wait for the delays, I could have certainly driven quicker.

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  31. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Me too.
     
  32. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Okay. You've got nothing to back that up numbers wise. But that's fine.
     
  33. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    I often read and sleep, but do not get much actual work done. My last flight was a center seat; when I stood up to let the nice lady into the window seat, she had to raise the arm rest in order to sit down. Work was not a possibility, nor was comfort. But I managed a nap anyway. :D
     
  34. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    The flight was DEN to YVR via SEA, just a connection.

    Regardless of the amount of time involved if I flew GA even if it was longer I'd arrive at my destination more refreshed, energized and happier.
     
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  35. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Exactly.... and if you nap on the flight you can get more work done at the destination seeing as though the need to nap has been satisfied.
    Still productive time...
     
  36. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    That happens to me, I offer the airline the opportunity to give me the seat I paid for, an upgrade, or a refund.
     
  37. James_Dean

    James_Dean Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    I did years doing 140+ takeoffs with the airlines and now years flying myself. My wife is happy, my board is happy, and I'm happy. The airline life sucks balls, but you can think what you want.

    What #'s do you want?
     
  38. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Most of my business travel is in-state, and GA works great for that. Save time, save money, plane leaves when I'm ready.
     
  39. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

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    Traveling for work, with others, on a sold out flight, offers few options. For sure the FAs don't care about can't do anything.

    Hopefully Tuesday's flight will be better, it's a darn sight longer than the trip home from CT was.
     
  40. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    I'm not saying airlines don't suck balls (I hate them too), but just that private aviation isn't as productive. On the airlines the time is yours. You can opt to pull out your laptop, sleep or have a small meeting with a coworker.
    If you are doing the flying you can't do any of that.