How to set up to land with a dead engine.

Flyxaos

Flyxaos

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Flyxaos
Let's say you are 5,000 feet above a 2,500 foot runway and your engine quits. It obviously flies just fine, it just doesn't stay up in the air. Maybe you have practiced engine outs many times, but you have never really experienced what the sink rate is really like with a dead engine. You probably go to best glide, etc, but what procedure would be best to NOT come up short or, as bad, go long? Your regular downwind, base, final is nice, but the odds of coming up short are quite high. So?

I had a CFI that liked getting over the approach end and planning on sort of orbiting there until you decided to go for short final.

I thought of this today as I was was 2000 feet above clouds that had a base of 3,000, over Whidbey Island where it didn't work out so well for a Cardinal in that scenario.
 
This is the reason one of my instructors felt it important to teach power-off 180's to primary students, despite it being a "commercial" maneuver. Learning how to fly that last 1000' to the ground is the most crucial part, and you don't want your first crack at it to be life or death. Good idea to do them every now and again to stay sharp. It's always better to have too much energy as opposed to too little. Lots of ways to burn off excess, zero ways to get any back.
 
If you have altitude a standard pattern is best. Know your airplane and maybe plan on coming in on the downwind leg 300 to 500 feet high. Be prepared/able to slip if you end up too high on final.

To me spiraling is risky. It's a lot harder to judge what altitude you are going to roll out on. Also, maintaining precise pitch and bank in an emergency requires extra attention. I'd rather do s turns and keep my eyes on the landing spot the whole time.

The most important thing is have a plan in mind and follow it. Don't take any chances in getting too low. Better to come in high and fast and just get the wheels on the ground than come up short as the AOPA safety guy found out recently...
 
I'm aiming to take my half of the runway out of the middle. Gaining altitude without power is not easily done (gliders do it better) but dumping altitude (at least in mine) means full flaps, slow it down, push the rudder one way and the stick the other and hang on!
 
Flyxaos said:
Let's say you are 5,000 feet above a 2,500 foot runway and your engine quits. It obviously flies just fine, it just doesn't stay up in the air. Maybe you have practiced engine outs many times, but you have never really experienced what the sink rate is really like with a dead engine. You probably go to best glide, etc, but what procedure would be best to NOT come up short or, as bad, go long? Your regular downwind, base, final is nice, but the odds of coming up short are quite high. So?

I had a CFI that liked getting over the approach end and planning on sort of orbiting there until you decided to go for short final.

I thought of this today as I was was 2000 feet above clouds that had a base of 3,000, over Whidbey Island where it didn't work out so well for a Cardinal in that scenario.
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Jim K said:
This is the reason one of my instructors felt it important to teach power-off 180's to primary students, despite it being a "commercial" maneuver. ...
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5000' above gives you a lot of margin. While trimmed for best glide, I will circle over the approach end of field, on each leg of the circle comparing my altitude to the one before. Then at the right time, break from the circle and follow a standard pattern for a power off 180. Done it many times, safe and easy.
Lndwarrior said:
If you have altitude a standard pattern is best. Know your airplane and maybe plan on coming in on the downwind leg 300 to 500 feet high. Be prepared/able to slip if you end up too high on final.
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Exactly.
Lndwarrior said:
To me spiraling is risky. It's a lot harder to judge what altitude you are going to roll out on. Also, maintaining precise pitch and bank in an emergency requires extra attention. I'd rather do s turns and keep my eyes on the landing spot the whole time.
...
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If you're directly above the field, how exactly do you do S turns? Circling seems simpler & easier. And if you're not directly over the field, do you S turn as you approach it? I would want to fly straight & direct at best glide until I was directly over the landing site.
 
Whatever you determine to be an appropriate technique, here’s the key:
MRC01 said:
Done it many times
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Practice…Law of Exercise, whatever you want to call it. If you can count the number of times you’ve done it, you haven’t practiced nearly enough.
 
Timbeck2 said:
It will never be for “real” unless you actually shut the engine off. You’ll still have a little thrust even at idle.
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My experience is this isn’t really true, The difference between a windmilling propeller and an Idling engine is so small you will never notice the difference, especially with the adrenaline of knowing you are having to do it for real.

Praciting power off 180’s from the downwind is great practice for this. Practicing gliding to the downwind abeam your touchdown point at pattern altitude is also a good skill to practice one in a while.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
RyanShort1 said:
Best glide is not always the best answer...
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Best Glide is great if you need maximum distance otherwise I like the phrase make your emergency as normal as possible. Fly as of a normal pattern with as normal speed and configuration as possible.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
1) Pick the runway into the wind and mentally discard the first 1/3 of it.
2) Imagine a box of air at the key position, 1,000' AGL + or - 200' thick and based on the last 2/3 of the runway.
3) Head for the center of that box using whatever maneuvering you're comfortable with and aligned with the downwind leg.
4) From that key position aim for 1/3 down the runway until it's obvious you can land short of that mark if you wish (be sure!).
5) Add drag and/or maneuver to bleed off the excess altitude.

You can use either left-hand or right-hand traffic .
 
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Flyxaos said:
Let's say you are 5,000 feet above a 2,500 foot runway and your engine quits. It obviously flies just fine, it just doesn't stay up in the air. Maybe you have practiced engine outs many times, but you have never really experienced what the sink rate is really like with a dead engine. You probably go to best glide, etc, but what procedure would be best to NOT come up short or, as bad, go long? Your regular downwind, base, final is nice, but the odds of coming up short are quite high. So?

I had a CFI that liked getting over the approach end and planning on sort of orbiting there until you decided to go for short final.

I thought of this today as I was was 2000 feet above clouds that had a base of 3,000, over Whidbey Island where it didn't work out so well for a Cardinal in that scenario.
Click to expand...

I would suggest making it as close to a normal traffic pattern as possible, but not use any flaps or landing gear until you are on short final. Using uncommon maneuvers like spirals don't make much sense to me. Even if you practice these things, nobody lands this way on a regular basis. The normal traffic pattern should be instinctive to most pilots, so it is best to stick to the routine in an emergency situation.
 
Flyxaos said:
Let's say you are 5,000 feet above a 2,500 foot runway and your engine quits. It obviously flies just fine, it just doesn't stay up in the air. Maybe you have practiced engine outs many times, but you have never really experienced what the sink rate is really like with a dead engine. You probably go to best glide, etc, but what procedure would be best to NOT come up short or, as bad, go long? Your regular downwind, base, final is nice, but the odds of coming up short are quite high. So?

I had a CFI that liked getting over the approach end and planning on sort of orbiting there until you decided to go for short final.

I thought of this today as I was was 2000 feet above clouds that had a base of 3,000, over Whidbey Island where it didn't work out so well for a Cardinal in that scenario.
Click to expand...

When I first bought my little Sonerai, I regularly found myself about 4 miles east of Skagit regional at 4,000'MSL, with nobody else around. For those that don't know, that's just east of the Whidbey Island Class "C" up here in the liquid sunshine state. During the gray winter months, we can have a perfectly ok VFR day with light winds. But the METAR says,"... BKN030 OVC050..." and most of the GA folks stay home.

My early paranoia about VW conversion engines led me to set up very similar situations to practice engine out landings. From 4k' and 4mi, I'd pull the throttle back and try to come to a stop by the A2 taxiway. If I did it right, from that distance and altitude I had to cut the corner to the "hi-key" just a little to just barely make the "low-key" a smidge past the mid-field downwind. By the time I was wings level on the downwind, I'd already be abeam the numbers at 1000' agl. From there it was just a pretty normal power off 180. With a little practice it was not difficult. Though, with the prop stopped for realz, it'd probably be a little more challenging. Try and hit the numbers. But I feel confident that if I can get over airport property, I'm gonna walk away from it.

There's a great book on this subject: https://a.co/d/8fYvjS6
 
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sarangan said:
I would suggest making it as close to a normal traffic pattern as possible, but not use any flaps or landing gear until you are on short final. Using uncommon maneuvers like spirals don't make much sense to me. Even if you practice these things, nobody lands this way on a regular basis. The normal traffic pattern should be instinctive to most pilots, so it is best to stick to the routine in an emergency situation.
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But if you're 5000' above the airport, that's already an uncommon position to be in. What do you do to get to the point where you can make it resemble a normal pattern? That's what the circling is for.
Alternatives?
 
MRC01 said:
But if you're 5000' above the airport, that's already an uncommon position to be in. What do you do to get to the point where you can make it resemble a normal pattern? That's what the circling is for.
Alternatives?
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Orbiting over downwind until you get down to about 2000 ft AGL is fine, but orbiting at the approach end until you are short final is too risky in my opinion. This is what the original post was asking.
 
brcase said:
Best Glide is great if you need maximum distance otherwise I like the phrase make your emergency as normal as possible. Fly as of a normal pattern with as normal speed and configuration as possible.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Maximum hang time, not maximum distance. If you are headed into the wind, it doesn't necessarily give you more distance. We don't get published polars for airplanes like they get for gliders, though. I just think sometimes people misunderstand what various speeds actually do for them.

Regarding spiraling down - the Boutique PC-12 crash short of Mesquite comes to mind... It can bite you.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Maximum hang time, not maximum distance. If you are headed into the wind, it doesn't necessarily give you more distance. We don't get published polars for airplanes like they get for gliders, though. I just think sometimes people misunderstand what various speeds actually do for them.

Regarding spiraling down - the Boutique PC-12 crash short of Mesquite comes to mind... It can bite you.
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True the rule of thumb is add 1/2 the wind speed for a head wind and reduce 1/2 the wind speed (but not below minimum sink speed, which is usually about 5 to 10 kts above stall speed) for a tailwind to get maximum distance.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
sarangan said:
I would suggest making it as close to a normal traffic pattern as possible, but not use any flaps or landing gear until you are on short final. Using uncommon maneuvers like spirals don't make much sense to me. Even if you practice these things, nobody lands this way on a regular basis. The normal traffic pattern should be instinctive to most pilots, so it is best to stick to the routine in an emergency situation.
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True, not using flaps will easily account for the difference between an idling engine and a windmilling propeller.

Brian
 
I have no problem with spiraling down, but not over the approach end. Most pilots I’ve flown with have trouble with visualizing a straight in approach. Too much room for both an undershoot and overshoot error. OTOH, I have not yet come across a pilot who could not visualize the path to the runway on base. So, I’m spiraling to a downwind position somewhat higher than I think I need. I’ll make downward altitude corrections on base to give me the picture I want.
 
5,000 feet over an airport is pretty much the best place to lose power, assuming it's not IMC. You have gobs of time to work stuff out. A couple of things that would be on my list would be wind direction and speed both surface and where you are at the moment. ATIS/AWOS or wind sock for surface, GPS wind data for where you are if available or just fly a standard rate turn and see what your drift is. Stay on the upwind side of the field as you descend. Don't worry about best glide speed, you are above the airport. Fly at a speed that is comfortable for the airframe and keeps you upwind of the field (might be different speeds upwind vs downwind). Once that is worked out, maybe the first one minute of the 10 you have to work with, run your engine stop checklists and try to get it restarted. Declare an emergency on approach, tower or CTAF as applicable.
Then plan where you will enter the pattern. I'd do that at the altitude and position where you have practiced short approaches or power off 180's. For me, that's 1000 to 800 feet abeam the 1000 foot markers on the downwind end of the runway. Fly the rest as you've done in practice adjusting turns for wind. Err on the high side and slip if you need to.
 
Hang 4 said:
Then plan where you will enter the pattern. I'd do that at the altitude and position where you have practiced short approaches or power off 180's. For me, that's 1000 to 800 feet abeam the 1000 foot markers on the downwind end of the runway. Fly the rest as you've done in practice adjusting turns for wind. Err on the high side and slip if you need to.
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We agree on 95%. My only hesitation is the idea of trying to be too specific about that initial 800 to 1000. When we practice simulated engine outs in the pattern, we arrived downwind normally, not during the stress of an emergency and we still have idle thrust.
 
What I did when I had my engine failure once I'd identified the field I wanted to use was to spiral down essentially in a base leg position and then turn base and final and land.
 
midlifeflyer said:
We agree on 95%. My only hesitation is the idea of trying to be too specific about that initial 800 to 1000. When we practice simulated engine outs in the pattern, we arrived downwind normally, not during the stress of an emergency and we still have idle thrust.
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Fair point, and it's more the concept of getting yourself into a familiar spot. I've done this in practice a few times and once I'm at that point, I'm not looking at the altimeter but rather the sight picture of the runway. I had a number of years of competition cross country hang gliding, where every landing is basically that scenario. I struggled with landing in training until my CFI cut the throttle back one day on downwind and said your engine just quit, land. I had the first good landing in my month of training.

If I ever have an emergency, I want it to be an engine-out 5,000 feet above a runway in VFR conditions :)
 
I think this is a great question!
from day 1 in my primary training, i was taught patterns by pulling power to idle while on downwind abeam the numbers...for this reason.

the thought I have always had is that while this sets you up with teh sight pictures and habits to do it form that position.... and wonderful if you can time your circle descent to be at that point in space when arriving at TPA.... it doesn't serve you nearly as well if you're at some other point over the ground when you hit TPA...midpoint of the field or somewhere out above the final approach course for example....
and the mental gymnastics to determine the altitude adjustments vs glide slopes for different places just don't seem realistic, especially in the heat of an emergency.
 
I would spiral over downwind, mid field and aim to hit a high key altitude, and then it would be a simple power off 180.

I agree with aiming no shorter then 1/3 down the runway. I would rather end up running off the end a less than 20 knots than being short and hitting at 80 knots.
 
Pinecone said:
I agree with aiming no shorter then 1/3 down the runway. I would rather end up running off the end a less than 20 knots than being short and hitting at 80 knots.
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:yeahthat:

A few other points:

- Know your descent rate in a power-off spiral. If you're in a standard rate turn, 360 degrees is two minutes, so if you're descending at 1000fpm that's a descent of 2000' in one spiral. Figure it out beforehand so you don't get caught too low and headed in the wrong direction. When spiraling down, every time you're approaching your desired heading check your altitude and decide whether your should do another turn. Err on the high side. You can fix being too high.

- Plan to be high on final. Put in flaps later than you normally do, and then slip as necessary to get down. DON'T STALL. You can survive a controlled crash landing, but if you stall it and turn into a lawn dart everyone will be saying "He was a great pilot" at your funeral.

- Remember that if you're at best glide speed and then slow down to approach speed you will shorten your glide. This is a bit counter-intuitive because you'll raise the nose to slow but then come down quicker. Conversely, if it looks like you're a bit short, lower the nose and increase the speed to best glide. Better to land fast, and maybe bounce or run off the runway, than to come up short.
 
Brad W said:
I think this is a great question!
from day 1 in my primary training, i was taught patterns by pulling power to idle while on downwind abeam the numbers...for this reason.

the thought I have always had is that while this sets you up with teh sight pictures and habits to do it form that position.... and wonderful if you can time your circle descent to be at that point in space when arriving at TPA.... it doesn't serve you nearly as well if you're at some other point over the ground when you hit TPA...midpoint of the field or somewhere out above the final approach course for example....
and the mental gymnastics to determine the altitude adjustments vs glide slopes for different places just don't seem realistic, especially in the heat of an emergency.
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And this is exactly why it is good to practice power off 180's or power off approaches frequently at different airports. Varying wind conditions and runway site pictures will require you to adjust the approach path and configuration of the airplane to land on the spot you pick. No two approaches are going to be exactly the same and you need to learn how to observe the differences and the tools available to compensate for them, when power isn't one of the options.

For those that haven't done the commercial maneuvers yet... The power off one 180 isn't quite an emergency procedure, it is more of an energy management exercise, basically it is a combination of the emergency power off approach and the short Fielding landing. The main grading points from the ACS are power to idle abeam your touch down point and touch down on a designated point within -0 +200 feet.
You learn how to...
1. make your pattern larger or smaller to glide to the designated point..
2. learn when flaps and shorten or glide distance or extend it (ground effect)
3. If you have constant speed prop, that can be adjusted to extend the glide distance if you look short.
4. How to use Slips to adjust your touchdown point
5. I am sure I have missed a few other things.

The other commercial maneuver the Steep Spiral will tech how to descend fairly quickly over the airport and position yourself on the downwind or other desired position. In a real emergency it may not need to be as steep giving you more time , but he concept is the same.



Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Line up with the runway, full flaps, stick back, ride the slats down until time to drop the nose and get the slats back in with a little airspeed for a normal landing.

Or hold the stick back until landing, rumor is the plane is built to take that kinda bashing.

*this method is not recommended for certificated aircraft
 
Hang 4 said:
If I ever have an emergency, I want it to be an engine-out 5,000 feet above a runway in VFR conditions :)
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Considering that I had a loss of power* event over the Rockies in the clouds 20+ nm from the nearest airport, I'd have to agree :D.

(*partial loss of power, but 11" MP is not keeping you in the air)
 
Practice practice,practice then hope to be over an airport when the prop stops turning.
 
OP here, thanks for all the responses.

This has given good food for thought on how to practice it. The idea that a windmilling prop and no flap isn't really that much different then full flap at idle is helpful. If that is the case, then it really isn't that much different than how I was taught to land (172). Although that kind of landing is usually difficult with the airport I'm usually at (Lots of traffic and everybody loves a large pattern...) and the plane I now fly (Sportsman that stalls slow but has a high sink rate when slow).

Thanks again. Off to practice.
 
When I did my high altitude endorsement, we had some time left over in the sim and we did engine out from above the airport... 10k or something like that. I did it twice, first time tracing the pattern above the airport, second time orbiting the approach end. 1st attempt I didn't make it, 2nd attempt was easy like pumpkin pie.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have no problem with spiraling down, but not over the approach end. Most pilots I’ve flown with have trouble with visualizing a straight in approach. Too much room for both an undershoot and overshoot error. OTOH, I have not yet come across a pilot who could not visualize the path to the runway on base. So, I’m spiraling to a downwind position somewhat higher than I think I need. I’ll make downward altitude corrections on base to give me the picture I want.
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I typically do straight in landings if possible.
 
mandm said:
I typically do straight in landings if possible.
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Coming from a straight in direction, so do I. And most IAPs are straight in. I have done a straight in an engine emergency. Even the “impossible turn” is a straight in.

But my comment wasn't about me or normal ops or situations where it would be the only choice ( I would still aim for downwind with plenty of altitude to spare in an engine out emergency). It was more about what I’ve seen over almost 25 years flying with others as an instructor, mostly with already-certificated pilots.
 
brcase said:
The difference between a windmilling propeller and an Idling engine is so small you will never notice the difference, especially with the adrenaline of knowing you are having to do it for real.

Praciting power off 180’s from the downwind is great practice for this. Practicing gliding to the downwind abeam your touchdown point at pattern altitude is also a good skill to practice one in a while.
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Brian,

What type of airplane are you thinking of when you say the difference between a windmilling prop and idle engine is so small? In a high-performance airplane the difference in rate of descent can be several hundred feet per minute at the same airspeed.

I agree with your recommendation to practice power-off 180s regularly.

- Martin
 
Martin Pauly said:
Brian,

What type of airplane are you thinking of when you say the difference between a windmilling prop and idle engine is so small? In a high-performance airplane the difference in rate of descent can be several hundred feet per minute at the same airspeed.

I agree with your recommendation to practice power-off 180s regularly.

- Martin
Click to expand...

What I have seen on the Higher performance planes I have flown like the Cherokee 6, Bellanca Viking, Glasair III, is they come down so fast at idle that a few hundred feet difference in descent rate is going to be a small percentage of the overall descent rate, . To be fair about the biggest I have actually demonstrated it in is a 182, or Cherokee 235.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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